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Travel in France

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Gilly76 wrote:
FFS, the family test kits have just turned up this morning... Evil or Very Mad


Sad
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
ecureuil wrote:
But there probably has been a change. In most African and Middle East countries the Beta variation has been significantly decreasing in prevalence in the past few months/weeks. But in France it has been persistent or growing, so that by now France is second only to Botswana in the proportion of cases with that variant.
I agree that the Beta variant is another risk to consider, but what information has the UK learned about this variant in France in the last week or so that has made them change this policy? What do they know now that they didn't know a week ago when they decided that UK residents returning from France didn't need to quarantine at home? What do they know now that can't be mitigated with the requirement to do daily lateral flow tests tests when you return from France as a way of identifying some possible infections......


Conversation on Radio 4 this morning seemed to indicate that the Astra Zeneca was less effective against the Beta variant and with the UK having more people vaccinated with the Astra we get a change in to Amber Plus.
The French spokesperson pointed out that the were very few cases of Beta in France (20000), the majority of cases being in their Overseas Territories. ..!


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 17-07-21 11:02; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
under a new name wrote:
@davidof, I don't think the current restrictions / passports are directly related to the "beat" variant, are they?


They are to do with a 4th wave of infections and of course driven somewhat by the election cycle and politics.

Already some departments are above the alert level of 250/100K infections.
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@davidof, absolutely, mostly delta VOC and anyway, which neatly segues into my current soapbox that cases need to be read against the background of hospital stays and deaths. And of course the inviolability of French holidays.
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Shame to hear stories of people being messed around by politics / covid. After all the lockdown sacrifices and 10’s of millions of jabs it seems UK/Ire are more restricted this summer compared to last year?

I could write an essay on how ‘following the science’ has become such an abused term. One simple example that maybe someone could explain to me: why are people with lab verified high levels of natural antibodies after recent recovery NOT eligible for the European covid pass?

Is it possible that all these control measures are not just about covid?

Latest conspiracy theory “leaked document” I read is that UK will soon go into hard lockdown, with blame laid at huge sporting events and the unvaxed youth. One nutter claims to have a letter stating tracker bracelets will be issued to enforce quarantine/ lockdown rules, like actual criminals/ prisoners.

Yeah it’s probably bolixx. I sure hope so.

Back on topic, drove down to Italian riviera today via France. 1 UK reg spotted (vs hundreds last summer, same route). Loads of B, NL and generally the rest of Europe. Not the slightest sign of any border control at Ventimiglia, you just arrive in Italy like you always did, noticing the signposts have changed language. I carry antigen test kits in the car just in case.

My family have been to 6 different countries this summer using PCR or antigen tests (or nothing at all), so maybe the UK is just in a relatively unfortunate position at the moment.
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polo wrote:
One simple example that maybe someone could explain to me: why are people with lab verified high levels of natural antibodies after recent recovery NOT eligible for the European covid pass?

That's an easy one – they ARE eligible:
Quote:
What is the EU Digital COVID Certificate?
An EU Digital COVID Certificate is a digital proof that a person has either

• been vaccinated against COVID-19
• received a negative test result or
• recovered from COVID-19


Source: https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en
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@polo, Oh, and stop reading conspiracy theories, they're bad for your health Laughing
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Scarlet, nope, recent recovery refers to positive PCR test (like those are reliable?)

I researched the criteria yday before leaving and antibody tests are specifically excluded as valid proof.

This was confirmed by 2 Swiss doctors my wife asked

Please prove me wrong
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albob wrote:
Conversation on Radio 4 this morning seemed to indicate that the Astra Zeneca was less effective against the Beta variant and with the UK having more people vaccinated with the Astra we get a change in to Amber Plus.

I am not sure there is evidence for that, there aren't many places where Beta is prevalent and those haven't used AZ. That single small scale low quality trial in South Africa can't be considered as evidence alongside the real life knowledge of the vaccines in many places.

All the approved vaccines use almost identical spike protein sequences to stimulate an immune response (there are some small differences linked to considerations about the mechanism of delivery). For all of them there have been concerns that parts of the Beta virus won't be recognised, so success depends on how good the antibodies recognising other regions of the spike protein are at protecting against disease. In lab studies that has seemed reasonably good, using blood samples from people with both doses of various vaccines, but evidence of real life protection is still awaited.

The good thing about Beta is that it is apparently less transmissable than either Alpha or Delta, so not likely to become prevalent in competition with them. However I wonder whether it might no longer have that advantage in people who are single vaccinated.

Longer term scientists are obviously worried about variants being able to evade vaccine protection. While no one knows what new mutations may arise, one issue we can anticipate is a variant which combines the "worst" mutations of current variants and booster vaccines are being designed and tested to deal with that.
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@polo, Ah okay. Did you have it more than 6 months ago? It looks like antibody tests are only valid in individual countries, but not generally for travel – in Austria they are valid for access for e.g. restaurants. I believe as someone who has recovered, you would only need one dose to top you up for full validity, although two doses may be more widely accepted.
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@Scarlet, was more than 6 months ago that we got it, but by some accounts antibodies will last a lot longer than that….there are stories / studies showing 17 years and counting for SARS and life long examples for some Spanish flu anecdotes.

