 Poster: A snowHead
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After five cancelled trips in 2020/2021 to the Alps, am now looking at Christmas 2021. Not convinced France will have its act together in time (and we're going to the 3Vs at HT 2022 anyway), so North America it is. Mum, dad, 3 teenagers (13-17). Dad and middle lad are very keen and reasonably handy (we were meant to be in Verbier for 5 days of off-piste guiding--our first proper foray into off-piste--at New Years 2021  ) . Youngest can largely keep up on piste*. Mum**, well, there's a spa. Oldest will have access to Call of Duty after mornings filled with mandatory fun. This trip is a goer because I've promised non-skiing activities. In the interest of contrast, I've narrowed it down to 10 - 14 days in either (1) Whistler with a couple of days in Vancouver or (2) Jackson Hole with a side trip to Yellowstone. While Jackson is too much mountain for at least 3/5 of the party, this is a rare-probably not-to-be-repeated-for-years-opportunity to ski there. Assuming the less-keen skiers are equally happy with the non-skiing activities on offer in either venue, what does the hive mind say for the quality and reliability of the skiing on offer in late December between the two?
* Will get chucked into intensive ski school because to have 2 strong skiing lads would be epic 
** Hates heights, speed, the sensation of sliding, falling over and the cold. But she gamely skis at HT every year and goes out with a private instructor to the point where she can navigate most of Courchevel 1850 and Jerusalem down to St Martin-d-B. A legend, if more people spent more time outside their comfort zone, the world would be a more interesting place.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jackson Hole for the experience, the extras, inc the village, dog sledding, Yellowstone etc etc. the skiing off and to the skiers left of Bridger Gondola was all fairly tame and well groomed when I was there.
but Whistler sounds like the skiing might suit your group a bit more....
I had a new year week there and thoroughly enjoyed it!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Whistler has more variety of skiing as it's a much bigger mountain. Especially if you're talking 14 day trip, with ~10 days of actual skiing. Jackson might be limiting for the less keen contingent of the family.
That said, Jackson has more in town non-skiing activities. Would make it easier to split the family in the middle of the trip, or even middle of the day. Mum goes to the Elk Refuge while Dad huck off Corbett's! 
In short, Jackson wins on non-skiing activities. Whistler wins on skiing.
Jackson might actually be less expensive. Also, you're extremely likely to be able to enter the US. Slightly less certain about entering Canada.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think Jackson Hole is the best ski area in North America, and Whistler is in the conversation. Some factors to consider about both: @ JH, you won't be able to get the full Yellowstone experience you mentioned in winter as most of the park is shut down. You can see a herd of Elk eat hay, not real exciting. Also note that the ski area is at Teton Village which has next to nothing for the non-skiers; the town of Jackson is not far away, but a shuttle or paid parking is the deal. I've found the middle market for lodging is weak, but there are plenty of cheap and expensive options. Probably going to be less crowded than Whistler during what is the most crowded week of the season. Don't worry about JH's deserved reputation for expert skiing; there's plenty for everybody even over two weeks. Whistler is easily better for your non-skiers, but the skiers should be ready for the possibility of rain and low coverage, as that week is still on the early side in terms of base. Its bigger provided the visibility allows the terrain to be opened. But Whistler also gives you Vancouver, a great city. I'll end it this way: going to Whistler would not be a mistake at all, but it is very similar to many other large "corporate" resorts: great skiing with a mall at the base. Jackson Hole is Jackson Hole for a reason. Let the skiers win this one and go there.
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Personally, I think there's more chance of Europe being open than Canada at Christmas but that's a whole different conversation with lots of speculation and little concrete facts.
Both are decent choices. I'd favour Whistler slightly for a few reasons.
I think Whistler is a better option for those not so interested in skiing. Lots of non-skiing activities and lots of easy skiing. Also a little less faff factor as said above the ski base is not actually in Jackson so you have to commute to and from Jackson or be based at Teton where there's not much in terms of non-skiing (it's not a deal-breaker but its an additional obstacle for perhaps the more reluctant).
Both have plenty of off-piste and expert terrain. If you haven't done much off-piste yet I'd probably save Jackson for when the kids are a bit older and you all have a bit more experience and can really get the most out of it.
If you are going to Whistler you can buy an epic pass for unlimited skiing. The pass also includes 7 days free skiing at 3V meaning you would save the cost of buying lift passes for your HT trip.
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The other thing with Whistler is that they have a blue or green route down off pretty much every lift, so it's possible to ski as a mixed group pretty easily. For example you could lap harmony chair with half going down the groomed blues (harmony ridge, harmony piste, GS) and half doing the more advanced off piste stuff (harmony horeshoes, boomer bowl, boot chutes etc.). Lots of nice easy cruisers off crystal and 7th heaven while the more advanced can can off piste and in the trees too.
