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Is the 2021/2022 in doubt ?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
In terms of the topic and the rules beginning to come out.

There are some huge issues here - there are noticeable problems with the MRNA vaccines in younger adults and children with a condition/s called something like myocarditis which affect the heart in some way. Medics can no doubt expand on this. The risk of the condition appears that in children/teens the balance between covid risk and vaccine risk may swing away from covid risk (as young adults/children have very little risk from covid complication). Both seem very low risk but one even lower.

The decision on a ski holiday with children/teens - could then become one of risk management between very rare vaccine side effects and not being let into European countries without vaccination.

I suspect the UK government is currently wrestling with this over whether children should be vaccinated at all or whether it is very voluntary rather than "encouraged.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Scarlet wrote:
Quote:
From July 1st the EU Vaccination Certificate will be online... EU Citizens can access their individual Government Digital Portals and
obtain the certificate (Providing you have been FULLY approved vaccinated)...

Just to confirm that “fully vaccinated” is not a universally defined term and means different things in different countries.

Quote:
There maybe a situation that the AZN vaccine maybe delisted as an approved vaccine ...because it is not as effective as the Pfizer or Moderna Vaccines with the Delta variant.

This is very unlikely to happen, as AZ has been widely used throughout most of Europe and accounts for circa 50% of vaccinations.
Although significantly it isn't yet approved in the USA, which is apparently holding up any opening of travel in that direction, and may influence rules elsewhere.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

http://youtube.com/v/Udix34rrSio


http://youtube.com/v/SCN-XZ87yzs
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ecureuil wrote:
Scarlet wrote:
Quote:
From July 1st the EU Vaccination Certificate will be online... EU Citizens can access their individual Government Digital Portals and
obtain the certificate (Providing you have been FULLY approved vaccinated)...

Just to confirm that “fully vaccinated” is not a universally defined term and means different things in different countries.

Quote:
There maybe a situation that the AZN vaccine maybe delisted as an approved vaccine ...because it is not as effective as the Pfizer or Moderna Vaccines with the Delta variant.

This is very unlikely to happen, as AZ has been widely used throughout most of Europe and accounts for circa 50% of vaccinations.
Although significantly it isn't yet approved in the USA, which is apparently holding up any opening of travel in that direction, and may influence rules elsewhere.
Small example from the US in recent days: Bruce Springsteen’s Broadway show has just reopened. There is no social distancing or a mask requirement for the audience, but everyone has to show proof of full vaccination to enter the theatre. Vaccination proof is limited to vaccines currently approved by the American authorities, which means AZ would not gain you entry.

I’m not sure there’s an easy answer on global recognition of approved vaccines. Seems to me there are two yardsticks which can be used easily, or some sort of global cherry picking which carries a fair amount of diplomatic risk. The two yardsticks are the country’s own health regulator (which currently would mean the USA not recognising AZ, for example); or using approval by the World Health Organisation (but they have approved the Russian and some of the Chinese vaccines, which I guess will lead to nervousness in countries across the West).
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
In a fit of unbridled optimism, I've just thrown down my 25% deposit with Peak Retreats for a week in Feb.
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rob@rar wrote:
I’m not sure there’s an easy answer on global recognition of approved vaccines. Seems to me there are two yardsticks which can be used easily, or some sort of global cherry picking which carries a fair amount of diplomatic risk. The two yardsticks are the country’s own health regulator (which currently would mean the USA not recognising AZ, for example); or using approval by the World Health Organisation (but they have approved the Russian and some of the Chinese vaccines, which I guess will lead to nervousness in countries across the West).

IMO, if the WHO have approved a vaccine, then all countries should accept it for travel/access purposes. A region's own regulator decides whether a particular product is acceptable/viable for use on their own populations, but other countries should be free to make their own decisions, which may be affected by availability in that part of the world, without disadvantaging their citizens. It also reduces the barriers to uptake, as seen in Slovakia with the Sputnik vaccine. This levels the playing field a little more across the world, and if “nervous” countries have good vaccination rates in their residents, shouldn't cause too many problems if the efficacy in some of the alternatives is a little lower.
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Scarlet wrote:
IMO, if the WHO have approved a vaccine, then all countries should accept it for travel/access purposes. A region's own regulator decides whether a particular product is acceptable/viable for use on their own populations, but other countries should be free to make their own decisions, which may be affected by availability in that part of the world, without disadvantaging their citizens. It also reduces the barriers to uptake, as seen in Slovakia with the Sputnik vaccine. This levels the playing field a little more across the world, and if “nervous” countries have good vaccination rates in their residents, shouldn't cause too many problems if the efficacy in some of the alternatives is a little lower.
I agree, but I can see it not playing very well with public and political opinion in lots of places. In places like the US where there is not a strong steer from national/federal government you can easily imagine a patchwork of confusion about what constitutes a vaccine passport, with different rules across a variety of public and private institutions.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Isn't the main reason AZ isn't approved in the US that there hasn't yet been a submission? Same reason the Russian vaccine hasn't been approved in the UK, no data has been provided for review. Makes sense there is a global clearing house like the WHO looking at efficacy based on the first regulators to consider each vaccine.
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rob@rar wrote:
using approval by the World Health Organisation (but they have approved the Russian and some of the Chinese vaccines, which I guess will lead to nervousness in countries across the West).


