 Poster: A snowHead
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@johnE, I suppose that the reason why it no longer runs is that it's so easy and cheap to fly to Salzburg, Innsbruck and Munich. I've also known people find it cost-effective to fly to other airports, such as Memmingen, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Brno and Bratislava, from which it's usually inexpensive to hire a car and drive for a few hours to the resort. Ryanair used to fly to Linz and Klagenfurt, which often provided a cheap alternative to the more well-known Austrian airports.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 16-05-21 18:23; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@johnE, pre-corona, there were reports of an overnight sleeper to Innsbruck being scheduled this year. That didn’t happen for obvious reasons, but it doesn’t mean it won’t in the future. Can’t remember where the start was – don’t think it was Calais, but may have been one of the Belgian or Dutch ports.
St Anton is on the Innsbruck line, so it may stop there too. Otherwise it’s a quick switch and on your way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ed123, look at Jet2 from Leeds Bradford. We flew from there to Salzburg and despite LBA being nearly 3 hours from where we live, it was the cheapest route for a February half term trip by a long way.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@johnE, there was a Brussels to Innsbruck sleeper service launched by ÖBB in early 2020 (by coincidence I was waiting for my train to Munich on the night of the first one from the adjacent platform). Unfortunately with all the recent disruption it has been changed to an Amsterdam to Innsbruck service with the Brussels route running to Vienna. It could well be that the Brussels option gets reinstated come next winter though too early to tell. Info on the ÖBB website or the ever helpful https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet.htm
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mmm. Overnight sleepers. Such a great way to travel. I've done Paris to the Alps, London to Aberdeen, London to Glasgow, Oslo to Trondheim, Bulawayo to Victoria Falls, Nairobi to Mombasa.......lots left to do!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@johnE, London - St Anton (or Innsbruck) is 3 trains, 2 changes (Paris and Zürich) and easily doable on a day - at least on pre-corona timetables. Not sure where your 6 changes comes from??
alternative as MunichIrish suggests is sleeper Brussels/ Amsterdam/ Köln to Innsbruck.
I ’ve done Edinburgh-St Anton using sleeper to London then daytime trains via Paris/ Zürich, and also Edinburgh-Innsbruck via daytime train to Edin-London-Brussels-Köln, then sleeper to Innsbruck. Both less than 24hr door to door IIRC. pleasant trips both.
Lots of useful detail via seat61 website.
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I’ve skied Austria a few times (Soll and St Johann in Tirol) always in Feb and March. This year we are looking at our only chance is around Christmas. I can sort a decent diy trip but my question is generally how snow conditions are in December? Any advice welcome.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@johnE, ah ok. Timetables maybe affected by covid reductions, and until the pandemic starting from London was much more efficient than Lille. Fair enough.
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@jirac18,
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my question is generally how snow conditions are in December? Any advice welcome.
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I can only speak for Saalbach, where we have just our 15th consecutive Christmas.
There was a time when we used to aim to arrive a few days before Christmas, but we got fed up of being told that we’d missed a week or two of perfect skiing conditions, so we started to arrive around 10th December. Even then we sometimes missed some good skiing (the resort generally opens around 29th Nov to 2nd December, depending on how the first weekend in December falls), but at least we didn’t miss the perfectly groomed, empty pistes that mid-December often provides.
The pattern is usually that temperatures fall to sub-zero temperatures in late October and November, the snow cannons are then switched on, sometimes (if we’re lucky) there is good snowfall in November, allowing the resort to open partially for the last weekend or last two weekends of November, and then there is the official opening at the end of that month.
The skiing area is then opened gradually during the first couple of weeks in December. It’s not worth opening fully from the outset, as there tends not to be enough people to justify it; however the whole 270km is normally open (snow permitting) by the beginning of the third week (mid-month).
Much of course depends on the weather, and when the first major dump of the winter arrives - that applies everywhere. More often than not it arrives in good time to enable the season to be started normally, as described above.
