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Hacking Car Hire

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
GlasgowCyclops wrote:
I don't think @Roguevfr, 's central point is unreasonable.



The real cost of renting is probably 20% more than what it actually is listed.


I don't think his point is unreasonable either but the way he has gone about arguing it seems to say a lot to me about the attitudes and approaches in the rental car industry. Many people are positively saying give us the excess cover all-in but clear in advance and benchmarkable not via high pressure sales at a take it or leave it price at the desk.

I'd be surprised if the real cost of renting is only 20% more than headline. Feels like more.


Please refer to several of my previous posts. You may have missed the incidences where I wrote "PAY THE WAIVER" . Whether you do this in advance at an online booking or at the point of sale is up to you. It's not a high pressure sale if the answer to " would you like to pay the additional damage waiver " is " YES".
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ah yes the spitburger or "crowdsourced immunity" as I like to think of it. Why on earth would I need to display my mindset in face to face transactions with people? That's just an ad-hom assumption you are making along with the one that I or others like me "act like a ***t" with desk agents.

You;ve called out the root of the problem - the owner has a different idea of RRP to the one they advertise and take contracts at. And therefore the whole industry has set up to try to fill the gap between "expected" RRP and the amount they have trawled the customers in at. Not unsurprisingly it's that that pisses customers off.

How would you feel if you paid say click and collect for a wardrobe and then when you went to collect it you got hit with the "well this one has extra varnish on it so that'll be £50 more" and "oh that price didn't actually include use of the trolley to get to your vehicle" or when you identified a defect and tried to take it back got hit with a "too bad should have had fully inspected it before you wheeled it away" even if it was fully wrapped? The way you've argued this thread I suspect you'd say "tough titties - the customer should have checked on all those points before they clicked Buy it Now"


Even though you've expressed the mathematical logic poorly I suspect everyone agrees with you that operators have to try to operate at a profit and have a right to choose how to price their services. It's just a shame that it cannot seemingly be done dependably and honestly across the industry and therefore that most customers seem to have at least one "poor experience" of dealing where they have themselves acted entirely honestly.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 10-06-21 12:52; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
@Roguevfr, it's common sense to check, but I suspect it's not completely legal for the company not to make it explicitly clear that there is an increase in cost.

I do find your general attitude towards customers interesting, I hope that's not the general view in the industry but suspect that it is. No doubt you've had to deal with some real chancers and idiots in your time, but seems to me that your default position is to blame the customer and then come up with a reason why.


Again,I neither approve nor defend this circumstance. I'd suspect that the court case might go like this :

So the company offered you a more expensive car/service than you originally asked for ?
"Yes"
And did you ask whether there was an additional charge for this upgrade ?
"No "
Why not ?
" they used some tricksy words I didn't bother to listen to" .
And you signed the agreement without being sure what you were signing for ?
"Yes"

NEXT CASE!


At the very beginning I stated that I had over 10 years experience in the role. I speak as I find, and yes, as I've detailed previously I've had exactly those customers you mention. IN MY EXPERIENCE, they're far more common than you or others think, and I've yet to be convinced that things have changed for the better .

In many ways, I sometimes felt that I was in the strange position of defending the company from "renters" who were IN MY OPINION not going to prove to be "good customers" and in many cases were proven to be exactly the people I thought they were.

Sorry if that offends modern sensibility but it's my experience. The fact that nobody here accepts that they are in any other category except beyond reproach is no surprise.
ski holidays
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
@Roguevfr, I suspect that there's a great deal of confirmation bias in your experience.

You do still seem to be defending what sounds very similar to the PPI thing which has had mortgage companies paying out £££££ over the last decade or so. Effectively mis-selling by glossing over the points and relying on someone just signing on the dotted line.

As I've already said, if you're posting in this thread to try and demonstrate that hire companies are upstanding, it's a big ol' swing and a miss imo.
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Roguevfr wrote:
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
@Roguevfr, it's common sense to check, but I suspect it's not completely legal for the company not to make it explicitly clear that there is an increase in cost.

I do find your general attitude towards customers interesting, I hope that's not the general view in the industry but suspect that it is. No doubt you've had to deal with some real chancers and idiots in your time, but seems to me that your default position is to blame the customer and then come up with a reason why.