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| Quote: |
@Dyrlac, there's plenty of stupid stuff to throw yourself off in Whistler, so the presence/absence of Corbett's should not be the deciding factor
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Yep, at both resorts there are plenty of lines that will be way outside your ability (I don't mean this as an insult to your ability, more just saying they are really expert only kind of stuff). You will be suitably challenged at both places.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You're not really comparing like with like there.
I'm not sure what the European equivalent of that would be. Not individually analogous, but it's a bit like comparing Chamonix with Sölden.
They're different, but which is "better" depends on what you want, when and why. And mostly they're not delivering the same things at all.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@philwig: I know, it is a deliberate contrast w/r/t non-skiing activities, you can take it as read that the group will be happy with either from that aspect. The existence of good (i.e., worth the trip from the UK) non-skiing activities is critical, which is why it's down to these two. From a skiing standpoint, I'm also interested in which resort is likelier to have better conditions in the back half of December, or if that's a request for a meaningless FI prediction, if both Jackson and Whistler have poor snow cover or terrible weather, which one would you choose to ski at (I will ski in any conditions and on the terrain available: I took up the sport 30 years too late and have been trying to make up for lost time ever since)?
@boarder2020: don't worry, no insult taken, I am painfully aware of my manifest room for improvement!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
From a skiing standpoint, I'm also interested in which resort is likelier to have better conditions in the back half of December, or if that's a request for a meaningless FI prediction
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I don't think there's too much in it. Both usually open end of November time. The last 3 Decembers have had lots of snow at both resorts. Whistler there is always a small risk of pineapple express, from Jackson you have grand targhee which as said above is as aboutsnowsure as anywhere. You'd be unlucky to not have decent to great conditions at either, especially over 10 days.
Like I said before I don't think either is a bad choice. I do think Whistler edges it though. It offers more memorable options for intermediate skiers; doing peak to creek down to Dusty's for a pulled pork sandwich is a classic, blackcomb glacier is a great intermediate adventure, skiing the Dave Murray down hill run that was used for the Olympics is another great experience (yes should be ok for an intermediate when nicely groomed first thing). You also have that sense of travel as the area covers two huge mountains which I think would keep beginners more interested. On the other hand I can't think of any "memorable" blue run at Jackson (to be fair it wasn't what I was looking fo so maybe I missed them).
Off the slopes the unique Whistler attraction has to be having a pro driver take you down the Olympic bobsled track. You can even go down a bit of it lying face first on a skeleton. Even as an adult I won't forget those things! Fire and ice show is also nice. Add in a hockey game in Vancouver for the Canadian experience. Of course there are plenty of other things which are nice but more "normal" e.g. snowshoeing, zip wires, museums etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@boarder2020, interesting views, personally (and having never been to Whistler) I’d go back to Jackson for the experience, especially the cowboy village, pub with horse saddles, the Tetons, Yellowstone etc etc. Something I don’t think I can get in Europe. From what I’ve read/heard/bloke down the pub told me  but Whistler seems to me like trying to be a mega Euro resort like Trois Vallees???
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 25-03-21 20:47; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Difficult to say which would have best conditions, possibly Jackson, but if its a bad year maybe not. If you do go to Jackson take a day to ski Targhee, better snow and very quiet in comparison. Well worth the drive, if you dont hire a car they run a bus trip over, or they used to.
You're looking at a western town, boots 'n' spurs on boardwalks, with tourist emporiums thrown in, to purpose built resort, likened to Disney does Snow. Both would suit the bill, Jackson has plenty for intermediates too - people do learn to ski there .
It comes down to what you really want to do on the non skiing days - Yellowstone etc. or City.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kitenski wrote: |
| @boarder2020, interesting views, personally (and having never been to Whistler) I’d go back to Jackson for the experience, especially the cowboy village, pub with horse saddles, the Tetons, Yellowstone etc etc. Something I don’t think I can get in Europe. From what I’ve read/head/bloke down the pub but Whistler seems to me like trying to be a mega Euro resort like Trois Vallees??? |
Yep, that's how I see it too.
Whistler is a half way between Europe and North America. Jackson is more of a distinctly different experience. I find the village of Jackson much more interesting.