Plenty of doctors/ science will tell you natural antibodies are stronger, broader and potentially much longer lasting than current vaccine.

I don’t have links as I am on my phone on the beach.

So anyone help me with the science behind not allowing antibody proof for the euro travel pass? But old PCR test is fine, until it invariably expires
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@polo, I think it's simply down to a lack of definitive data on Covid-19 antibodies, and how long they last. A PCR test is only valid for 6 months, an antibody test for 3 months. The vaccination itself is only given a validity of 9 months on the certificate, though I fully expect this to be extended if it is still in use and booster vaccines are not widely available.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Scarlet, straying off topic here, so my last comment….obviously I had zero covid antibodies when I fought the infection. The natural immune system has a much wider range of tools than any vaccine, and it targets the whole virus instead of just the narrow S protein that the vax does.

I’ve also read all covid variants to date are at least 99.7% identical in sequence analysis. Something healthy recovered immune systems can recognize and respond to.

Surely lab results showing titters from vaccine are just as definitive as antibody titters and other immune signals from natural recovery.

We’ve been at this for a year and a half now. There’s no question in my mind that natural immunity is not given the credit it deserves (eg Diamond Princess, and the Cleveland Clinic did a large study showing natural recovery alone is just as good as vaccine)

Latest Euro travel pass antibody exclusion makes no scientific sense to my admittedly biased position.

Anyway time will tell more hopefully….

Cheers (am raising a pina colada in your general direction Cool )
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@polo, wink I'd do the same, but it would fill with rainwater Laughing
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Feel the same about the antibody exclusion. I still have very high antibodies 16 months after infection! (Had quantitative antibody test) very frustrating that it isn’t accepted as being as safe as someone vaccinated.
Apparently in Israel - 56% of infected people are double jabbed while only 1% of daily cases are from people who have recovered from covid before! Shows that the immunity from natural infection is most likely better than immunity from a vaccine but that science seems to be dismissed….
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polo wrote:
Surely lab results showing titters from vaccine are just as definitive as antibody titters and other immune signals from natural recovery.


To quote the late Frankie Howerd "Titter ye not!" Toofy Grin
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Update on Eurotunnel. Just taken about 1:15 from leaving the M20 to get through check in, pet reception, passport control x 2 and a quick dash into the Flexiplus lounge to stock up on coffee and croissants. Only question French passport control asked was were we were vaccinated and to see our certificates.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@L0ve2ski, @polo, I completely agree. If the production of antibodies is such a large part of the validation process for vaccines why are naturally produced antibodies not relevant for a 'covid pass'?
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@CaravanSkier, they are in sensible parts of the world ...
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We left M20 at 10 and queuing . Only look to be 2 lanes open. We are not flexiplus and the dog is not with us.
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Remember that from today your PCR/Antigen test needs to be less than 24 hours old for entry into France for non or partially vaccinated people.
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L0ve2ski wrote:
Feel the same about the antibody exclusion. I still have very high antibodies 16 months after infection! (Had quantitative antibody test) very frustrating that it isn’t accepted as being as safe as someone vaccinated.….

Agree. And conversely, I know someone who has been double vaccinated, so is theoretically free to travel, but because of a compromised immune system now has no antibodies at all and is back shielding Sad
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Loaded on tfe train 1hr 5 mins after leaving M20. For some reason we had to go into the main building to the COVID document checking place. All ok as had been when uploaded.

Really quite disturbing to be amongst at least three groups of passengers though who had all failed to understand that the NHS tests are not valid for travelling - all appeared to be non English speakers - who were asking the staff where to go for COVID tests and were told they would have to look it up themselves and shoulders were shrugged behind the desks. Not helpful at all.
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under a new name wrote:
@CaravanSkier, they are in sensible parts of the world ...


Please enlighten us. Which countries accept recent antibody result for international travel? Are they valid in Europe?
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@polo, It is accepted by individual countries, it's just not valid criteria for the EU travel pass we were discussing yesterday. For example, you could enter Austria from say Switzerland up to 90 days after an antigen test:

Quote:
Proof of Past Infection
You can enter Austria for 180 days after a SARS-CoV-2 infection. Proof of antibodies is valid for 90 days from the test date


Source: https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entry-regulations

If it's more than 90 days after the test, then you have to pay for another antibody test, but if that still shows up positive then you're good for another 90 days. Other countries will have their own criteria.
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@Scarlet, hmmm. Complex and seemingly completely different for multiple euro countries. Eg no issues for hotels in several countries like Italy. And Ireland has this brilliantly scientific rule that anyone who books a hotel room can eat / drink indoors regardless of covid status. But unvaxed locals can not enter local pub.

I imagine all of this will have to be harmonized, which is what euro pass and WHO are pushing for (global health pass).