Again,I neither approve nor defend this circumstance. I'd suspect that the court case might go like this :

So the company offered you a more expensive car/service than you originally asked for ?
"Yes"
And did you ask whether there was an additional charge for this upgrade ?
"No "
Why not ?
" they used some tricksy words I didn't bother to listen to" .
And you signed the agreement without being sure what you were signing for ?
"Yes"

NEXT CASE!
.


Except the more likely scenario is that the customer checks the Additional charges line and notes its a lot more than they expected and thus they have to reverse the upgrade wasting everyone's time and creating ill will. When it would have been far easier for the clerk to say "We have the Supersport XXL+++ for you would that be OK it's only £X per day extra?" unless of course there was some desire to be tricksy... rolling eyes
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Ah yes the spitburger or "crowdsourced immunity" as I like to think of it. Why on earth would I need to display my mindset in face to face transactions with people? That's just an ad-hom assumption you are making along with the one that I or others like me "act like a ***t" with desk agents.

You;ve called out the root of the problem - the owner has a different idea of RRP to the one they advertise and take contracts at. And therefore the whole industry has set up to try to fill the gap between "expected" RRP and the amount they have trawled the customers in at. Not unsurprisingly it's that that pisses customers off.

How would you feel if you paid say click and collect for a wardrobe and then when you went to collect it you got hit with the "well this one has extra varnish on it so that'll be £50 more" and "oh that price didn't actually include use of the trolley to get to your vehicle" or when you identified a defect and tried to take it back got hit with a "too bad should have had fully inspected it before you wheeled it away" even if it was fully wrapped?


Whatever happened to " treat people in the manner you'd like to be treated yourself " ?
My assumptions of how you or other will or might behave at the desk are due to years of experience. Sorry if that offends you ,but it's my experience. I've no valid reason to assume you won't behave that way until proven otherwise.

The owner operator sets both what he expects to to receive as a return, AND the price his company have " trawled the customers in at" .
If the rep's are expected or encouraged to attempt to bridge any gap between the two price points then thats predominantly down to the unreasonably low prices that the customers expect/ are prepared to pay.

Ever had a delivery from a mail order seller ? The details will implicitly state that you must inspect the item fully on receipt in case there's any damage. Any defects found after this are often denied for this very reason, just as you suggested above.

I wouldn't be expecting to be hit with an additional cost for varnish, but equally neither would I expect to get the king size bed for the cost of the double because there is a scratch on the bedpost.
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
@Roguevfr, it's common sense to check, but I suspect it's not completely legal for the company not to make it explicitly clear that there is an increase in cost.

I do find your general attitude towards customers interesting, I hope that's not the general view in the industry but suspect that it is. No doubt you've had to deal with some real chancers and idiots in your time, but seems to me that your default position is to blame the customer and then come up with a reason why.


Again,I neither approve nor defend this circumstance. I'd suspect that the court case might go like this :

So the company offered you a more expensive car/service than you originally asked for ?
"Yes"
And did you ask whether there was an additional charge for this upgrade ?
"No "
Why not ?
" they used some tricksy words I didn't bother to listen to" .
And you signed the agreement without being sure what you were signing for ?
"Yes"

NEXT CASE!
.


Except the more likely scenario is that the customer checks the Additional charges line and notes its a lot more than they expected and thus they have to reverse the upgrade wasting everyone's time and creating ill will. When it would have been far easier for the clerk to say "We have the Supersport XXL+++ for you would that be OK it's only £X per day extra?" unless of course there was some desire to be tricksy... rolling eyes


Or you had asked the obvious question , "how much"? Potato pohtahto. Caveat emptor, and so on. Surely such savvy operators as you all seem to be would be immune to such nefarious vocal trickery?
snow conditions
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Roguevfr wrote:


The owner operator sets both what he expects to to receive as a return, AND the price his company have " trawled the customers in at" .
If the rep's are expected or encouraged to attempt to bridge any gap between the two price points then thats predominantly down to the unreasonably low prices that the customers expect/ are prepared to pay.


Ah so it IS the customers' fault again. Glad that's clear. It's amazing all those individual people who when they need a rental car generally need it and aren't just hiring for shits n giggles have such tremendous demanding bargaining power rolling eyes . Absolutely no way it's more attributable to the way the industry has decided to compete within itself.
ski holidays
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:

The owner operator sets both what he expects to to receive as a return, AND the price his company have " trawled the customers in at" .
If the rep's are expected or encouraged to attempt to bridge any gap between the two price points then thats predominantly down to the unreasonably low prices that the customers expect/ are prepared to pay.