Given average snow condition, Whistler win in terrain variety. But there's the risk of rain at that time of year. Jackson on the other hand, runs a different risk. It may or may not get enough snow to open some of the steeper runs at that time of year.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@kitenski I thought the cowboy stuff was fun, but a little ott and fake. Let's be honest, Jackson is not some little local ski town filled with friendly locals - it's becoming a place for the super rich to buy $1.5million+ houses. I'm not saying Whistler is any better. But I don't think OP is looking for an authentic North American town anyway, Whistler and Jackson hole fit his families needs much more than somewhere like rossland or Terrace.
I'm not really sure Whistler is trying to be European. It generally gets compared to Europe mega resorts because of its size and because the town of Whistler is actually the base of the resort - which is not true of most places in America where you stay in a town and drive to the resort each day e.g. Jackson where ski resort is at Teton village and the town of Jackson, where most of the entertainment is, is a short drive.
Like I said I think Whistler has a lot of really memorable runs for intermediates. Peak to creek, blackcomb glacier, skiing the Olympic downhill run all stand out much more than some random blue at Jackson. Even going out to symphony can be a mini adventure. Maybe I am wrong, like I say I wasn't particularly looking for that stuff at Jackson. That's not to say there isn't intermediate skiing at Jackson I just don't think of it as being particularly memorable or offering an experience.
I imagine Yellowstone is beautiful. But overall I think Whistler + Vancouver offer more off snow activities. Of course it depends what exactly you want from off snow activities. If you were doing Jackson hole + New York the balance might well shift to that as I think NYC is a lot better than Vancouver.
Of course a lot comes down to personal preference. Both should provide a good holiday for the family.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| But I don't think OP is looking for an authentic North American town anyway, Whistler and Jackson hole fit his families needs much more than somewhere like rossland or Terrace. |
This x1000. I grew up in an authentic North American town and moved to London as soon as possible. The brief was skiing in a place within reasonable striking distance of enough interesting stuff to do/see that the family hasn't done/been to before (including ludicrous cowboy kitsch, and a 100% chance of returning to the UK with stetsons (or worse, cowboy boots) for the whole family). If I was just after authenticity, La Tania is good enough for me. 
The only other contender I though of was something like San Francisco + Heavenly (for example). Albequerque/Santa Fe + Taos? Yellowstone + Big Sky? We thought about doing both Jackson Hole and Big Sky with Yellowstone in the middle, but thought we'd lose too many skiing days. I've been to both Denver and SLC and I don't think either fit the bill as interesting enough destinations in their own right (although at this point the Canadians will be wondering, "so you thought Vancouver was interesting enough?").
No. 2 (and hopefully No. 3) and I will do ski-only trips into deepest Canada when they're older.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| I imagine Yellowstone is beautiful. |
So you haven't been? Really?
If that's true, you really aren't in a position to make any comparison between Jackson and Whistler.
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But overall I think Whistler + Vancouver offer more off snow activities. Of course it depends what exactly you want from off snow activities. If you were doing Jackson hole + New York the balance might well shift to that as I think NYC is a lot better than Vancouver.
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Let's just say Yellowstone is unique. Vancouver is not.
| Quote: |
| @kitenski I thought the cowboy stuff was fun, but a little ott and fake. Let's be honest, Jackson is not some little local ski town filled with friendly locals - it's becoming a place for the super rich to buy $1.5million+ houses. I'm not saying Whistler is any better. But I don't think OP is looking for an authentic North American town anyway |
He didn't say he specifically look for such. But fake or otherwise, Jackson is as close to the American west as it gets short of staying in a dude ranch in Montana! It's like visiting Paris but saying the Eiffel Tower is just a bunch of steel bars.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| ... I thought the cowboy stuff was fun, but a little ott and fake. Let's be honest, Jackson is not some little local ski town filled with friendly locals - it's becoming a place for the super rich to buy $1.5million+ houses. I'm not saying Whistler is any better. But I don't think OP is looking for an authentic North American ... |
I'm just laughing at people thinking ski resorts are "real" in any meaningful way. The clue's in the "resort" part of the name. They are built for tourists.
If you really want less stuff purpose built for you, then you need to go much smaller and off the advertised/ beaten track.
Provo in Utah or Abbortsford in BC for example. Then drive to the local hills where you'll find... not what you expect, I'd guess.
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| Quote: |
So you haven't been? Really?
If that's true, you really aren't in a position to make any comparison between Jackson and Whistler.
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Of course I am. There's people that have only visited one or the other and are welcome to an opinion. I didn't go to Yellowstone as had limited time and was more interested in snowboarding than visiting a national park. As beautiful as Yellowstone looks in the photos I could name countless other places I'd rather visit in USA, including other national parks. That's why I say a lot of this stuff comes down to personal preference.
