 Poster: A snowHead
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| Masque wrote: |
@extremerob, @Red Leon, as you both point out, women have a different morphology than males. But have you noticed 'that' is changing? Joyfully many women are ignoring the male ideal of the plastic tit n аrsеd Kardashian and growing into a natural female form that is just as powerful as the male. Less mass may well equate to quicker response, better control and faster times?
There is also the 'mentality' aspect of this conversation. Just how much performance is governed by lowered expectation?
Right at this moment we would not expect many mixed podiums, though I would gamble on some. However, having two podiums over the same course at the same time is obviously achievable and over time would become redundant. |
I’m with you on the shunning of what (some) men deem to be the “male ideal”.
But I don’t think there’s anyway to (naturally) achieve physiological parity between men and women who compete at the top end of a sport like DH, mainly due to testosterone.
You could set courses that suited lighter people, but that would smack of changing the event to fudge the results.
I also think having a second podium could have the opposite effect of what you think could eventually be achieved. Standing on it would likely be looked on with a bit of derision.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@extremerob, I would argue that with changing attitudes towards sexuality, even if we try to ignore transgender positions. We come to one of the real handicapping reasons as @Klamm Franzer, elucidates . . . MONEY . . . The great barrier to equality in most sports . . . and the minds of the people with that money to invest in sports
@Klamm Franzer, you writing "behaving like a twаt" is not not just you reinforcing my entire argument and deeply insulting. It illustrates why female competitors have far more hurdles to clear than their male equivalents. Jeeez just how stupid are these people 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Masque, did you know that FIS requires equal minimum prize money at all Audi FIS World Cup events?
| Quote: |
| Skiing, however, seems to be an exception. According to FIS, the top female alpine skiers have out-earned the top male skiers for the second year in a row, with American Mikaela Shiffrin earning the most prize money of any male or female alpine skier. |
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| extremerob wrote: |
@Masque, did you know that FIS requires equal minimum prize money at all Audi FIS World Cup events?
| Quote: |
| Skiing, however, seems to be an exception. According to FIS, the top female alpine skiers have out-earned the top male skiers for the second year in a row, with American Mikaela Shiffrin earning the most prize money of any male or female alpine skier. |
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So that basically boils down to the fact that, in skiing at least, having solely mixed races will make it worse off for women.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So the gods were definitely with us today, the Alpine combined is taking place today as part of the Cortina WSC. It is one super-G run followed by one slalom. Originally the men and women were meant to race on different pistes, but the organisers moved the men onto the womens Super-G piste.
The women have raced this slope since last week, have had a Super-G, a DH and training runs on it, they know the terrain and the snow conditions. What is more is that women race this piste every year as part of the world cup circuit. The men do not race this piste. They had an inspection of it this morning and then they raced the same piste after the women.
@Masque, look at the times, these are the splits after the Super-G race only, this is exactly why women and men do not race the same events...
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I'm a bit slow, is the argument here that because women only compete amongst themselves they have no reason to push further than the top of the the women's times and if they were in a mixed group they would push have to increase their performance to beat the men as well? If so it that seems disingenuous to female ski racers? I have probably got the wrong end of the stick here as I said I'm a bit slow.
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| extremerob wrote: |
So the gods were definitely with us today, the Alpine combined is taking place today as part of the Cortina WSC. It is one super-G run followed by one slalom. Originally the men and women were meant to race on different pistes, but the organisers moved the men onto the womens Super-G piste.
The women have raced this slope since last week, have had a Super-G, a DH and training runs on it, they know the terrain and the snow conditions. What is more is that women race this piste every year as part of the world cup circuit. The men do not race this piste. They had an inspection of it this morning and then they raced the same piste after the women.
@Masque, look at the times, these are the splits after the Super-G race only, this is exactly why women and men do not race the same events...
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Really interesting, particularly as the course has got slower as time goes by on every session this week.
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@extremerob, and there you illustrate the issue . . . Three seconds . . . As if that is some sort of insurmountable barrier FFS! Assuming the men's and women's courses were identical are you going to say that the women can't lift their game to beat the men? Do you even understand just how small that difference is?
I'm astonished by the blatant sexist ignorance in this thread, the crass assumption that women cannot equal male performance and the equally crass assumption that one female British skier defines her entire genre.
Times are changing as is our female genotype outside of our male febrile fantasies, and long past due. Just because last year's results reinforce your prejudices doesn't mean that next year's won't put a match to your farts.
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@Masque, I think you refuse to look at the data objectively and you are neglecting the statements made by top female athletes including Vonn. The fact that you also think that three seconds is nothing really illustrates a lack of understanding of the sport. 0.01s which was what Andreas Sander missed out to yesterday in the Men's downhill translated to 0.27m - three seconds off the pace is significant.