As I said a few pages back, I think the lamentable thing is the crappy revenue model whereby the "sticker price" is unsustainably low and operators have to gouge on the extras to make the business pay. It's certainly not the desk staff's fault. And again like I said before, those of us (i.e., me) who use price comparison sites to minimise the sticker price are part responsible for this sad state of affairs. In that sense philwig is trying to find the right fix with this thread - "how to I pay up a bit to improve the whole experience and get fair play".
I think a lot of the problem is that (I think) a lot of these businesses are franchises and that means just because e.g., Europcar at airport a are straight shooters doesn't mean that Europcar at airport b will be. You end up feeling you can't rely on brand to predict satisfaction so what else do you pick on? Price
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Roguevfr wrote:


Or you had asked the obvious question , "how much"? Potato pohtahto. Caveat emptor, and so on. Surely such savvy operators as you all seem to be would be immune to such nefarious vocal trickery?


Actually I prefer the polite and smiley "Sure, if there's no additional charge" and then watch them bluster through the next bit. Asking "how much?" only suggests I'm up for a negotiation when I'm really not because I've booked the size of car I'm happy with.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
@Roguevfr, I suspect that there's a great deal of confirmation bias in your experience.

You do still seem to be defending what sounds very similar to the PPI thing which has had mortgage companies paying out £££££ over the last decade or so. Effectively mis-selling by glossing over the points and relying on someone just signing on the dotted line.

As I've already said, if you're posting in this thread to try and demonstrate that hire companies are upstanding, it's a big ol' swing and a miss imo.


I'm neither trying or succeeding. It matters not a jot to me whatever expenses and experiences you or others suffer.
I merely offer an opinion based on experience from the other side of the seesaw, and no more than that . Quite frankly the entire thread has had the original question answered many times .
snow report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:


Or you had asked the obvious question , "how much"? Potato pohtahto. Caveat emptor, and so on. Surely such savvy operators as you all seem to be would be immune to such nefarious vocal trickery?


Actually I prefer the polite and smiley "Sure, if there's no additional charge" and then watch them bluster through the next bit. Asking "how much?" only suggests I'm up for a negotiation when I'm really not because I've booked the size of car I'm happy with.


The longer version of that question was posed in the original post in tthis part of the thread, and your clever comments do nothing to improve the pace and efficient throughput of the transaction if it causes " them to bluster through the next bit" , but whatever works for you.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
jedster wrote:

I think a lot of the problem is that (I think) a lot of these businesses are franchises and that means just because e.g., Europcar at airport a are straight shooters doesn't mean that Europcar at airport b will be. You end up feeling you can't rely on brand to predict satisfaction so what else do you pick on? Price


100% this. Plus dehassle yourself by picking additional protections freestyle from e.g. Insurance4carhire or getting a full inclusive price through a consolidator.
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
jedster wrote:

I think a lot of the problem is that (I think) a lot of these businesses are franchises and that means just because e.g., Europcar at airport a are straight shooters doesn't mean that Europcar at airport b will be. You end up feeling you can't rely on brand to predict satisfaction so what else do you pick on? Price


100% this. Plus dehassle yourself by picking additional protections freestyle from e.g. Insurance4carhire or getting a full inclusive price through a consolidator.


That's what I do but the dehassle is a bit imperfect when you need to make a claim!
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:


Or you had asked the obvious question , "how much"? Potato pohtahto. Caveat emptor, and so on. Surely such savvy operators as you all seem to be would be immune to such nefarious vocal trickery?


Actually I prefer the polite and smiley "Sure, if there's no additional charge" and then watch them bluster through the next bit. Asking "how much?" only suggests I'm up for a negotiation when I'm really not because I've booked the size of car I'm happy with.


The longer version of that question was posed in the original post in tthis part of the thread, and your clever comments do nothing to improve the pace and efficient throughput of the transaction if it causes " them to bluster through the next bit" , but whatever works for you.


Desk clerk - "oh we've got a XXXX for you if that's OK?"
Me - "Sure, if there's no additional charge"

I fail to see why that consitutes "clever comments". It signals quite clearly that I know what their game is and if in fact they are offering me a free upgrade then it is appropriately polite. It's only if they have to splutter through the "well it's £20 per day plus VAT actually" justification and persist when I respond "no thanks then" that it adds inefficiency. Me asking "how much?" is pointless by comparison and I'm sure desk agents are trained to see that as a "buy signal".
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Poster: A snowHead
jedster wrote:


That's what I do but the dehassle is a bit imperfect when you need to make a claim!


