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Is Season 2021/22 going to happen for the British or for Anyone Else

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
abc wrote:

If you report it as “facts”, the least you need to do is to provide your source...


Why do I need provide sources? Do I need to provide sources if I claim that the earth is round is a fact? In general, widely accepted facts such as this don't require citing a source every time. However to humour your ignorance of reality

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/dvt/features/blood-clots-pregnant-women.html

https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/consumers/leaflets/oralcontraceptives.asp
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Skimum1 wrote:
It's well known about the pill @abc, hopefully this is of interest:
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/risk-of-blood-clots/106257/
but because it's been in use for years by women it's just one on a list of side effects.
Maybe not in the US but the comparison was extensively reported in the UK when the blood clot story first broke.


yup, my mates sister nearly lost both legs due to clots caused by the contraceptive pill
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I was going to go to japan in 2022, but bailed on that one. Since I live in USA I doubt I will be able to ski in Europe so I just made plans for Big Sky. I expect all travel costs will go through the roof. I have a buddy who got back from his annual Snowmass ski trip 2 weeks ago and before he left he tried to book for next year. They wanted USD1,300/night even though this year he paid USD300/night.

Book now boys and girls. Just make sure you can cancel without penalty and get money back. It is going to be ugly.
ski holidays
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Had my first AstraZeneca jab yesterday (59 yrs old). Of the 10 of us vaccinated at the medical centre in Les Gets this week, all ten were english resident in France. The doctor said "a-z is very popular with the english, with the french - not so much". (He himself had his first a-z jab before the latest rule changes, now he's not allowed to have the second one!)

If France isn't ready for the 21/22 season, the blame will lie squarely with Macron.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
If the doc's got any sense, he'll give himself the second one whenever he has the chance, and a spare dose. Can always fiddle the dates on the paperwork later.
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The Daily Fail are now “reporting” that holidays are not likely before August.

I’m due to go to Brittany on the 1st August, so that may have worked out well.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Talk of vaccine passports has caused some MPs on opposite sides of the political spectrum (who would have thought Jeremy Corbyn and Ian Duncan Smith would be bedfellows Shocked ) to launch a campaign opposing Covid passports in England

The cross-party group said "Any demand to prove vaccination status to access jobs, businesses or services would be "divisive and discriminatory" ". Doh! Of course it would be discriminatory, that is the purpose of it rolling eyes , discrimination means treating some people differently from others. Some types of discrimination are unfair (and rightly illegal e.g racial discrimination) but discrimination is not always unfair (or illegal). For example when assessing candidates for a job employers discriminate between candidates on the basis of qualifications and experience.

The point at issue is whether using vaccine passports to discriminate between those people who have been vaccinated and those who haven't is fair and justified.
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@Alastair Pink, justified, perhaps. Fair? Not when half of the population aren’t even eligible for the jab yet.

I’d have less of an issue if they were brought in 12 weeks after everyone has been offered their first jab. You would then just be discriminating against if people were antivax idiots or not, which is completely their choice and within their power to change.
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@Timmycb5, Agreed. And by the time all adults can be vaccinated twice (September?), rates of infections and deaths should be so low that they are not even needed?
And that does not even address how millions of children are allowed into places as they are not scheduled for any vaccination in the near future. What about overseas tourists-would we accept vaccines produced by other countries? How long would the be valid for-booster vaccinations, antibody levels drop over time...sounds easy, in practice, a real mess.
And that's even before you try and work out how businesses would actually run them in practice.
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@Timmycb5, I think there's also a distinction to be drawn between vaccine passports required for foreign travel, which for the vast majority of people is a voluntary leisure time activity, and vaccine passports or Covid status documents required for going about normal life within the UK in employment or accessing services.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Note that my thread on vaccination passports was deemed secondary to the main interests here and relegated to the Après section. I'm still keeping it updated when actual news of new developments arise. To be fair, it' seems to garner less interest than my contributions to the «Tips for Log Fires» thread. The thing I'm waiting for at the moment is the release of the IATA TravelPass arrangements and associated App, which is scheduled for release mid-April, and which is going to be of relevance to anyone flying abroad in the near future. It's probably more than a coincidence that the Government's Task Force is releasing it's report on travel certification on 12th April - I expect it to reference the TravelPass as the de facto mechanism for foreign flights.


Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 2-04-21 15:32; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@LaForet, apologies, I was unaware of your thread. I'll repost my original comment of today in that thread.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Alastair Pink wrote:
@Timmycb5, I think there's also a distinction to be drawn between vaccine passports required for foreign travel, which for the vast majority of people is a voluntary leisure time activity, and vaccine passports or Covid status documents required for going about normal life within the UK in employment or accessing services.