What is more is if the men had trained on that piste, skied it as part of the world cup annually and also skied it today before the women, earlier in the day on more ideal snow conditions the result would have lead to an even larger gap
Either way there is no point to continue to discuss this if you cannot be objective about it
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@Masque, I have been involved in British ski racing for a long time. I remember when Chemmy could beat all the GBR boys of her age, this stopped when she was about 14 and the boys got stronger and faster. I have not seen any changes in female racer body shape in my lifetime so have no idea what you think is different now.
I asked what your experience of race coaching or racing was to know how far back to start explaining the sport.
Race courses get cut up by each racer going down them. It is an advantage to start earlier in the race. The start order is determined by performance in previous races across different levels. The whole sport is structured around how you improve your start position for future races. At the higher levels there are also national quotas that mean that you are not seeing the best 60 odd skiers in the world in a WC race, just the best ones who have been chosen for that race.
What exactly are you suggesting should change ? If you make the whole system mixed then I think you will quickly get to the point where no female racers are shown on TV, I do not want that to happen.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rjs, Good explanation, however, I feel that you have just wasted your time writing it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
@Masque, I have been involved in British ski racing for a long time. I remember when Chemmy could beat all the GBR boys of her age, this stopped when she was about 14 and the boys got stronger and faster. I have not seen any changes in female racer body shape in my lifetime so have no idea what you think is different now.
I asked what your experience of race coaching or racing was to know how far back to start explaining the sport.
Race courses get cut up by each racer going down them. It is an advantage to start earlier in the race. The start order is determined by performance in previous races across different levels. The whole sport is structured around how you improve your start position for future races. At the higher levels there are also national quotas that mean that you are not seeing the best 60 odd skiers in the world in a WC race, just the best ones who have been chosen for that race.
What exactly are you suggesting should change ? If you make the whole system mixed then I think you will quickly get to the point where no female racers are shown on TV, I do not want that to happen. |
I coached youth football and noticed something similar at the same age. As soon as the boys hit puberty, the levels of testosterone in their systems means they put on lean muscle mass without even trying. I was gutted when my striker left to go and play for an all girls team (I was one of the few coaches that had a mixed squad in a mostly male dominated league), but it was what she wanted, and if I had tried to pressure her to stay, she wouldn't have enjoyed her football as much.
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IMV. Ski racing is indeed a power sport, especially in the faster disciplines, where the forces are huge. A look at the training regimes of these Athletes is eye opening. Male Athletes can lift more weight and thus gain more strength through increased muscle mass. The extra weight should also help with speed events.
Being a top racer is about Skill and Strength - one without the other will not get you onto the podium....such is the level of competition in the sport.
This view is nothing to do with being Sexist.
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You know it makes sense.
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No, they are not wasting their time, I can be persuaded to think otherwise. But all I have seen here and all that has been reference to is past performance and competitors who have accepted their limitations. And let's be blunt, those limitations are manifestly expressed in this thread.
I have two Grandaughters and for whom I will do EVERYTHING in my power to help them achieve their maximum potential both physical and mental. Focusing backwards for a reference is not just regressive but is demonstrably offensive.
@rjs, I have absolutely no argument that race courses degrade with use and in that they need a deeper skill level to overcome to achieve a podium finish. What I am saying as you yourself attest is that the differential between male and female skierst has narrowed to the point where they can begin to compete equally and it is only hide bound attitudes stopping this. Just because one woman didn't continue to progress doesn't mean that the next won't.
Whist I don't support the idea . . . We handicap horses, why not skiers? OK that might be a bit silly. But, just what are the practical problems of mixed races?
@Old Fartbag, female power lifters? There is absolutely no reason a female skier cannot be physically equivalent to a male one and as we move forward the potential is more and more powerful.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Masque, It's disappointing that you've wrenched this topic off what had the potential to be a very interesting subject but hey, it's an internet forum so it happens... but, insulting people who do you the respect of engaging in the discussion objectively with you is never a good look, nor is it a good way to further the conversation on the matter. In particular the name-calling and derision you have directed at @rjs was utterly uncalled for.
Further, while you seem to think you are 'a knight on the side of right' here, you come over as 'standing up for the little lady' which is, frankly condescending. You appear to be arguing that the only reason these elite, driven women athletes at the peak of their ability don't ski 'a little bit' faster is because they haven't got boys to keep up with? Do you not see how belittling that is of these women's performance and achievements?
I've known you long enough to know you mean well but here, is one of those times when you are out of order. Relax, reset (and probably repeat, if I know you )
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Masque I have 2 daughters and will equally fight for them to reach their potential.
