 Poster: A snowHead
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I have been skiing 3V for over 30 years and was looking forward to getting a free pass on my 75th birthday in December. The age for free passes has gone up from 62 when I first skied there and Mr Mogulski has had a free season pass for the last 2 years. We will be out there helping with childcare for our youngest granddaughter for about 9 weeks in total over the season. Just logged onto the 3V site as passes were only available from today and horror - they have removed the free passes! At least over 75s do get a deal, we have to pay 25% of the adult cost. So it looks like a season pass will be 387.5 euros each. I suppose its better than full price. The strange thing is that in french it gives that price but in english it still has projected prices which are free for over 75s. I assume they just haven't updated the english version.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mogulski wrote: |
| I have been skiing 3V for over 30 years and was looking forward to getting a free pass on my 75th birthday in December. The age for free passes has gone up from 62 when I first skied there and Mr Mogulski has had a free season pass for the last 2 years. We will be out there helping with childcare for our youngest granddaughter for about 9 weeks in total over the season. Just logged onto the 3V site as passes were only available from today and horror - they have removed the free passes! At least over 75s do get a deal, we have to pay 25% of the adult cost. So it looks like a season pass will be 387.5 euros each. I suppose its better than full price. The strange thing is that in french it gives that price but in english it still has projected prices which are free for over 75s. I assume they just haven't updated the english version. |
Paradiski Season Pass for +75: 50 EUR.... not free but very very close to !
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Booger 
You're right that S3V still shows offert but Meribel Alpina and Sevabel both show the new Veteran 75+ category and price.
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| mogulski wrote: |
| I have been skiing 3V for over 30 years and was looking forward to getting a free pass on my 75th birthday in December. The age for free passes has gone up from 62 when I first skied there and Mr Mogulski has had a free season pass for the last 2 years. We will be out there helping with childcare for our youngest granddaughter for about 9 weeks in total over the season. Just logged onto the 3V site as passes were only available from today and horror - they have removed the free passes! At least over 75s do get a deal, we have to pay 25% of the adult cost. So it looks like a season pass will be 387.5 euros each. I suppose its better than full price. The strange thing is that in french it gives that price but in english it still has projected prices which are free for over 75s. I assume they just haven't updated the english version. |
I guess they figure that the boomers are the only people who can afford to ski the 3V so why not bleed them a bit longer?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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75 and over still free in Tignes-Val D’Isere for the coming season.
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@davidof, literally my first thought
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| davidof wrote: |
| I guess they figure that the boomers are the only people who can afford to ski the 3V so why not bleed them a bit longer? |
It's not the boomers. S3V didn't account for Putin's attempted land grab making their highest spending demographic illegal 
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I've never understood the logic for giving free passes over a particular age. Discount yes, to reflect the fact that on average they probably ski less than those younger, but why free?
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| Quote: |
So it looks like a season pass will be 387.5 euros each.
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That is a lot - for reference us over 65s in Paradiski pay €624 for the season and as @thierryd says a €50 admin charge for the over 75s, but I suspect that will change before I get to that age.
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| Quote: |
I guess they figure that the boomers are the only people who can afford to ski the 3V so why not bleed them a bit longer?
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A sound commercial decision, I suspect. There is NO logic in a free pass for people over a certain age - though "off peak" passes which could only be used at certain times and/or in certain weeks could make a lot of sense.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I guess they figure that the boomers are the only people who can afford to ski the 3V so why not bleed them a bit longer?
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A sound commercial decision, I suspect. There is NO logic in a free pass for people over a certain age - though "off peak" passes which could only be used at certain times and/or in certain weeks could make a lot of sense.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sorry but don't have a huge amount of sympathy (if that was what you were looking for?). The days when pensioners were all as poor as church mice, and therefore worthy of universal freebies (ultimately funded by those paying full whack), is well over. In the UK, the median disposable income for retired households is higher than working age ones.
Still wonder in an age of equality rules, how giving a discount/freebie solely because of age is still legal?
At least you're still getting a hefty discount....
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I have to admit, as being over 65 myself I don't get the logic of all the benefits you get by just being old.
I pay less than my son for my lift pass even though we ski exactly the same pistes
I get discounted rail fares even though we may be sitting together on the same train
I pay less when I go to the indoor climbing wall and many other leisure activities, even when we climb together
I don't pay national insurance
I don't pay student loan
I get free eye tests and prescriptions, which I probably need more than my son
I get a pensioners cost of living allowance every year
I am eligble for a free bus pass
The barber even charges me less to cut my hair.