I see it as extremely complex, but possibly unavoidable.

If an employer didn't know worker status and mixed vax and non vaxed personnel, then an outbreak causing severe health issues for even one person, where would responsibility rest? Also liability.

It must have been considered in places as simple as supermarket checkout staff early on in facing all customers without vax in place. But equally, any role with exposure to potential infection must have a longer responsibility trail, and consent from employees?

We started with everyone in the same boat, but separation with vax program succes must bring some extended thought process to the fore, no?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
A politician was on radio interviews this morning, saying how awful it would be for people to have to show a test result or vaccination to get into a concert or football match etc. Whereas bans - not merely test requirements - on overseas travel are perfectly OK because that's a 'privilege' and a 'luxury'.
(This was a left wing politician in the House of Lords. No contradiction obviously.)

More ominously for the 21/22 season, the Times reports today that (UK) " Ministers warned privately that international travel would be severely suppressed for another year at least." And "a government source said holidays won't be as we know them for the foreseeable future."
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Alastair Pink wrote:
@LaForet, apologies, I was unaware of your thread. I'll repost my original comment of today in that thread.

It wasn't meant as an admonition. I was surprised my Vaccination Passport thread was relegated off the main board, given it's relevant to anything to do with foreign travel, but there you are .... Although to be fair, there's not a lot of concrete stuff happening at the moment - the key initiatives from IATA, British Airways, the EU, the UK are all still unreleased as yet, although as we've seen, there's a lot of noise being generated on the domestic front. I suspect that once any international travel schemes are in place, any individual government will be in a much better position to argue for domestic equivalents on the basis of an unprepossessing actual example that everyone feels comfortable with.
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
peerless ploughman wrote:
A politician was on radio interviews this morning, saying how awful it would be for people to have to show a test result or vaccination to get into a concert or football match etc. Whereas bans - not merely test requirements - on overseas travel are perfectly OK because that's a 'privilege' and a 'luxury'.
(This was a left wing politician in the House of Lords. No contradiction obviously.)

More ominously for the 21/22 season, the Times reports today that (UK) " Ministers warned privately that international travel would be severely suppressed for another year at least." And "a government source said holidays won't be as we know them for the foreseeable future."


I think that was based on the leaked traffic light system - green where you’d need a test (or a vax certificate?), amber where you’d need 5/10 days quarantine and red where they lock you in a hotel. And newspapers/leakers are basing everything on where countries are today - but in 8-10 weeks France, Spain, Greece etc could well be where UK is now, with 50% of adults (and 100% of vulnerable) vaccinated. We should also have it confirmed that vaccines significantly reduce transmission (it’s looking more and more like they do) which, combined with seasonality (remember last summer?) should see cases low everywhere.

I think we’ll see rather more countries in the green pot than we think, and by next winter I think we’ll be ok - Whitty this week sounding a lot less pessimistic (and pointing out that 25k died of flu 3 years ago and (his words) “nobody noticed”).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
LaForet wrote:

It wasn't meant as an admonition. I was surprised my Vaccination Passport thread was relegated off the main board, given it's relevant to anything to do with foreign travel


Quite. 'Relegated' is an odd expression. When I go to The Piste, I expect to see threads on skiing. The clue is in the title. Your thread was of more general interest, so it was reasonable for a mod to promote it (rather than relegate) it to the general interest Apres area. In my opinion, of course.
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Alastair Pink, yes I agree, vaccine passports for foreign holidays is probably inevitable this year, and I have less issue with them. As you say, it’s not stopping day to day life, and you can go on holiday in the U.K. if you want.
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Hmm, still thinking negatively of next winter I'm afraid. Just my way of dealing with things and whilst I'm an optimist in general I find best to undersell my expectations in these times.
I was also thinking we'll maybe some indication of the future from the southern hemisphere but then again with Australia and New Zealand still 'shut' does southern Africa and South America accurately mirror the unique interconnections of Europe in particular? I think maybe not.
Aussie based friend was telling me today they have been told to expect borders to be closed until late 2022! Although that's likely because the vaccine rollout is very slow there, she is in her mid 40's and doesn't expected to get even a first dose of vaccine until next year.
ski holidays
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peerless ploughman wrote:
More ominously for the 21/22 season, the Times reports today that (UK) " Ministers warned privately that international travel would be severely suppressed for another year at least."