The stats posted up the thread came about AFTER your post yesterday by a sheer fluke of luck this morning (unless the FIS peeps read this thread) so I don’t think that is looking back or regressive. It is using the most recent data.
Will female skiers continue to get quicker? Undoubtedly. If you assume that this means the gap will close, then I’m afraid you are guilty of a little sexism too, in assuming that men won’t also continue to improve.
The practical issues are simple numbers. If ski races were all mixed now, the best female skiers would oust some of the men for sure, but race numbers are limited so the vast majority of female skiers currently competing in the highest level wouldn’t qualify for a mixed World Cup circuit and therefore would be hugely reduced.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pieman666 wrote: |
| Do racers ever do practise runs with weighted vests. I wonder if any weight is a help or only muscle... Apart from speed skiing I assume the extra weight wouldn't help but it would be interesting to see. I suppose if it is and advantage it will be in the rules (maximum weight for clothing) otherwise they would push it to the extreme... |
Firstly, it makes me laugh how a question on lovely Lara's technique in turns becomes a full on debate on men's vs women's entitlement in sports.
All the female chips on shoulders come out and the usual cajones gets talked, when the bottom line fact in any explosive power based sport is that statistically women will be second best. However this doesn't take into effect that the women's version of these sports can be purer and far more skilful and far more enjoyable to watch. Biology always has its drawbacks - I could have done all the weights and power developing exercises in the world and I was in my 20s and 30s a pretty strong lad with good performance at power lifts but God never gifted me the core strength or balance of Bode Miller or Beat Feuz - suck it up and deal with it.
Regarding the turn's question. I probably merit the category of "Expert Intermediate" as a skier. Not good enough to be expert but too good to be a general intermediate - I maintain the intermediate tag as I still have the odd day where it all goes as ragged as hell - normally after the muscles are suffering on day 3 of a week. Anyway, moving on - I don't profess to know much about the techniques of downhill but I have been on a few ESF run familiarity days, guiding days and private lessons when the group leader/instructor has used the term "power slide" to complement, aid and provide a precise alternative to a carved turn. I assumed therefore that this was something that all good skiers developed. This technique definitely helps pace on turns but I assumed this was a skill all would use except on the really icy steeps of downhill/superG
Lastly, the weighted vest thing could aid betting on ski races - The Hahnenkahm could become a Handicap like The Grand National
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| Masque wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, female power lifters? There is absolutely no reason a female skier cannot be physically equivalent to a male one and as we move forward the potential is more and more powerful. |
Can Female Power Lifters, lift the same as Male Power Lifters?
It's just a fact, that in a sport where Power is an important factor, Men will be able to put on more muscle and have an advantage. Comparing across sports, is not that helpful, as the physical requirements are not necessarily transferable between sports. A Female Power Lifter would not imv be world beating on skis.
There is a reason Male Tennis players can serve faster and hit the ball harder; why Male Golfers can hit the ball further,; why Male Sprinters can run the 100m quicker....and each discipline has its specific training requirements eg. It is counter productive for Golfers to Bulk Up.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@admin, Well no, I don't belittle anyone's achievements, I do belittle the minds that think this should be acceptable. You and I are of and age where we have seen the performance gap between male and female in many pure power sports narrow and yes in that narrow field there may never be parity. But that is not the case in many other sports. The whole idea of sex separation in sport is solely down to archaic male attitudes. Why the hell should they be continued? MMA is already a just a weight based sports and beginning mixed sex bouts, why not have ski competition grades based on body mass.
Yes, I'll be offensive to minds that cannot even begin to explore future possibilities or the way both our society and our human bodies are and have the potential to evolve.
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@Old Fartbag, hitting further doesn't mean more accuracy, neither does hitting harder. People are changing, every generation today has different goals than the previous one and that includes physical abilities. How would we see the Williams sisters when we were youths?
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@Timmycb5, yes, but that is only if we retain the existing format to the way we grade competition. The gap has been closing and if all we are arguing about is body mass then . . . Its just ridiculous to segregate by sex and better to race in mass segments. That would certainly support the idea that as boys grew heavier they just got faster no matter their skills level.
One of the fundamentals we talk about here is skill and I don't believe for a minute that men are more skilled than women on skis or that muscle mass is better than muscle control.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 15-02-21 15:28; edited 1 time in total
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Thinking of Galileo’s experiments, I wouldn’t expect weight to make any difference to speed in a straight line down hill.