I get a pension increase in line with inflation. My working son gets half
It's weird isn't it
But it is still annoying when they keep raising the age eligibilty criteria for free lift passes.
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You know it makes sense.
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WTF! 
The only reason I was not going to catch a one way EasyJet ticket to Zurich next year was the thought of getting a free pass ..
After all these years I've been stoking their coffers I was looking forward getting a free pass.
I'm 74 and still having to work my bits off, to put a crust on the table, I'm still paying my way in taxes.
Its a bummer.
Me and the misses were looking forward to meeting up with the grandchildren in Orelle for lunch in our dotage.
Even if we could not ski anymore.
I'm a bit hacked off.
Is it just the 3V ?
I'll going to check out St Gervais.
Where are my glasses? Where's my teeth? Where's my bus pass?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've just looked up St Gervais ... I'll get a free one if I get to 80 
Unless of course they change it by then.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@johnE, Bang on. Well put, particularly as someone who is benefitting personally.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@DrLawn,
Oh, the tragedy, the tragedy 
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There seems to be an assumption here that everywhere's been giving free passes for the over 75s. Absolutely not so. I skied in Les Saisies earlier this year, at 76, and got a few bob off the normal adult price. There is no "welfare" argument for giving anyone free passes - nobody poor goes skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| johnE wrote: |
| I have to admit, as being over 65 myself I don't get the logic of all the benefits you get by just being old. |
the old vote, the young don't and there are currently a lot of them so UK govt. likes to give free stuff. It is not quite so good in France where skiing used to have more modest roots - Courchevel was originally conceived as a "people's ski resort" and the old people's discounts were welcome. Still even in France pensioners are generally better off than workers, just not that well off.
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| pam w wrote: |
| There is no "welfare" argument for giving anyone free passes - nobody poor goes skiing. |
Rubbish. Poor skiing tourists from the UK, maybe not. But if you're trying to tell me that the average Savoyard is rich, you're delusional. There's certainly a welfare argument for them.
I'm sure these free passes were originally brought in primarily so local grandparents could do a couple of green runs with their family at Xmas and half term on their 25 year old equipment just for old time's sake. They're no source of revenue. It was a kind gesture from the lift company to those that supported the infrastructure for the real revenue making stream - tourists - over their working lifetime.
They never expected to see the same age tourists in any significant numbers but increasing life expectancy and their leaseback drive towards foreign ownership means that's exactly what they've got. Ageing foreign property owners. EU discrimination rules mean they're not allowed to give a free lift pass only to Savoyard over 75s (same as they're not allowed to give local owners/workers' discounts) so the losers are exactly those that would meet a "welfare" argument.
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| Quote: |
I'm sure these free passes were originally brought in primarily so local grandparents could do a couple of green runs with their family
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And spend money in the resort shops and bars. Just visit the restaurants at lunch time and see how many non skiers are there, many are getting on a bit. Actually, I am also suprised by how many empty wine bottles are on the tabe as well.
It is suprising just how many people in the resort ski very little. I met a lady one Wednesday morning who confessed it was her first days skiing that trip. She had arrived on the Sunday but waited for perfect weather. I suppose exactly the type free lift passes were designed for.
ps I'm not sure it was aimed at "local" grandparents, just grandparents in general. The lady I met was from Paris.
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If there's a welfare argument for providing free or reduced cost prices to poor Savoyards why is their age relevant? And why is it relevant whether they are Savoyards? Or from Paris, perhaps. Or Corsica? Or Stuttgart? Or Milan?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not Corsicans. We have seen in the past what happens with Corsicans in France
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| pam w wrote: |
| If there's a welfare argument for providing free or reduced cost prices to poor Savoyards why is their age relevant? And why is it relevant whether they are Savoyards? Or from Paris, perhaps. Or Corsica? Or Stuttgart? Or Milan? |
Please keep up. They cannot give free passes just to locals because of discrimination laws. It's only relevant to Savoyards because they have supported the local tourist industry that made the lift company rich in the first place. You've already made the argument that tourists don't deserve free passes, now you're saying location's irrelevant??? How has a Milano contributed to Savoie productivity?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'm sure these free passes were originally brought in primarily so local grandparents could do a couple of green runs with their family
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And spend money in the resort shops and bars. Just visit the restaurants at lunch time and see how many non skiers are there, many are getting on a bit. Actually, I am also suprised by how many empty wine bottles are on the tabe as well.