I am hoping that is to subdue unrealistic expectations, rather than a measured analysis - but on the face of it not optimistic.
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robboj wrote:
Hmm, still thinking negatively of next winter I'm afraid. Just my way of dealing with things and whilst I'm an optimist in general I find best to undersell my expectations in these times.
I was also thinking we'll maybe some indication of the future from the southern hemisphere but then again with Australia and New Zealand still 'shut' does southern Africa and South America accurately mirror the unique interconnections of Europe in particular? I think maybe not.
Aussie based friend was telling me today they have been told to expect borders to be closed until late 2022! Although that's likely because the vaccine rollout is very slow there, she is in her mid 40's and doesn't expected to get even a first dose of vaccine until next year.

She has given you bad info.
Our international border is expected to open in late 2021. It is the goal of the government to have everyone with at least one shot by the end of October this year.
We now have local production capability so that should negate the difficulties we’ve had at actually getting the vaccines that we have bought from the European suppliers.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
andy from embsay wrote:
peerless ploughman wrote:
A politician was on radio interviews this morning, saying how awful it would be for people to have to show a test result or vaccination to get into a concert or football match etc. Whereas bans - not merely test requirements - on overseas travel are perfectly OK because that's a 'privilege' and a 'luxury'.
(This was a left wing politician in the House of Lords. No contradiction obviously.)

More ominously for the 21/22 season, the Times reports today that (UK) " Ministers warned privately that international travel would be severely suppressed for another year at least." And "a government source said holidays won't be as we know them for the foreseeable future."


I think that was based on the leaked traffic light system - green where you’d need a test (or a vax certificate?), amber where you’d need 5/10 days quarantine and red where they lock you in a hotel. And newspapers/leakers are basing everything on where countries are today - but in 8-10 weeks France, Spain, Greece etc could well be where UK is now, with 50% of adults (and 100% of vulnerable) vaccinated. We should also have it confirmed that vaccines significantly reduce transmission (it’s looking more and more like they do) which, combined with seasonality (remember last summer?) should see cases low everywhere.

I think we’ll see rather more countries in the green pot than we think, and by next winter I think we’ll be ok - Whitty this week sounding a lot less pessimistic (and pointing out that 25k died of flu 3 years ago and (his words) “nobody noticed”).


The economy to countries is more important than a few hundred deaths a day.
A lot will change after the next few months and in 6 months should give a much clearer picture for the 2022 sesaon and if/how vaccinated countries allow vaccinated people to travel. I guess travel requirements will be similar to yellow feaver. In the short term, every traveller will be viewed as high risk.
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I just booked a self catered chalet with free cancellation for Easter 2022. I strongly suspect that by doing this I have just banjaxed the 2022 ski season, for which I apologise. Sort of.

I suspect my chances of actually going on this holiday are no more that 50/50.
ski holidays
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Mr.Egg wrote:


The economy to countries is more important than a few hundred deaths a day.
A lot will change after the next few months and in 6 months should give a much clearer picture for the 2022 sesaon and if/how vaccinated countries allow vaccinated people to travel. I guess travel requirements will be similar to yellow feaver. In the short term, every traveller will be viewed as high risk.


Agreed. Added to that will be the hope that infections might rise, but hospitalisations and deaths might not. There is some evidence of this already here, albeit without a full opening of daily routines. If THAT proves to be correct, the onus moves to the EU's vaxx rates and uptake; and their observations mirroring ours.
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I suspect the EU might want to ensure its internal and/or Schengen borders are fully open before considering third countries like the UK. We may provide the largest single country tourist influx to say Spain, at about 25%, but the EU as a whole probably provides more than 50%.
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@Charliegolf, yes I've noticed that despite the usual Press hysteria the deaths in Germany and France have either not moved or barely moved at all despite cases shooting up over a month before (Worldometers). If the people catching it aren't affected by it very much then who cares?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@boobleblooble, if as you say the numbers of deaths in France and Germany have not gone up significantly do you know if that also applies to Covid-19 related hospital admissions? The French and German governments will be wanting to make sure that hospitals do not exceed their capacity.
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boobleblooble wrote:
@Charliegolf, yes I've noticed that despite the usual Press hysteria the deaths in Germany and France have either not moved or barely moved at all despite cases shooting up over a month before (Worldometers). If the people catching it aren't affected by it very much then who cares?

Oh yes if they are only left with reduced eyesight or hearing or an increased risk of heart disease and blood clots we don't care do we! The long term effects can be life changing even for some of those who are not hospitalised.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Alastair Pink, no I think not: unless the ITUs are now ten times better (in which case we can open up as treatment is more efficient) for some reason they aren't dying despite numbers going up. Deaths in France have been pretty flat since the New Year and in Germany they've dropped constantly over a similar period. This despite cases in France increasing since early March and in Germany since the same time.