Which is why I'd prefer the companies to take that margin themselves by offering the competitively priced top up upfront. But they won't because they see greater potential in the less savvy.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jedster wrote:
... Plus dehassle yourself by picking additional protections freestyle from e.g. Insurance4carhire or getting a full inclusive price through a consolidator.
You'd still need "membership" of something if you're to avoid wasting time with the hard sell; as above, the fact that you have your own insurance doesn't actually stop them.
Offering to give them €9,000 in cash as an advance doesn't stop them either.
The magic factor has to be the commission.

Large rental companies probably self-insure like I do, so the charges for "excess insurance" are bottom line profit.
That means that they have a lot of scope for commission. Any one know how much money these guys doing the hard sell stand
to make out of each deal? What sort of percentage?

consolidator? Tell me more, please? Do you have any suggestions? I'm kind of wary of using any indirection for example Iceland Air,
because that delivered an unpleasant experience which started me on this.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Consolidator = Platform like AutoEurope or HolidayAutos etc or any of the travel companies. For US and Canada rentals from the UK they usually price with zero excess CDW and all taxes etc included and you get a clear read across between the brands so can spot the cheap n nasties quite easily. Doesn't stop the stupid upsell at the desk on other things but I believe you can hook in memberships as well.
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Interesting. They also sell insurance. I'm amused that you can insure against putting the wrong kind of fuel in the tank wink
I still self insure, but I'd deny my own claim if it was for something quite that stupid.
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I burnt myself by declining the roadside assist upgrade last time. Unlocked car - chucked my phone and car key on the passenger seat while loading in the back seat. Shut back door and opened driver's handle within 0.5 secs to find it had auto locked itself i) which idiots programme a car self locking with that tolerance (ans: Hyundai) ii) had to beg use of a cell phone to call a legalised break in service. 1 min on the airbag wedge and she was in.

$75 down but still actually up on the cost of the roadside assist for my whole trip.
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philwig wrote:
Interesting. They also sell insurance. I'm amused that you can insure against putting the wrong kind of fuel in the tank wink
I still self insure, but I'd deny my own claim if it was for something quite that stupid.


I had one car in which the paperwork and the sign inside the fuel filling flap contradicted each other about whether it was a diesel!
I decided not to fill the car up and return it quarter full. I'm sure I could have worked it out from the size of the filling hole but at times like that you just think about the consequences of getting it wrong.

In fairness the rental company responded by charging me a sensible price for the missing fuel.
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:


Or you had asked the obvious question , "how much"? Potato pohtahto. Caveat emptor, and so on. Surely such savvy operators as you all seem to be would be immune to such nefarious vocal trickery?


Actually I prefer the polite and smiley "Sure, if there's no additional charge" and then watch them bluster through the next bit. Asking "how much?" only suggests I'm up for a negotiation when I'm really not because I've booked the size of car I'm happy with.


The longer version of that question was posed in the original post in tthis part of the thread, and your clever comments do nothing to improve the pace and efficient throughput of the transaction if it causes " them to bluster through the next bit" , but whatever works for you.


Desk clerk - "oh we've got a XXXX for you if that's OK?"
Me - "Sure, if there's no additional charge"

I fail to see why that consitutes "clever comments". It signals quite clearly that I know what their game is and if in fact they are offering me a free upgrade then it is appropriately polite. It's only if they have to splutter through the "well it's £20 per day plus VAT actually" justification and persist when I respond "no thanks then" that it adds inefficiency. Me asking "how much?" is pointless by comparison and I'm sure desk agents are trained to see that as a "buy signal".



You're really locked in on this precise wording in order to justify your point .

Despite me pointing out that the original answer to the desk clerks question was " is there any additional charge for that "? " No ? That's great ,thanks"
Alternatively, " Yes, it's £20 + vat extra per day" , "ok, well no thanks"

Your rebuttal and taking" how much" as a buying signal simply doesn't work in that circumstance. But that doesn't suit your agenda.
Your comment was intended to be " clever" when you wrote it, not during the discussion.
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:


Or you had asked the obvious question , "how much"? Potato pohtahto. Caveat emptor, and so on. Surely such savvy operators as you all seem to be would be immune to such nefarious vocal trickery?