As I understand it the concerns about the Russian vaccine (Sputnik V) were around the ethics, speed and accuracy of the clinical trials and initial rollout. In the west we have a cautious testing process with three stages of clinical trial with progressively larger groups, so if the vaccine does cause any serious side effects then as few people as possible are affected. All participants are volunteers doing it for the good of science. With Sputnik V there were reports of the early stage trials being conducted on military personnel who had been pressured into taking part in the trial and the accuracy of the early results was questioned. It's now at the stage that it has been given to millions of people, so you can study its safety and effectiveness in real use. The latest data is still showing that it is comparable to Western vaccines.

Western countries may choose not to use Sputnik V due to the clinical trials, but I see no scientific reason that they treat vaccinated individuals any differently to those who received the Western vaccines. Of course there may be political reasons they don't want to accept it, or that they de-prioritise review of the data.
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thelem wrote:
Western countries may choose not to use Sputnik V due to the clinical trials, but I see no scientific reason that they treat vaccinated individuals any differently to those who received the Western vaccines. Of course there may be political reasons they don't want to accept it, or that they de-prioritise review of the data.
Ive not paid much attention to it, but I believe that some people had concerns about the trial data itself rather than the ethics of the trial protocols. This, for example. If that concern is magnified by a dose of unhealthy vaccine nationalism then I can easily imagine problems with how vaccine passports operate across the globe.
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Well Merkel has now said double jabbed Brits will be allowed into Germany soon. Spain have said similar. Looks like holiday’s back on the menu boys.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
“Soon” another fantastic date to allow planning Eh oh!
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Jonny996, I reckon that, for the foreseeable, any type of planning that involves a non refundable deposit is a big risk. No doubt things will continue to change both for better and worse for a fair few months yet. In view of all the people that have suffered I won't be complaining just because I'm not given any certainty.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@esaw1, my worry is not about losing any deposit but more about the change in government pandering to the minority.
If they keep us restricted to protect the none vaccinated, then that is the patients running the show
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Jonny996 wrote:
“Soon” another fantastic date to allow planning Eh oh!
Yes, “soon” isn’t entirely helpful, but thought it was interesting none the less, given the comments made earlier on about Merkel apparently pushing to make quarantine mandatory for U.K. double jabbed folk. This flies in the face of that and gives me hope again!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
IT may well be that travel restrictions to the EU will have to be reintroduced after the summer if not before ...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/05/will-uk-rising-covid-cases-increase-risk-of-vaccine-evasive-variants
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@stanton, With the EU's somewhat lackadaisical uptake of vaccines it may be that travel restrictions from the EU may have to be introduced after the summer if not before.....
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@esaw1, That's not really true though. This is where getting your doses in arms as quickly as you can gets you:



The latest UK value is given as 67%, so at 59% Portugal and Denmark are not far off. A turn-up-and-wait vaccine drive in Tirol on Sunday saw 13,000 (over 1.7% of the population) people queuing round the block for their jabs, enough that several more sessions have now been booked in. Around 90% of over 75s and 80% of over 65s have received at least one dose. I wouldn't call that lackadaisical.
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Hmm, that image is a bit small. Here's a zoom:

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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Scarlet wrote:

The latest UK value is given as 67%, so at 59% Portugal and Denmark are not far off. A turn-up-and-wait vaccine drive in Tirol on Sunday saw 13,000 (over 1.7% of the population) people queuing round the block for their jabs, enough that several more sessions have now been booked in. Around 90% of over 75s and 80% of over 65s have received at least one dose. I wouldn't call that lackadaisical.


Delta variant is still quite potent against only a single shot.

Population of the UK is 6x that of portugal.. It is easier for smaller countries to deliver Jabs. Malta is doing wonders.
so while 6m portuguese have had the first shot, 45m brits have had a single shot & over 33m (50%) have had both shots.
In Wales, the % numbers is considerably higher than the rest of the UK. 70% of 18-30yr olds have had at least 1 jab & even the 40 somethings are in the 70% range for 2nd jab.

However, the vaccine is working & we can all start looking beyond daily infections, as the risk in death has dropped considerably.
Hospitalisation has dropped to 10% of what they was during the 2nd wave as well.
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Neath Port Talbot has had only one death in weeks*, and while the 7-day rolling cases per 100k IS up a bit, , it's low.