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Let's just say Yellowstone is unique. Vancouver is not
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I would say Vancouver is unique in its own way. (Although no I don't think it is one of the more interesting cities in the world to visit). He never said they are looking for unique though - simply a place with lots of non-skiing activities. I suspect there are other places in the world you can take a bobsleigh down an Olympic track, but that didn't lessen my enjoyment of doing it at Whistler!
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I didn't go to Yellowstone as had limited time and was more interested in snowboarding than visiting a national park. As beautiful as Yellowstone looks in the photos
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@boarder2020, you're comparing what you see on photos? Well, I'd thought the OP had see the same photos too. What do you add to what he can also see?
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| There's people that have only visited one or the other and are welcome to an opinion. |
Yes, there're such people. I frankly don't understand there's any value of their "opinion".
Yes, it's the internet. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just some opinions are intrinsically more valuable than others.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dyrlac wrote: |
The only other contender I though of was something like ...Yellowstone + Big Sky? |
That's actually a very good combo, if it were for the latter part of the season. Christmas isn't the best for Big Sky.
Jackson "usually" has better condition for early season.
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@abc some of us would rather snowboard than visit a national park. Like I said Yellowstone looks nice, but I've seen geysers and coloured lakes in the Peruvian Altiplano before (arguably a more "unique" landscape than Yellowstone ), and have very little interest in visiting Yellowstone. YMMV, The world would be a pretty boring place if we all had the same interests! The idea that because someone hasn't done a side trip from a ski resort to a local attraction means they can have no opinion on that resort is just silly. It's like me saying anyone that skied in the dolomites and didn't visit Venice or skied revy and didn't spend a day touring at Rogers pass can't have an opinion on those resorts. Of course they can, and their opinions can offer a great insight. The OP is looking at spending potentially 1 day of his trip at Yellowstone, so it's not something to get so worked up about. You seem more interested in arguing with me than actually making constructive points regarding OPs trip.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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A quick update. A poll of the household (taking on board these comments (although No. 1 tells me that they play Counterstrike, not CoD)) is still inconclusive. No. 2's reviews of youtube videos and obsessive trail map study is leaning him towards Whistler (he likes to put kilometres under skis and still hasn't forgiven me for tearing my calf halfway through a 3V Escapade attempt in HT2020).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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But you did put Vancouver above Yellowstone, while without visiting Yellowstone. But you can't see what's wrong with that! Shocked
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I never said Vancouver is better than Yellowstone. In fact I said "I would say Vancouver is unique in its own way. (Although no I don't think it is one of the more interesting cities in the world to visit" - which I would hardly consider glowing praise of Vancouver! I do think the combo of Whistler and Vancouver has MORE non-skiing activities than Jackson and the surrounding area. If they are better or not really depends on personal interests, it's pretty hard to directly compare a city to a national park.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dyrlac, to be honest and to try and stop the off topic stuff I reckon you’d have a cracking holiday in either place!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I’ve been to both. Both great. Snow quality is important to me so I’d go for Jackson/Targhee. I love Jackson town too. Yellowstone in winter is lovely.
If snow quality and quantity is a measure you value check out the Cottonwoods. SLC may lack appeal though.
Only caveat to Jackson is I would not go there after mid February due to less than optimal orientation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You have 2 factors to consider. 1. Where do you live relative to the ski resorts and which country will let you in. It is far more likely the US will open before Canada does although it could be at that time that the Canada/US border is open. 2. Ski conditions. While both places may be open the better conditions will be Jackson.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimachine wrote: |
| You have 2 factors to consider. 1. Where do you live relative to the ski resorts and which country will let you in. It is far more likely the US will open before Canada does although it could be at that time that the Canada/US border is open. 2. Ski conditions. While both places may be open the better conditions will be Jackson. |
there's is literally no way of knowing which resort will have the better conditions at that time of year this far out , early season skiing in the last few years has become a bit of lottery in all regions 
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I have been to both resorts over the past couple years and it is an easy choice. Whistler is the biggest resort in North America with a great town and a good snow record. Your kids can go off on their own adventure on the mountain and not see you all day and vice versa. The Scandinave Spa (https://www.scandinave.com/whistler/en/) is, for those who enjoy the spa-experience, a paradise. The Canadian dollar is weak against the pound, the euro and the American dollar. You save money! Most of the lodging is right near the slopes. You don't need a car. There is plenty of good shopping, apres and dining. It hosted the Winter Olympics. And Vancouver is only 1.5 hours away by bus. An ideal town for a weekend excursion.