In a minority of seasons the snow has arrived late, meaning that some of the lower runs may not be open; however even in a poor early season the snow cannons are generally able to produce enough snow to cover the upper slopes, as well as the main lower pistes and the nursery slopes, and thus to provide adequate skiing to keep Christmas visitors reasonably happy. We have not known a season in which that first all-important big dump has not arrived by New Year. It’s worth repeating that all or most resorts are in the same boat; a snow drought with weeks of clear blue skies affects everyone; however the saving grace of clear skies is that the December temperatures are generally cold enough, especially at night, to enable the snow cannons to operate at full pelt - a sight to behold!
The worst season in living memory for early snow occurred a few seasons ago. However we arrived around 10th December to find that about half the area was open (up to 150km), the links to Leogang and Fieberbrunn were open, and it was possible to do a circuit of the ski area. We were more than happy (relieved after all the news reports about “no snow in the Alps”). People were being bussed in from other less fortunate resorts, but, being mid-December, the pistes were still quiet.
So, to summarise, Christmas and the couple of weeks before Christmas usually offer plenty of good, uncrowded piste skiing - sometimes idyllic; however occasionally (about 30% of seasons) the natural snowfall may be late arriving, resulting in a heavy reliance on artificial snow - but even then the snowmaking is sufficiently extensive and efficient to provide a reasonable expectation of good skiing.
The period after Christmas, until the first Saturday in January, is of course school/national holiday time, the busiest week of the entire season - not recommended unless you have no choice.
A couple of other relevant points: the pistes of Saalbach are essentially grass/forest-covered hills with few rocks, so only a thin snow base is needed. Some people recommend choosing a high, glacier resort; however (a) plenty of snow may be needed to cover the rocky terrain, (b) such resorts can be cold, windswept, inhospitable places in December, (c) the world and his wife may be queuing to get up there if conditions are good but bad elsewhere.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@jirac18, Almost all of the Austrian resorts have fantastic snow making on their main runs so I echo @tatmanstours, in saying that after 9 winters in Flachau I've always been able to ski most of the area at Christmas Time and indeed at Easter even when it is mid-Apr. Plus anywhere Glacial in December is usually miserable.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@jirac18, Almost all of the Austrian resorts have fantastic snow making on their main runs so I echo @tatmanstours, in saying that after 9 winters in Flachau I've always been able to ski most of the area at Christmas Time and indeed at Easter even when it is mid-Apr. Plus anywhere Glacial in December is usually miserable.
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@jirac18, Almost all of the Austrian resorts have fantastic snow making on their main runs so I echo @tatmanstours, in saying that after 9 winters in Flachau I've always been able to ski most of the area at Christmas Time and indeed at Easter even when it is mid-Apr. Plus anywhere Glacial in December is usually miserable.
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You know it makes sense.
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Is Austria worth the extra money ? I would say yes but nothing sure you need to pay that much more though.
An Austrian resort at 1100 m is probably as snow sure as am equivalent French resort at 1400m if you analayze the cm of snow that falls, so you can stay lower at cheaper resorts and still get similar snow fall, which may skew comparisons.
I think we need to be careful comparing cost and value though, as cheaper is not always better or directly comparable
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@rayscoops, Good points, the high France altitude thing is not particularly relevant imv, it's more a function of the aspect of the slopes, how well the snow is maintained, the snow record over the season and the investment in infrastructure for me, plus the quality of the food and restaurants (and toilets  ). Not that relevant is the amount of vertical descent, if a 1200m drop as available in say Arlberg isn't enough then folks must have more stamina than me! Also a run from top of Val Thorens down to say 1300m on blues/ greens may be a long drop but is it really that exciting and rewarding? I'd rather do 600/7m drops that are truly challenging than say 2000m of smooth carpet personally, and be able to get back up there again quickly without queueing is a key requirement.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 17-05-21 8:49; edited 3 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| mikewearden wrote: |
Hello everyone, first post here so apologies if its already been discussed!
I am looking at planning a skiing holiday for 7-8 of us next year. I have always booked on behalf of our groups (last 15 years), mostly booking independently to save on costs however I have also occasionally booked through an agent.
We have skied mostly France, but also the likes of Italy, Bulgaria. Finland etc however Austria has always been on the bucket list. It's only the last couple of years where I have actually looked into it and the group are also keen.