It is suprising just how many people in the resort ski very little. I met a lady one Wednesday morning who confessed it was her first days skiing that trip. She had arrived on the Sunday but waited for perfect weather. I suppose exactly the type free lift passes were designed for.
ps I'm not sure it was aimed at "local" grandparents, just grandparents in general. The lady I met was from Paris. |
Fair and very relevant points, all. The grandparents come along on the family holiday primarily in a babysitting capacity but want to have lunch up the mountain with their skiing offspring. There's probably a strong argument for saying that if cheap family babysitting isn't available, maybe the family doesn't come skiing at all and everybody loses.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Je suis un Skieur, I was trying to flush out the criteria you are proposing should be used in an ideal world. So far I've failed. Why is age relevant to your welfare argument? What about a fellow born in Paris but spent most of his life in Savoie and contributed lots locally. Or his neighbour, born in the Savoie but made a killing as an immo in Guadeloupe, now got a gorgeous chalet in Megeve, transported plank by plank at enormous expense from a farmstead in eastern Europe?
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@Je suis un Skieur, Milano probably not but it’s near neighbour tonino certainly was Savoyard.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| @Je suis un Skieur, I was trying to flush out the criteria you are proposing should be used in an ideal world. So far I've failed. Why is age relevant to your welfare argument? What about a fellow born in Paris but spent most of his life in Savoie and contributed lots locally. Or his neighbour, born in the Savoie but made a killing as an immo in Guadeloupe, now got a gorgeous chalet in Megeve, transported plank by plank at enormous expense from a farmstead in eastern Europe? |
I'm not proposing anything. There's no need because the system already exists and has done for 50 odd years. I am merely pointing out that the intended original prime beneficiaries (locals) have probably now become a much smaller percentage of the scheme's uptake due to general global travel expansion and foreign investment. So cancelling the scheme carte blanche has the greatest negative impact on exactly the demographic it was originally intended to benefit.
You are the one who stated,
| pam w wrote: |
| There is NO logic in a free pass for people over a certain age |
and,
| pam w wrote: |
| There is no "welfare" argument for giving anyone free passes - nobody poor goes skiing. |
I disagree with both statements. Please provide the factual evidence for your statements to convince me otherwise.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I suspect one of the drivers for change has been that the move to fully electronic gates means that they know exactly how much skiing people actually do, split by at least the age bandings they currently use and possibly other demographics.
So they perhaps know that a significant proportion of those over 75 ski just as much as their younger counterparts (or maybe even more if they don't have childcare responsibilities).
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't disagree and perhaps more importantly, they can also tell what nationality and/or French Department the recipient is from from the mandatory proof of age check. I'm sure somebody has done the calculation to say that the opportunity cost of people within commuting distance deciding to ski less frequently because the pass is no longer free is outweighed by the income from the near mandatory uptake of the reduced cost pass for older foreign investors and veteran holidaymakers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Exactly - it's a purely commercial decision and probably always was, but the numbers change. The argument for, or against, giving people financial advantages purely on account of their age is not "factual", so I can't provide the requested "facts". When I got 15 consecutive cheap season passes it wasn't because I was local, or a property owner, it was purely because I bought it before an autumnal deadline. Anyone could have it, just like anyone who books a flight to Geneva late on a Tuesday evening can have a cheap flight. Sensible commercial decisions. As for poor people not skiing, I suspect it's as true in France as it is in the UK and I can see no reason why a not-very-well-off "Savoyard" (whatever that means) should be favoured over and above a not-very-well-off Parisian. Or Italian.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, I very much doubt that it was originally a commercial decision, it was a loyalty benefit. It has literally only become a commercial decision this coming season.
I'm not surprised that you were happy to get reduced season passes for 15 years, (could have been 40+ if you were a local) but think that only a few bob off for being 76 was fair. I bet if you do the maths you were considerably better off that way over a lifetime's skiing.
The 3Vs argument is the opposite. They have never given season pass concessions. so the net effect on a lifetime local skier of a free pass for the short skiing time left over 75 is far less than decades worth of discounts. Hence why it's viewed as a loyalty benefit.