It's a very strange thing to strangle society with the legion of problems that brings because one small element of a very large health system is struggling.

@tarrantd, a bit like normal strokes then? Cancers? There are other illnesses than C19 as I've been saying since the first lockdown. In the UK last year I think C19 was only the fifth-biggest killer. Of course, if I was being childish I could simply turn your logic around on you and pretend that you don't care about cancer patients.
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@boobleblooble, strokes and cancer aren't contagious. Covid killed the number of people it has done despite the lockdowns that we've had to endure. Imagine what it would have been like if we hadn't had lockdowns. During December UK cases quadrupled from 15k to 60k per day. Once lockdown started the cases soon started dropping. Now we can afford to open up a bit, but if we open up too far then we'll be straight back into lockdown.
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I read something yesterday, might have been on another thread here about the new lockdown rules, that said hospital admissions in France were rising, and reaching peak ICU in some areas. Paris had already exceeded capacity.

The rise in French cases follows the National holidays a couple of weeks ago. Rises in death rates usually follow a few weeks after increases in Hospitalisations. With that in mind, deaths will probably start rising by the end on the month.

If they weren't concerned about the rise in cases, and inevitable increase in deaths, France and Germany wouldn't be introducing tougher restrictions.

Bear in mind, they also count Covid deaths differently to us.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Back to the original question, I’ll be skiing. I was skiing in Japan at the start of the pandemic, and have skied in Cervina/Zermatt (summer 2020), Zermatt (December 2020) and 20 days or more in Sweden in 2020/21 so far during this pandemic. Will be skiing this weekend. And for sure I’ll be skiing next season.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@thelem, no but they are still require treatment and are frequently lethal: much more so than C19.

How do you know lockdowns work? In Peru and Belgium they had harsh lockdowns yet high deaths. Sweden has had the same level of deaths as the UK yet much lighter restrictions. They've never been tried before and were explicitly warned against in WHO and UK pre-pandemic planning. Any sensible person would've rejected the idea but in a panic we copied the authoritarian Chinese for some stupid reason.

Having our freedom and fundamental rights taken away for tens of thousands of deaths is obscene: we were prepared to lose millions in World Wars yet just roll over when it's our own gov't. You don't seem to realise how far we've gone down this road.
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@boobleblooble, It's the old question that those who insist on "their rights" never seem capable of giving an answer. Maybe you can try this time?

Where do your "fundamental rights" end, and somebody else's start?
What right do you have to keep your freedoms at the cost of another life?

I also suggest you take some maths and history lessons. It's not tens of thousands. At the last count it was 130,000 in the UK and just under 3million worldwide.

How many do you think there would have been if no Governments had taken any action?
How many would you have accepted to keep your "freedoms"?

As a comparison. UK deaths in 12 months are roughly equal to 25% of deaths in 6 years of WW2. At times, worse than the Blitz.

Should the UK Government at the time have taken no action, and allowed Nazi Germany to exercise their "freedoms" to dominate the world?


Back on topic. Hopefully, there will be a season of some sort next year.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@brianatab, with ref. to your last paragraph I think the fact the a lot of European countries are starting to really ramp up their vaccination programmes has got to increase the probability of next season happening.

Good to have the thread back on topic. Pro Tem. no doubt.
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@brianatab, if you wish: the risk of death from C19 is minute. There are various sources but it is somewhere around 1% at most and that is not an evenly-distributed 1% at that, even amongst the elderly. When those at risk of death are from such a specific group then why should the vast majority suffer enormous costs: hundreds of thousands of jobs lost, billions spent, likely thousands dead from other illnesses (cancer has been consistently under-diagnosed since the lockdown) and the simple lunacy of the gov't taking it upon themselves to ban relatives from hugging (!)? The problem is the clear and enormous disproportion. It is not dissimilar to demanding that the roads are kept clear so that I can be safe cycling in the middle lane of the motorway, despite preventing others from doing business as they please.

No: the definition of a C19 death is ANY death from ANY cause within 28 days of a +ve test. Death certs that state C19 as the main cause of death are in the tens of thousands.

Do you know how many deaths have been caused by lockdowns? No, of course you don't which is why they shouldn't have been brought in. Those proposing a new intervention or treatment are required to demonstrate its effects, not those rejecting it. It's a basic scientific principle.