Im amazed at how much more expensive Austria is for what you get!? For a start there is limited accommodation in the 'top Austrian resorts' and those that come within a reasonable budget (through an agent), you are struggling to find anything based within 400m of the slopes/lifts let a lone ski in out for less than £800-£1000 (incl flights/non peak times) and those that are look extremely dated and old... Ski hire is extortionate, KM of piste is limited compared to France etc.
To get to the point... is the cost of Austria skiing worth it over the convenience and size of French resorts!? I can get a catered ski to door chalet for £1000pp less in the three valleys than i can in the likes of Ischgal or St Anton...
Thanks in advance everyone. |
The lift systems in Austria are possibly the best anywhere - I am particularly thinking of Saalbach and Ischgl and you should be able to find a whole range of accommodation at not too bad prices in the former; we've twice been with Ski Miguel which is a catered chalet but sells out very quickly (and you can store skis and boots at a lift station, even though it's not that far away). Food and drink up the mountain is really no more expensive than the UK. With Ischgl and St Anton you are looking at the most expensive Austrian resorts - I've been to Ischgl 3 times and the hotels are mostly 4 star and 5 star. km of piste in ischgl is not that limited and Saalbach is certainly not limited, nor is it in many other Austrian resorts
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mikewearden wrote: |
Wow thank you everyone, blown away by the number and quality of responses!
I will certainly look into the links and info provided so thank you.
To answer the questions around what we are looking for... we are a relatively young bunch (mainly early 30's) so we like to clock up a lot of mileage, for example in 2020 we went back to VT and challenged ourselves to ski down to every village across the 3 valleys in one day, challenging but good fun and sense of achievement - I get bored skiing the same slopes multiple times! Also the Apres ski is a big factor we love. So I guess this was the reason I have initially been looking at St Anton and Ischgal as these are considered two of the top places considered for size and especially apres!
Will broaden my horizons - thank you for the enlightenment and time taken to reply everyone! |
Sounds like you'd love Mayrhofen. The main downside in the past has been the lift out of the village, but now mostly rectified. Lots of different resorts up and down the Ziller valley (good buses and railway), and at Zell and Ziller you can really travel a long way. Hintertux is thrown in for good measure. Famous for its nightlife of course, and it will be a lot cheaper than St Anton and Ischgl
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| tatmanstours wrote: |
| @Matrix, Good advice. The Zillertal holds a special place in my affections, as it was there in 1982/83 (two weeks in each year) that I first experienced the delights of skiing in Austria, as well as of immersing myself in Austrian culture. |
Might have been there at the same time - did it as well for 2 years, two weeks a time, staying in an annex across from the big hotel next to the cable car so I could get on the first lift up to avoid the horrendous queues later. Went back two years ago and the ski area is much bigger.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tatmanstours wrote: |
@jirac18,
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my question is generally how snow conditions are in December? Any advice welcome.
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I can only speak for Saalbach, where we have just our 15th consecutive Christmas. |
You didn't mention another slight advantage S-H has over many Austrian resorts; it's 200m to 400m higher than many (though the latter is mainly w.r.t. Mayrhofen so doesn't really count).
I'm hoping to go in December for the first time and am not gambling at all on snow - going to Obergurgl. I've been to Ischgl in early January and that can be very cold
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@mikewearden, One word of caution - the apres ski you've heard about in places like St Anton, Ischgl and likely Mayrhofen (never been but heard it's lively) is unlikely to be the same for the next couple of seasons - CV19 precautionary measures will limit that i'm sure.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @mikewearden, One word of caution - the apres ski you've heard about in places like St Anton, Ischgl and likely Mayrhofen (never been but heard it's lively) is unlikely to be the same for the next couple of seasons - CV19 precautionary measures will limit that i'm sure. |
Ischgl apres ski was rather...er..."problematic" in 2020
I was there the week it shut down (thrown out of the resort on the Friday night) - I just skied and kept to myself in the evenings
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 17-05-21 9:36; edited 1 time in total
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@buchanan101, no queues now since they invested in the new gondola.