Actually I prefer the polite and smiley "Sure, if there's no additional charge" and then watch them bluster through the next bit. Asking "how much?" only suggests I'm up for a negotiation when I'm really not because I've booked the size of car I'm happy with.


The longer version of that question was posed in the original post in tthis part of the thread, and your clever comments do nothing to improve the pace and efficient throughput of the transaction if it causes " them to bluster through the next bit" , but whatever works for you.


Desk clerk - "oh we've got a XXXX for you if that's OK?"
Me - "Sure, if there's no additional charge"

I fail to see why that consitutes "clever comments". It signals quite clearly that I know what their game is and if in fact they are offering me a free upgrade then it is appropriately polite. It's only if they have to splutter through the "well it's £20 per day plus VAT actually" justification and persist when I respond "no thanks then" that it adds inefficiency. Me asking "how much?" is pointless by comparison and I'm sure desk agents are trained to see that as a "buy signal".



You're really locked in on this precise wording in order to justify your point .

Despite me pointing out that the original answer to the desk clerks question was " is there any additional charge for that "? " No ? That's great ,thanks"
Alternatively, " Yes, it's £20 + vat extra per day" , "ok, well no thanks"

Your rebuttal and taking" how much" as a buying signal simply doesn't work in that circumstance. But that doesn't suit your agenda.
Your comment was intended to be " clever" when you wrote it, not during the discussion.



Puzzled You are genuinely losing me with your line of pedantry/non-pedantry Puzzled

Either words matter or they don't. You're fine with a desk clerk deliberately omitting relevant price information on a caveat emptor basis but not with a response that I have actually used in the real world in near identical circumstances because you think I'm being "clever" Puzzled Sorry you don't get to write everyone's script or have the monopoly on what is appropriate. My belief is that by asking a variant of "how much" I'm signalling that I'm up for paying something. It's not exactly the end of the world if I'm wrong on that because either way I don't get the additional charges on something I have no need for.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Thu 10-06-21 15:01; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
[quote="jedster"]
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
jedster wrote:

I think a lot of the problem is that (I think) a lot of these businesses are franchises and that means just because e.g., Europcar at airport a are straight shooters doesn't mean that Europcar at airport b will be. You end up feeling you can't rely on brand to predict satisfaction so what else do you pick on? Price


100% this. Plus dehassle yourself by picking additional protections freestyle from e.g. Insurance4carhire or getting a full inclusive price through a consolidator.


That's what I do but the dehassle is a bit imperfect when you need to make a claim![/quote

Answered this point earlier in the thread :
1) just saying that you have insurance doesn't mean you do. You have to show credible proof that it's in place.
2) even if you do, in the event of a claim being passed to the insurance due to you damaging the car/ (such circumstances as occur requiring a claim) you'll still be billed for the costs, and have to claim it back from your insurance, at your own time and inconvenience.
3) many locations ARE franchises, but I'd imagine it would be unlikely that they'd be at airport locations due to the enormous cost of being based there. Furthermore, the parent company wouldn't allow " non-standard" practices under their brand banner.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:


Or you had asked the obvious question , "how much"? Potato pohtahto. Caveat emptor, and so on. Surely such savvy operators as you all seem to be would be immune to such nefarious vocal trickery?


Actually I prefer the polite and smiley "Sure, if there's no additional charge" and then watch them bluster through the next bit. Asking "how much?" only suggests I'm up for a negotiation when I'm really not because I've booked the size of car I'm happy with.


The longer version of that question was posed in the original post in tthis part of the thread, and your clever comments do nothing to improve the pace and efficient throughput of the transaction if it causes " them to bluster through the next bit" , but whatever works for you.


Desk clerk - "oh we've got a XXXX for you if that's OK?"
Me - "Sure, if there's no additional charge"

I fail to see why that consitutes "clever comments". It signals quite clearly that I know what their game is and if in fact they are offering me a free upgrade then it is appropriately polite. It's only if they have to splutter through the "well it's £20 per day plus VAT actually" justification and persist when I respond "no thanks then" that it adds inefficiency. Me asking "how much?" is pointless by comparison and I'm sure desk agents are trained to see that as a "buy signal".



You're really locked in on this precise wording in order to justify your point .

Despite me pointing out that the original answer to the desk clerks question was " is there any additional charge for that "? " No ? That's great ,thanks"
Alternatively, " Yes, it's £20 + vat extra per day" , "ok, well no thanks"

Your rebuttal and taking" how much" as a buying signal simply doesn't work in that circumstance. But that doesn't suit your agenda.
Your comment was intended to be " clever" when you wrote it, not during the discussion.