Then again I imagined last summer that it would be sensible for large blocks of countries to go into full 3 week lockdown together. Alas….the opposite nonsensical shtshow of moving goalposts, lack of transparency, inconsistent logic, unreasonable rules and general ‘let’s make as big a mess as possible’ seems to have been favoured by our democratically elected numpties in charge and their unelected science advisors who all seem to advocate completely different shizzle.

Barman! I demand more booze
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
"..failed to understand that the NHS tests are not valid for travelling.." -- That seems bizarre ; are the test no good/inferior ??
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

"..failed to understand that the NHS tests are not valid for travelling.." -- That seems bizarre ; are the test no good/inferior

Of course they are not inferior, but their use will stop private companies charging £150 per test.
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You know it makes sense.
@johnE, and the cost to the NHS will probably increase if it has a fit to travel element to the testing process. However given the billions spent on Test and Trace etc it wiuld probably be chicken feed in comparison.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 18-07-21 19:06; edited 1 time in total
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albob wrote:
"..failed to understand that the NHS tests are not valid for travelling.." -- That seems bizarre ; are the test no good/inferior ??

Why should people want to travel get free tests on the nhs and burden us all with the cost?
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Wales and I think Scotland can only have test on return purchased through CTM portal. As you need 2x tests, thats £170
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albob wrote:
"..failed to understand that the NHS tests are not valid for travelling.." -- That seems bizarre ; are the test no good/inferior ??


Depends which tests you refer to. The Antigen - lateral flows are self certificating so would really prove nothing anyway. Anyone could say they are negative.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@hammerite, both tests need to be purchased if you are using them for travel purposes. While I have no issue with that, there is the argument that the need for these tests is being implemented by a government who want us all to test regularly to enable us to go about our daily lives. For many, that also includes travel.
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johnE wrote:
Out of curiosity since parents are now fined for taking their children out of school to go on holiday are they also fined for quarentining them on their return?


Interesting question. I’m a teacher. We were told that if we went on holiday abroad and came home with a need to quarantine that overlapped with the beginning of term, that there would be a strong possibility that it would class as gross misconduct.

For me though, I’m leaving my job here and heading to Andorra. I need to make sure I get to Andorra in plenty of time, just in case they introduce restriction. There aren’t any at the moment. Annoyingly, my flights to Barcelona and back we’re both moved to inconvenient times despite them being booked with different airlines. I cancelled and re-booked with Ryanair (who I try to avoid). I just hope things don’t change between now and then.

I’ve still not booked a crossing for my final move out there. I doubt I’ll struggle to find a convenient crossing, so I may as well wait until closer to the time and book something based on the rules for entering France at the time.
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Mr.Egg wrote:
albob wrote:
"..failed to understand that the NHS tests are not valid for travelling.." -- That seems bizarre ; are the test no good/inferior ??

Why should people want to travel get free tests on the nhs and burden us all with the cost?
Because those tests are a public good, not a private benefit. Testing doesn’t benefit the person being tested, at the very least it’s an expensive option (although the companies offering that service are no doubt making a handsome profit), and can lead to further isolation and restrictions on ability to work.
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My point about the staff at Eurotunnel was really that they were getting this lot this morning, and undoubtedly at other times, who have just not understood the requirements to travel - could they not have done print outs with names, addresses etc so that the bods concerned could get on their way and get acceptable tests booked. Seemed to me that it was almost as if they had been told not to get involved.
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@Pamski, I agree, a simple A4 photocopied sheet with an explanation that the NHS test was not certified for travel would be a helpful response, with a list of possible commercial providers of tests suitable for travel.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@rob@rar, exactly. And your wording of ‘possible commercial’ was spot on so they would not be recommending any firm in particular, but just being helpful.
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rob@rar wrote:
@Pamski, I agree, a simple A4 photocopied sheet with an explanation that the NHS test was not certified for travel would be a helpful response, with a list of possible commercial providers of tests suitable for travel.


That would probably lead to a legal challenge for any clinic that does the tests who may not be on the list.
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Pamski wrote:
My point about the staff at Eurotunnel was really that they were getting this lot this morning, and undoubtedly at other times, who have just not understood the requirements to travel - could they not have done print outs with names, addresses etc so that the bods concerned could get on their way and get acceptable tests booked. Seemed to me that it was almost as if they had been told not to get involved.


Isn’t that exactly what the eurotunnel website DOES do? It explains in clear terms all the steps, has a link to the government page with all the approved providers, and has a ink to its own “definitely ok to use these folk” provider at 2x the cost.

I travelled by eurotunnel today, and although it was a bit of a faff, it wasn’t exactly mastermind to navigate. Fill in some simple french forms, take a photo, upload, get a green tick if the computer thinks you’ve done it right. Upload a test result and wait a few mins for someone to review it, get a green tick…. Arrive at check in and they can see all the green ticks in your booking, takes less than a minute. In addition, I received a call on Friday to run through the requirements and make sure I understood them and would have completed them all before travel.
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