You seem to treat freedoms very lightly, as though they aren't the basis of our way of life and civilisation. How far like China should we become to keep you safe?

The WW2 comparison is utterly fatuous: the population size and composition are now very different and war is the violent imposition of will by others on us. A virus is a naturally-occurring phenomenon and you can't declare war on it any more than you can declare war on a volcano. I used the comparison to show that we were previously prepared to accept mass death of the young and fit to preserve something intangible, not throw it away and surrender to preserve life at any and all cost.

@esaw1, yep!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@boobleblooble, There are other threads for this discussion. Maybe you could move to one of them and answer my questions above.

Last comment from me here re this.

Total UK excess deaths in the last 12 months 130,000. That is the overall effect of this virus, irrespective of cause. How many people died here, and in other European Countries before the lockdowns?

If that had been allowed to continue, then the society you claim to cherish so much would have ceased to exist.
The Health services of every Country would have been overwhelmed. Many of the medical staff would have died. No other treatments for any ailments would have been available.

You would not have been able to get any food from the Supermarkets, as the supply system (mostly international) would have collapsed. This would include fuel supplies. Power cuts might have become routine due to staff shortages. (no electricity for you to log in here and whinge).

The infrastructure of many Countries would have collapsed. They would be in no position to allow you entry for your holidays.

Btw. The original comparison to WW1 & 2 was yours. I just added a few stats to illustrate your naivety.
The violent imposition of will by others is what would happen when fuel and food becomes scarce.

Your freedoms are not rights. They are Privileges that comes with being lucky enough to live in a Democracy, where we elect a Government to make decisions on our collective behalf.

I assume that, as you object to the Government response to this Virus, then you are also opposed to vaccination?
Good luck getting into any other Country in the next couple of years. Those of us lucky enough to get a holiday will drink a toast to your absence.

In your preferred scenario, the results of protecting your "rights" would mean that we would not be having any discussions about the possibility of a ski season next year. There would be zero chance of any Ski holiday, for anybody for the forseable future.
Nor would there be any international travel for leisure.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@brianatab, what you have written is complete and utter nonsense. Society would never have collapsed because of C19. You offer no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it would've done. You have completely failed to deal with my point about Sweden. There are a number of other countries as well that had little or no lockdown including Belarus and Tanzania, as well as a number of US states. They have not disintegrated. You persist in assuming that lockdowns work yet offer no evidence, probably because there is now more and more evidence that level of social restriction imposed by the gov't has little or no effect on C19. I have been saying this since day one.

Freedoms are rights. To suggest that they are privileges is to say that they can be taken away on the whim of others. Is equal treatment under the law a privilege? If so, are they any people who could have those privileges taken away so that they can be summarily punished.

One of those freedoms is bodily autonomy which leads to the principle of informed consent. It is not consent if you deny those who refuse to be vaccinated access to vast swathes of normal life: human contact, free trade and a host of others. It is coercion. The vaccine appears effective and side-effects are rare. It is opposed by many unlike, say, routine childhood vaccinations because unvaccinated children aren't prevented from living normal lives.

I see this all the time: cowards frightened into idiocy by relentless advertising and news stories as to how we are all going to die. My worry is that there will be battalions of these people who will demand extreme gov't control when the next crisis comes as they honestly believe that lockdowns and masks work, despite the utter dearth of evidence.
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Confidence, or at least much less fear is going to be the the key to everything and in one particular tourism, be that here or abroad.

The governments of the world have clearly succeeded in their original aim of scaring people about Covid. I have honestly been astounded at the utterly terrified reactions of some people I know for a long time now, way beyond the time when everyone was quite reasonably apprehensive about a then unknown new virus. The messaging doesn't seem to have changed, in fact it has, if anything, regressed in recent weeks.

It has to change at some point or some people, areas and countries will never recover their confidence.

Which leads me back to my recurring point about the actual quality of the holiday, regardless of the possibility. I agree with @gorilla above, the possibility is 50/50 right now. The desirability/enjoyment/value for money element is maybe 80/20 against.
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Just a reminder that this thread is entitled:
Is Season 2021/22 going to happen for the British or for Anyone Else

Can be answered quite simply I think as follows:

1. For the British
Yes for a few:
a) Those who live abroad in a country where skiing is possible this season. Examples: Switzerland, Austria, USA, Canada...
b) Those who can ski in Scotland.

2. For Anyone Else
Yes.
Inhabitants and visitors of countries where skiing is possible this season, see 1 a) above.

I doubt that is the end of this thread but wouldn't it be lovely if it was?
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