Puzzled You are genuinely losing me with your line of pedantry/non-pedantry Puzzled

Either words matter or they don't. You're fine with a desk clerk deliberately omitting relevant price information on a caveat emptor basis but not with a response that I have actually used in the real world in near identical circumstances because you think I'm being "clever" Puzzled Sorry you don't get to write everyone's script or have the monopoly on what is appropriate. My belief is that by asking a variant of "how much" I'm signalling that I'm up for paying something. It's not exactly the end of the world if I'm wrong on that because either way I don't get the additional charges on something I have no need for.


Last chance . Really . The pedantry is all,yours, because otherwise your argument falls flat. I'm not "fine with" anything, since I've never been part of that conversation, or heard it said or even believe its routinely said . Simply put , if that specific sentence isn't taken to mean exactly what you want to express , then your whole theory falls flat.

Suppose , instead you actually say " is there an additional charge for that." As I've posted several times now, instead of " how much" or " a variant of that" .
I'm pretty sure it's unequivocally impossible to misunderstand that , unless of course you're dealing with another language at the same time.

Suppose instead of your" writ in stone " question " Desk clerk - "oh we've got a XXXX for you if that's OK?" (Complete with undetectable inferred sneakyness)
The rep says " hello Sir, we have your reservation here ,our records show you're a repeat and valued customer so we have allocated you an upgraded car."
" is there an additional charge for that ?"
No Sir, none at all.
Etc etc.

It strikes me that regardless for the deal you got, supposing it was a Rolls Royce at the price of a Corsa, you'd still walk out of there muttering under your breath -
" conning Fitzwilliams, that's going to cost me extra for petrol".
Some people are simply impossible to please.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 10-06-21 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I don't have an argument. The wording of the question isn't mine - it's one @andy said he had had and thought was sneaky. I have had similar and responded as I have indicated. Obviously that's too snarky for you and I would have gone in your black book of "never upgrade ever". In your rescripted question maybe I'd respond as you have suggested I should - happy days. Maybe I'd just be jetlagged and tired and forget to ask the question - still happy days if there is no charge. Only if the seemingly genrous "allocation of an upgraded car" brings with it a bigger bill will there be friction*. That's entirely on the desk clerk is it not?

*OK I can think of circumstances where I might not want a RWD BMW on summer rubber over a Focus class with snow tyres that I had booked. Or e.g. a Florida plated car over one outfitted for Colorado. So yeah I would turn down the Rolls Royce on some occasions. The fanciest SUV generally sucks at winter roadholding if its on tiny sidewalled summer tyres.


I'm genuinely interested in your take on the desk clerk psychology. Say it's not me because you are massively biased against me but an entirely average unremarkable smart enough guy walks in. He has a fully prepaid booking insurance excess waiver the lot. You know you don't have a vehicle in his size or that there will be a wait. At what point do you make the judgement whether he gets the "free" upgrade or not - straightaway on whether you like the look of him or after a question exchange while you test if he's willing to pay more?


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 10-06-21 15:47; edited 1 time in total
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I don't have an argument. The wording of the question isn't mine - it's one @andy said he had had and thought was sneaky. I have had similar and responded as I have indicated. Obviously that's too snarky for you and I would have gone in your black book of "never upgrade ever". In your rescripted question maybe I'd respond as you have suggested I should - happy days. Maybe I'd just be jetlagged and tired and forget to ask the question - still happy days if there is no charge. Only if the seemingly genrous "allocation of an upgraded car" brings with it a bigger bill will there be friction*. That's entirely on the desk clerk is it not?

*OK I can think of circumstances where I might not want a RWD BMW on summer rubber over a Focus class with snow tyres that I had booked.



Nevertheless you're hanging your entire argument (or point of conversation) on the firm and unwavering supposition that it's somehow deliberately obscuring an additional fee based on hearsay and the assumption that it's a precursor for " attempting to screw you over" .

Personally, I've never yet been so tired or distracted that I've managed to forget to ask about a significant potential additional cost. If I was so impaired, then I'd be seriously reconsidering whether attempting to drive in a foreign country in the snow was a good idea. Even if I was going to take the chance I'd certainly be open to purchasing the additional CDW , if I hadn't opted to previously. Laughing
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Roguevfr, it seems that you don't appreciate your words "hello Sir, we have your reservation here ,our records show you're a repeat and valued customer so we have allocated you an upgraded car." heavily imply to most lay customers that that is an act of freely given generosity on the part of the supplier and that you are confirming that customers should be heavily suspicious about such words and ask the "how much?" question as a matter of course. Car rental in a nutshell.