@Masque, was getting very excited last night - had drinks been taken?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Masque wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, hitting further doesn't mean more accuracy, neither does hitting harder. People are changing, every generation today has different goals than the previous one and that includes physical abilities. How would we see the Williams sisters when we were youths? |
No, but it means you can take a more lofted club when the green is reachable - and it's much easier to be accurate with a more lofted club......and it's why the Ladies Tee Box is further forward to allow for the difference.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Masque wrote: |
@Timmycb5, yes, but that is only if we retain the existing format to the way we grade competition. The gap has been closing and if all we are arguing about is body mass then . . . Its just ridiculous to segregate by sex and better to race in mass segments. That would certainly support the idea that as boys grew heavier they just got faster no matter their skills level.
One of the fundamentals we talk about here is skill and I don't believe for a minute that men are more skilled than women on skis or that muscle mass is better than muscle control. |
To be fair, nobody is questioning if women skiers are less skilful. All I’ve seen is people saying their skill level is equal or better. The debate has been confined to muscle mass, and no matter which way you butter it, man have a massive competitive advantage over women because of the levels of testosterone.
Segregating by mass could be an idea. In New Zealand, youth rugby is segregated by weight, not age, and they’re not too shabby at rugby.
That said, doing it on mass could be a disadvantage to women as even at elite level, women will have a smaller muscle mass to total mass ratio. And even then, you’d just be introducing a different kind of differentiation. The “heavyweight” section would likely be mostly men, so I’m not sure it would achieve what you want.
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Work beckons. . . To those I've offended . . . Too bad (but nothing harboured here for any future meetings  ) To those I may have introduced to a bit of lateral thinking . . . It's never to late to look outside the box.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Red Leon wrote: |
| I’ve wondered for years why there haven’t been more successful women jockeys - after all, there’s clearly an advantage to being light so women should have a head start. The same applies to motorsport but I guess there are other factors at play such as opportunity and the macho element. |
I think a bit chunk of it is just pure numbers, there are many, many more men looking to be in the sport.
However one area of motorsport which is far more equal is drag racing, in particular at the top level. At the British round of the European championships in 2019 there were 8 Top Fuel entries with a 50/50 gender split, 3 out of 4 semi-finalists were female as were both finalists. The current European record holders for both ET and speed are women. And when it comes to 'macho' going from 0-330mph in 4 seconds has got to be pretty high up there.
I don't get Masque's point here, he's arguing for equality in a way that will make the majority of the women's tour redundant. Unless we go down the route of about 6 different weight categories, which will just confuse people and result in arguments about who gets to run first on each course. Plus how would a guy like Ramon Zennhausen feel being chucked in the heavyweight category because it's deemed he's not light enough to beat the likes of Clement Noel? It's a crap idea. The current system works, the people within the sport have no issue with how it works, so why change it?
And Graham is right it comes across as "look at me standing up for the girls who can't do it themselves"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, Clement Noel is tall too so he won't be much lighter than Ramon Zenhausen.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have a sneaky feeling that Masque is really henpecked at home and that 'er indoors wears the trousers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The weight category has another massive potential drawback....
30 years ago I represented Wales in the junior judo squad in the British championships. I won half my fights (about 5 out of 10, one with an ippon), got nothing. A friend of the family was one of two people in their weight category. They got thrown in an ippon move within seconds of the start of their only fight and won a silver medal. Not that I'm bitter or anything 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rjs wrote: |
| @SnoodlesMcFlude, Clement Noel is tall too so he won't be much lighter than Ramon Zenhausen. |
Fair enough, Shiffrin then. Point remains, isn't fair to pigeonhole people to weight other than where it has a very real impact (as with horse racing) or they're getting punched in the face.
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, It is hard to tell how tall people are from the TV, you thought that there was a big difference between the two in your example, Clement Noel is a foot taller than Lara Gut-Behrami though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Why stop at humans? Agility dogs (of any gender) with spikes on would be pretty good at slalom and the TV audience would increase.
The OP's argument is about as daft as that.
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@rjs, actually I just drew a blank on any slalom skier other than Hirscher
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The Cortina numbers above prove the point beyond doubt IMO. But it would be interesting to see an equivalent comparison for the slalom. Does anyone have the numbers?
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I hate to say it but I agree with Masque on this. You could list the results mixed and by sex. I do wonder if you'd see the women getting faster?
Apart from generating twice as many days from the same talent pool (which I suspect is the reason) there isn't much point in splitting. The other issue would be on a given course you would only get so many runs so would you loose half the men and half the women?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Maybe I'm being an eejit, it's not like the women aren't trying hard.
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@Steilhang, the numbers are below, look at the run 2 columns - but before someone jumps in and says the women were as fast as the men . Womens SL course was set as 58 gates / 57 turning gates ; Mens SL course was set as 69 gates and 60 turning gates
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FAQ
but reading so many of these numpties with minds in the past is a trigger to ask them about the future of our sport and all they can talk about is the status quo. . . . Miserable mindset 
that's a first for me split off into mine own midden 