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@buchanan101, us too, thrown out of Anton Friday 13th......all the apres bars closed most of that week, strangest week's skiing ever I think, we ate bread, cheese and ham in our room most evenings and avoided gondolas all week. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| @buchanan101, us too, thrown out of Anton Friday 13th......all the apres bars closed most of that week, strangest week's skiing ever I think, we ate bread, cheese and ham in our room most evenings and avoided gondolas all week. |
No way up the mountain in Ischgl without taking one of the 3 gondolas, but the village became quite quiet from midweek and they limited occupancy to 50%. No other gondolas in Ischgl (unlike Obergurgl who seem obsessed by them)
The Friday was strange (I had just cracked short linked carved turns like a pro ...in my head) and was going to download (resort runs are a bit crap in Ischgl) when I saw all 3 gondolas were running at a very slow crawl, so skied down instead. Some people were stuck on the gondolas for a couple of hours; the police had stopped them, to what end I don't know
Then it took 5 hours to get out of the one-road-access valley; luckily I was by myself in a car; crowded buses would have been petri-dishes. Police were stopping one car at a time, not even dealing with them in parallel.
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Is “Corona in Ischgl” the new Godwin?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
You didn't mention another slight advantage S-H has over many Austrian resorts; it's 200m to 400m higher than many (though the latter is mainly w.r.t. Mayrhofen so doesn't really count).
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@buchanan101, yes, that’s a good point. Saalbach is 250-400m (800-1,300 feet) higher than many other well-known Austrian resorts, including Zell am See, Kitzbühel and Mayrhofen.
I can remember occasions when I’ve driven up the Glemm valley from Zell to Saalbach, and the rain has turned to snow.
In Mayrhofen the height of the village is less relevant, as only one run descends to the village, and that is not from the main Penken ski area. However it’s nonetheless more aesthetically pleasing to see snow falling in the village, rather than rain - and Mayrhofen’s altitude of 600m is a lot lower than Saalbach’s 1,000m.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Langerzug wrote: |
| Is “Corona in Ischgl” the new Godwin? |
I thought I had mentioned it once and got away with it...
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@rayscoops, and @Markymark29, good point, and always worth repeating, that French and Austrian resorts are not comparable in terms of altitude. I sometimes get the impression that people, who are used to skiing in France, may be deterred from skiing in Austria by the generally comparatively low altitudes of the villages. The easterly location and distance from the warming effect of the Atlantic Ocean and Gulf Stream must be taken into account. It’s often said that you have to add at least 500m to the height of an Austrian resort to find its equivalent in France.
On the question of cost, obviously much depends on the choice of resort, and of type/location of accommodation, and other variables, such as whether one is happy with a burger or pizza, or prefers a three-course meal every night. And how much drinking is done! Also what kind of airport transfer is necessary or chosen (some people just hop on the public bus from Salzburg Airport to Saalbach, which costs around €16).
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You know it makes sense.
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@tatmanstours, Except perhaps Obergurgl - which is high and mostly above the treeline.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@ed123, indeed, also Obertauern, Sölden and a few other high resorts. I believe that Austria is well blessed for glacier skiing too, for those who want it - better off than France I think I read somewhere.
Incidentally I just came across this website, which says that Austria is “significantly cheaper” than France.
https://travelersjoint.com/which-to-choose-austria-or-france-for-skiing
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Poster: A snowHead
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@tatmanstours, agree that Austria is cheaper, better value and better service than France certainly when compared to the three valley's, having take the plunge on StAnton which was a revelation, happy for your to split the bill , no issue with sitting at any table ( in Les Acrs we sat at a table for lunch at 1pm and were advised that it was a drinks only table, even though we were a group of 10!) , they show to a table and give you a menu and ask if you would like a drink, you aren't invisible .
Don't get me wrong I love the French Alps and have skied a few resorts over the years, however now it's just Austria and Saalbach, not saying its perfect, but the choice of mountain restaurants is a lot better, the food offering is pretty decent in Saalbach, you can blow the budget or have a burger form the snack bar, there is a decent choice of bars catering to all tastes , still not sure about the table top bars.
I've only really had one poor experience that was in the Summer with the people who have the ice cream place in Hinterglemm.