Jackson Hole is a great resort, no doubt. It is beautiful and there are some wonderful, challenging pistes. But it is a third the size of Whistler. Most people stay in town, which is a 20 minute drive from the ski lifts. It is at least 2 separate flights to the area, if you're coming from the UK or the EU. The Cowboy thing is kinda cool. Wyoming is the real Wild West. But there is also a lot of kitsch that surrounds it. Odds are you're going to have at least one bad meal. But then I didn't try fine dining there. Jackson Hole is ideally a weekend resort.
Yellowstone Park and the Grand Tetons are wonderful! I would save them for a Summer trip, though. These areas come alive in warmer weather.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Most of the above comments are good. One of the things to bear in mind that Xmas is unlikely to be peak snow conditions at either place unless there has been an epic December e.g. for Jackson I don't think Corbetts would be open and the Hobacks could well be pretty scratchy.
Also for accomodation yep Teton Village will be very expensive but you can stay in Jackson really affordably. Double heading Jackson with Big Sky is plenty doable barring the worst storms and would allow you to drive to West Yellowstone after skiing en route for better access to the park ( if it were me I'd leave JH early, have a day at Targhee and drive on up to W Yellowstone after).
I wouldn't travel just to go to Yellowstone however in winter as options are so restricted. My best visit was early May just after some of the roads had opened - still limited access - basically Mammoth -Old Faithful - West Yellowstone but quiet enough to see a wolf pack across the river, bald eagles a plenty etc
That said Whistler is an easy option, it's just not particularly Canadian or anything. There's skiing easily as tough as JH and a bigger lift accessed area in which to do it.
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I'm a repeat visitor to both Jackson and Whistler and agree with most of what's been written above.
Based on @Dyrlac's original requirements, I would lean toward Jackson but definitely stay in town rather than on the hill. Whistler village is just another ski resort, but Jackson has real character. It's a great place for members of the party who want to do more than ski. There aren't many other places where you'll find someone casually unloading a dead elk from the back of their pickup in a suburban street.
Yellowstone in winter is a once-in-a-lifetime experience that I definitely would not want to miss. I've read negative reports from some people, but the combination of breathtaking scenery, the raw power of nature and abundant wildlife is incredible if you appreciate that kind of thing.
Jackson has much more mellow skiing than its repuation might suggest, but those in search of long groomers might be bored after two weeks. I would suggest solving the problem by taking a day out at Grand Targhee and having a two-centre trip with Big Sky. You don't need to lose any skiing days - leave Jackson after the lifts close, overnight in West Yellowstone, visit the park the next day, drive to Big Sky in the evening, and carry on skiing the next day. Then fly home from Bozeman. Both resorts are on the Ikon pass so the only problem is that you might have to pay a little more for open-jawed flights and one-way car hire.
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Just a clarification that the Ikon Pass only works at Jackson Hole if you buy the full pass (the Ikon Base Pass requires a $150 surcharge for JH and Aspen), and also these passes are not available throughout the season, only early (as in now). They are a good bet, but you have to make your bet early.
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Thanks for all of the spirited feedback everyone. It was very helpful. Notwithstanding the late push from the Jackson partisans, we've opted for Whistler. Key factors being: less of a faff to get there from the UK, a more accessible and varied mountain(s) given the wildly divergent skill levels of my party, and even though I said it wasn't a major factor, the £thousands cost differential for equivalent lodgings* combined with the Epic pass synergies with the 3Vs and Verbier** was just too large to ignore. That said, all of those savings will be ploughed immediately back into guiding/lessons and the spa @monkbeer mentioned overnight for mum.
Obviously there's a higher covid interruption/cancellation risk with Canada--if that turns out to be an issue, I suspect the world has bigger problems than my holiday. And while I'd personally prefer Yellowstone (I've been there in high summer and it is ace) to Vancouver, on balance, Canada edges it. Jackson (and divers other places) will have to wait for No. 2's gap year and my sabbatical.
* yes, obviously there are far cheaper lodgings available in Jackson, but they are giving away suites at the Westin.
** seriously, what is the catch here? 7 days at 3Vs with no tied lodging requirement is going to definitely save me at least €1500 at HT2022, and probably another CHF600 next easter term break, more if I break tradition for misc. long weekends (normally in the 3Vs/Cham/Courmayeur/PdS) and go to one of the other covered European resorts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Dyrlac, either choice would have been incredible. I'm sure you'll love Whistler and you'll have an amazing time there.
For future reference (I assure you that you'll want to return to North America once you've tried it), I have always found impressively cheap accommodation in Jackson through one of the few UK firms that specialise in North American ski holidays. Many of those cheap deals haven't yet been loaded for the 2021/22 season but past form suggests they will certainly arrive.
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FAQ
A similar own-goal to the time she saw the photo of No. 2 on the ridge to the Grand Couloir last HT.