There will be quiet uproar over this decision. Courchevel in particular has been profligate in its spending in recent years with several brown envelope suggested scandals. They didn't run some lifts at all last season, ran many others at slow speed to save electricity and say they can't justify repairing the iconic Saulire cable car. Now they want to penalise the little people by removing the only freebie they've ever given. It's not a good look.
The age at which the freebie is given is just a variable, it doesn't alter the principle that a free pass at some point is giving something back and now they're giving nothing back.
PS:
Savoyard
/səˈvɔɪɑːd,ˌsavɔɪˈɑːd/
adjective
relating to or characteristic of the French region of Savoy or its inhabitants.
"censorship in the Savoyard kingdom"
noun
a native or inhabitant of the French region of Savoy.
"he is a Savoyard from the French Alps"
Surprised you don't know that considering how long you spent there!
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It makes no sense to give out free passes to anyone. Yes a discount as generally a 80 year old is going to ski less than a 30 year old. Generally. But free is daft. Of course those approach 75 are going to be peeved as they have probably been looking forward to it for years as they pay full price on the lead up to it but I'm quite sure that anyone who looks at it objectively will appreciate that is makes no sense for the lift co to do that. The 75% discount offered by the 3V is generous to say the least.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the argument is very simple. Most of it was outlined here:
| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'm sure these free passes were originally brought in primarily so local grandparents could do a couple of green runs with their family
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And spend money in the resort shops and bars. Just visit the restaurants at lunch time and see how many non skiers are there, many are getting on a bit. Actually, I am also suprised by how many empty wine bottles are on the tabe as well.
It is suprising just how many people in the resort ski very little. I met a lady one Wednesday morning who confessed it was her first days skiing that trip. She had arrived on the Sunday but waited for perfect weather. I suppose exactly the type free lift passes were designed for.
ps I'm not sure it was aimed at "local" grandparents, just grandparents in general. The lady I met was from Paris. |
The veteran generation aren't wearing out the lifts or scuffing up the slopes, they are spending money in the local businesses. The businesses increase turnover, pay greater local business rates and taxes to the Mairie which then reinvests (often jointly with the lift co.) in new projects to bring more full price income. It's a virtuous circle.
Send the veterans away and reduce their younger family's spending as a consequence and the revenue ends up in Provence or the Riviera instead of the Alps.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| Please keep up. |
| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| Surprised you don't know that considering how long you spent there! |
It's not helpful to post these sort of thinly veiled insults when other people are trying to have a reasonable debate.
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@denfinella, @pam w, is playing games by pretending she doesn't know what a Savoyard is. I know it, she knows it.
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Of course I know what a Savoyard is, in theory,@jeparleunfrancaiscourantetsuisunvraimontagnard and what a lot of specious marketing nonsense they sometimes talk about it. I recall a co-pro meeting where the boss of MGM, a firm which regularly screwed over small local Savoyard sub-contractors by making them wait months to be paid, tried to reassure the audience that as he spoke to us "en tant que Savoyard" we could put all our trust in his reassurances. Firms like his nail a few bits of wood on top of a vast concrete apartment block and market it as "Savoyard".
I am arguing with you because I found your argument ridiculous. What proof would your theoretical lift pass company demand before deciding somebody was sufficiently Savoyard. A quick rendition of "Etoile des Neiges"? Just place of birth, regardless of how much time somebody had spent in the region? And how can you assert with a straight face that the 3V has never made commercial decisions about ski pass pricing before this year? Pull the other one.
We're both playing games. I enjoy an argument and I'm old, with plenty of time for fun stuff on the internet.
If you want to continue to play this game, I'd be interested (genuinely) to hear your justification for giving people financial concessions of any kind purely because of their age. A policy I have opposed for years in the context of the UK economy. Though I enjoyed mentally hypothecating my OAP's winter fuel payment against a season lift passes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
I am arguing with you because I found your argument ridiculous. What proof would your theoretical lift pass company demand before deciding somebody was sufficiently Savoyard. |
oh that's easy Pam, a blood test. If they are over the drink drive limit before lunch they are a true Savoyard.... erm or a hunter.
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| pam w wrote: |
If you want to continue to play this game, I'd be interested (genuinely) to hear your justification for giving people financial concessions of any kind purely because of their age. A policy I have opposed for years in the context of the UK economy. |
Out of interest, have you renounced your state pension? Your bus pass? Do you (will you? I forgot when it kicks in, if it even still does) insist on paying for a TV license?
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FAQ