Walk into a chocolate shop. "Hello sir would you like a sample of our Mocha Salted Caramel?" Asking "how much" would be rude wouldn't it?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I don't have an argument. The wording of the question isn't mine - it's one @andy said he had had and thought was sneaky. I have had similar and responded as I have indicated. Obviously that's too snarky for you and I would have gone in your black book of "never upgrade ever". In your rescripted question maybe I'd respond as you have suggested I should - happy days. Maybe I'd just be jetlagged and tired and forget to ask the question - still happy days if there is no charge. Only if the seemingly genrous "allocation of an upgraded car" brings with it a bigger bill will there be friction*. That's entirely o the desk clerk is it not?

*OK I can think of circumstances where I might not want a RWD BMW on summer rubber over a Focus class with snow tyres that I had booked. Or e.g. a Florida plated car over one outfitted for Colorado. So yeah I would turn down the Rolls Royce on some occasions. The fanciest SUV generally sucks at winter roadholding if its on tiny sidewalled summer tyres.


I'm genuinely interested in your take on the desk clerk psychology. Say it's not me because you are massively biased against me but an entirely average unremarkable smart enough guy walks in. He has a fully prepaid booking insurance excess waiver the lot. You know you don't have a vehicle in his size or that there will be a wait. At what point do you make the judgement whether he gets the "free" upgrade or not - straightaway on whether you like the look of him or after a question exchange while you test if he's willing to pay more?


I don't have any reason to be biased against you personally, I've never met you. My opinions of you are neither here nor there and the decision whether or not to give
him the upgrade would be based entirely on his interactions with me at the point of sale, nothing to do with whether or not I think he's willing to pay or not.
Again, I'm neither employed by any rental company, or privy to employee training or tactics. I do not speak for , nor vet or control practices in the industry.

But you asked me personally, so..
Based on our current dialogue , I'd be inclined to decline your upgrade , and since there would be no upgrade there would be no need to involve you in conversation about paying more than your booked price. Happy driving!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@Roguevfr, it seems that you don't appreciate your words "hello Sir, we have your reservation here ,our records show you're a repeat and valued customer so we have allocated you an upgraded car." heavily imply to most lay customers that that is an act of freely given generosity on the part of the supplier and that you are confirming that customers should be heavily suspicious about such words and ask the "how much?" question as a matter of course. Car rental in a nutshell.

Walk into a chocolate shop. "Hello sir would you like a sample of our Mocha Salted Caramel?" Asking "how much" would be rude wouldn't it?


I'm genuinely confused as to how you expect this introductory greeting to go without you reading unknown levels of " what does he mean" into it?

Perhaps you should see someone about your apparent need to overanalyze simple sentences.


"How much" might be rude , but a simple " is it free ? " serves the same purpose without any possible offence . Perhaps a more considered choice of words on both sides of the desk would ameliorate your concerns.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ah but you'd still owe me a car and I'd still be loitering around your desk giving you the stinkeye, asking to speak to your manager etc, so at what point is it too much hassle to keep string me along...... wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I once booked an astra estate from munich airport and was asked if I wanted a free upgrade to a BMW X3. Didn`t really know what the significant difference was other than a BMW sound better than an Opel. Regretted it as soon as I saw it. The Estate was for a reason, the BMW had practically zero boot. Never again.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@Roguevfr, it seems that you don't appreciate your words "hello Sir, we have your reservation here ,our records show you're a repeat and valued customer so we have allocated you an upgraded car." heavily imply to most lay customers that that is an act of freely given generosity on the part of the supplier and that you are confirming that customers should be heavily suspicious about such words and ask the "how much?" question as a matter of course. Car rental in a nutshell.

Walk into a chocolate shop. "Hello sir would you like a sample of our Mocha Salted Caramel?" Asking "how much" would be rude wouldn't it?


I'm genuinely confused as to how you expect this introductory greeting to go without you reading unknown levels of " what does he mean" into it?

Perhaps you should see someone about your apparent need to overanalyze simple sentences.