As @tatmanstours, has said just over an hour from Salzburg airport which is a joy compared to Lyon, Grenoble or Geneva 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@radar, please keep quiet regarding the relative merits of Austria and France. Please let the uninitiated find this out for themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@skimastaaah, I would venture that Austria is pants and everyone should live it up in France instead.....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| esaw1 wrote: |
| @skimastaaah, I would venture that Austria is pants and everyone should live it up in France instead..... |
My sentiments exactly. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Austrians protest too much. If it’s so good you shouldn’t have to continually promote it
I went there once and it was tragic.....St Anton in Jan 18, rock hard icy pistes, relatively expensive lift pass, much more expensive food than I was used to in PdS and music to make your ears bleed. Can’t stand that ‘sweet Caroline’ happy euro trash.
Never going back. The most overrated holiday ever.
And since when do you have to add 500m to compare altitude? Wasn’t it actually colder in France this year?
Anyway I’m just highlighting there is huge amount of bias here, and again, like property discussions, almost pointless to compare/ generalize. You can literally come up with a 1000 different examples and say I told you so....my Austrian experience was not worth the extra/ hype
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@skimastaaah, a moment of madness!
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| polo wrote: |
Austrians protest too much. If it’s so good you shouldn’t have to continually promote it
I went there once and it was tragic.....St Anton in Jan 18, rock hard icy pistes, relatively expensive lift pass, much more expensive food than I was used to in PdS and music to make your ears bleed. Can’t stand that ‘sweet Caroline’ happy euro trash.
Never going back. The most overrated holiday ever.
And since when do you have to add 500m to compare altitude? Wasn’t it actually colder in France this year?
Anyway I’m just highlighting there is huge amount of bias here, and again, like property discussions, almost pointless to compare/ generalize. You can literally come up with a 1000 different examples and say I told you so....my Austrian experience was not worth the extra/ hype |
You did choose possibly the most expensive resort in Austria.
Agree with you on Eurotrash - one particular bar up the mountain in Ischgl is just horrid because of the music playing outside (I guess anyone who has been to Ischgl will know the one, whether they like the music or not).
You add 500m to get rough equivalence as France tends to be warmer at the same altitude - more Atlantic v continental influence
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@polo, I’m partially in agreement. Whilst it may be natural for people to enthuse about something good that they have discovered, it serves absolutely no useful purpose to try to persuade anyone to desert the slopes of France in favour of Austria. If that were to happen to any significant extent, we’d all be raving about the quietness of French resorts!
Your experience of St Anton might have been replicated in one of many French resorts. I imagine that anyone used to skiing in the Ski Welt, the Ski Amade, or the Ski Circus, or many other areas of Austria, might well have encountered such conditions and relatively high prices on visiting the 3Vs, the Espace Killy or the Paradiski for a week in “January ‘18”.
However many will agree about the “music”. It’s a mystery why a nation that is famed for its musical heritage and produced all those famous composers - Mozart, Strauss, Liszt, et al - should display such appalling taste. This could be a subject for a discussion in itself. The Austrians seem to think that any “ear worm” music is good to party to, and that tourists both expect to hear and appreciate such “music” in Austrian ski resorts. It can become a “race to the bottom”, with après-ski bars competing with and trying to “out-party” each other.
That said, many Brits of my acquaintance do seem to enjoy such typical Austrian cheesy après-ski party music and would be disappointed if they didn’t hear it. However this season has of course been totally different. None of it has been heard, and the only sound on the pistes has been the occasional twittering of a bird. Although most people don’t mind a rousing rendition of “Sweet Caroline” to accompany their après-ski beer, I don’t think anyone has missed “Jonny Dapp” or “Die Mutter von Nikki Lauda”. Who knows what the future holds?
Your implication that there is no difference in snow quality/reliability between French and Austrian resorts at the same altitude is however unfounded. Many Austrian resorts that are between 600-800m in altitude seem to be able to maintain a successful winter sports tourism industry. Comparing altitudes of resorts at different latitudes and longitudes is fairly pointless, although it’s probably fair to say, as a rule of thumb, that a typical Austrian village at 1,000m has comparable snow conditions with a resort in the western Alps at 1,500m (or possibly even higher).
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FAQ