"How much" might be rude , but a simple " is it free ? " serves the same purpose without any possible offence . Perhaps a more considered choice of words on both sides of the desk would ameliorate your concerns.


You're entirely missing the point - in the chocolate shop the assumption would be that of course samples are free so there is no need to ask the price tag. Depsite the fact that they will make a "loss" on those samples. Not so for the car rental business. Why does that need to be the case - when you use your wording you yourself are saying of course the customer needs to ask the "How much" question?
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Ah but you'd still owe me a car and I'd still be loitering around your desk giving you the stinkeye, asking to speak to your manager etc, so at what point is it too much hassle to keep string me along...... wink


"I " don't "owe" you anything. I still get paid, even if you think that I'm working on commission. Since the major complaint that most people seem to have is the amount of time it takes to get in and out of the rental office, thats of far more concern to you, than it is to me.
Frankly, I've had people complain about me before, and although I've had to explain the situation to superiors, that takes my concern out of the occasion entirely. You may well get what you wanted, and get a wee lob -on at my expense, but you've still had to sit there while the next renter got your free upgrade.
Even if you complain to management , you'll probably get the rental refunded, but that comes out of Mr Europcar bank, not mine.

It must be a strange sense of satisfaction to get exactly what you wanted, an hour after you'd have got it anyway, if only you'd been less obnoxious.


Much as you might like to think so, "the customer is always right" is a fantasy. Calling to speak to the supervisor might work, but it doesn't cut any ice with most, who've probably done their time behind the desk and dealt with their fair share and more of impolite customers and remember what it was like.
There a significant chance that you will be left there sitting with a face like a well skelped backside, while we wait for the customer who has " your" original car to return. This might be a while, since he thinks he's a little bit special, just like you.

Or maybe that's just wishful thinking, who knows?


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 10-06-21 17:47; edited 1 time in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Roguevfr wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@Roguevfr, it seems that you don't appreciate your words "hello Sir, we have your reservation here ,our records show you're a repeat and valued customer so we have allocated you an upgraded car." heavily imply to most lay customers that that is an act of freely given generosity on the part of the supplier and that you are confirming that customers should be heavily suspicious about such words and ask the "how much?" question as a matter of course. Car rental in a nutshell.

Walk into a chocolate shop. "Hello sir would you like a sample of our Mocha Salted Caramel?" Asking "how much" would be rude wouldn't it?


I'm genuinely confused as to how you expect this introductory greeting to go without you reading unknown levels of " what does he mean" into it?

Perhaps you should see someone about your apparent need to overanalyze simple sentences.


"How much" might be rude , but a simple " is it free ? " serves the same purpose without any possible offence . Perhaps a more considered choice of words on both sides of the desk would ameliorate your concerns.


You're entirely missing the point - in the chocolate shop the assumption would be that of course samples are free so there is no need to ask the price tag. Depsite the fact that they will make a "loss" on those samples. Not so for the car rental business. Why does that need to be the case - when you use your wording you yourself are saying of course the customer needs to ask the "How much" question?



Yeah , I thought it was an ill-considered and poor analogy too.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
If a third party broker can provide annual excess protection for £35 a year why does it sometimes cost more than that per day for a week's hire when buying it from the hire company direct...?
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
michaelf wrote:
If a third party broker can provide annual excess protection for £35 a year why does it sometimes cost more than that per day for a week's hire when buying it from the hire company direct...?


Does it ? No idea, you'd have to ask their underwriters. Maybe because they deal with hundreds of claims a year instead of thousands of transactions daily ?

Maybe they don't have a genuine understanding of the number of actual incidences of damage that occur, but the hire companies do and price it accordingly?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Roguevfr, I think the underwriters would know exactly the risk. It's how they work. More likely the hire companies are overcharging. Who knows, the hire companies probably have an annual policy from said underwriters at £100 per car and charge £25/day Very Happy
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
MorningGory wrote:
@Roguevfr, I think the underwriters would know exactly the risk. It's how they work. More likely the hire companies are overcharging. Who knows, the hire companies probably have an annual policy from said underwriters at £100 per car and charge £25/day Very Happy


I'd imagine that would be by far the worst deal the insurance company could possibly imagine. Sounds ideal.

I wonder how much a regular insurance company would charge for a one day insurance cover on an " any driver allowed" basis, given they charge a minimum of £25 simply to change details , add a driver , do basic administration?
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
That's not what I meant as you well know. I'm referring to the excess protection that was being discussed.
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