* Wales doesn't record in the '28 days' system, rather, what a clinician records as COD. 1.74 mil have had 2 jabs.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 6-07-21 19:42; edited 1 time in total
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@Scarlet, Thank you for your useful info. My post was meant slightly tongue in cheek as it was addressed to Stanton.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@esaw1, well I wouldn’t take too much notice of him, though I agree it’s annoying to see so much clearly false info. I’m also aware that the British press mostly only seem to post bad corona news stories from Europe, so there may be a skewed perspective. Things are really quite good in most places wink
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well here in Germany, i thinkg we are on the wrong way. Until now i was pretty sure that the saison 2021/2022 will be almost als usual...ok, maybe without apres, without this or that but generally will be ok.
Now with the Delta Mutation they start slowly moving to the wrong direction....
The Pfizer Vac is not so good against Delta, althouth the vaccines etc many will die bla bla bla
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I also wonder just what will happen if PCR tests are retained as a requirement for entry to Alpine countries. At the moment, international arrivals in the UK are about 10% of what they'd be in a typical month, pre-Pandemic. So I see it going two ways from the current base of relatively low demand for PCR tests: a rapid expansion in capacity and reduction in cost vs a huge excess of demand over lab capacity and a massive hike in cost (or even problems in getting PCR tests in the first place). It may hinge on how easy/difficult it is to scale-up x10 the testing capacity .... Of course, countries faced with a test crisis may just drop the requirement altogether for fully-vaccinated people.
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@LaForet, I don’t think PCR tests are required for either Austria or Switzerland, an antigen test will suffice. I don’t think France require them either (though I may be wrong on that). Mostly, it’s only the UK who are insisting on PCR testing.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I was 85% optimistic about next season....by which I mean proof of double vaccination is all that would be needed. That has dropped to 65%, as a result of the Delta variant - or indeed future variants mixed with normal Winter infections putting pressure on hospitals.

Sensible precautions in resort are not a problem. The need for expensive tests might well be.

I am certainly not confident about booking anything - and probably won't be until much nearer the time.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

I am certainly not confident about booking anything - and probably won't be until much nearer the time.



Well @@Lampbus and I have the PreBB and the BB booked in Jan/early Feb next year because currently we are happier to go via @admid than via a tour operator etc. - not that we have ever used a tour operator before...but just in principle.

Other than that we are booked for the week after Easter in Ischgl - this is not a new booking but our original Easter 2020 booking which we had to re-schedule twice....

I have two weeks booked off work early December this year but we are not booking anything till nearer the time because a) snow cover early in the season and b) needs to be somewhere with sensible policies & we actually need to be allowed in & out....(we will obviously be doubly vaccinated and I just wish they would get organised on the vaccination passport because quite frankly I feel discriminated against being prevented from travelling because of other people's choices - I am happy to live with the consequences of my choices but so should other's be if people can get vaccinated but choose not to for none-medical reasons that is their decision and their problem not mine....ultimately action equals reaction.)
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Scarlet wrote:
@LaForet, I don’t think PCR tests are required for either Austria or Switzerland, an antigen test will suffice. I don’t think France require them either (though I may be wrong on that). Mostly, it’s only the UK who are insisting on PCR testing.


if you are 11 or over and coming from a Cat 3 country you need Vaccines and negative PCR test to visit France

Quote:


3. Catégorie 3 : Pour les voyageurs de onze ans ou plus souhaitant venir en France en provenance d’autres pays que ceux mentionnés dans les catégories 1 et 2 :

s’ils sont en mesure d’apporter la preuve d’avoir reçu la totalité des doses prescrites pour l’un des vaccins reconnus par l’agence européenne des médicaments, ne sont pas soumis au régime des motifs impérieux. Ils devront présenter à l’embarquement :
un justificatif de statut vaccinal,
le résultat négatif d’un test PCR réalisé moins de 72h avant le vol ou d’un test antigénique (TAG) réalisé moins de 48h avant le vol,
ainsi qu’une déclaration sur l’honneur attestant d’une absence de symptômes d’infection à la covid-19 et de contact avec un cas confirmé de covid-19 ;



if you check here the UK is a cat 3 country

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/le-ministere-et-son-reseau/actualites-du-ministere/informations-coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-les-reponses-a-vos-questions/#sommaire_1

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/conseils-aux-voyageurs/conseils-par-pays-destination/royaume-uni/

One of the measures taken since the start of the week is to make sure these controls are being done by the border control - they've turned 14,000 people back over the last days.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
davidof wrote:
if you are 11 or over and coming from a Cat 3 country you need Vaccines and negative PCR test to visit France

Quote:


3. Catégorie 3 : Pour les voyageurs de onze ans ou plus souhaitant venir en France en provenance d’autres pays que ceux mentionnés dans les catégories 1 et 2 :

s’ils sont en mesure d’apporter la preuve d’avoir reçu la totalité des doses prescrites pour l’un des vaccins reconnus par l’agence européenne des médicaments, ne sont pas soumis au régime des motifs impérieux. Ils devront présenter à l’embarquement :
un justificatif de statut vaccinal,
le résultat négatif d’un test PCR réalisé moins de 72h avant le vol ou d’un test antigénique (TAG) réalisé moins de 48h avant le vol,
ainsi qu’une déclaration sur l’honneur attestant d’une absence de symptômes d’infection à la covid-19 et de contact avec un cas confirmé de covid-19 ;

It says an antigen test is acceptable.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The biggest confusion is whether is over 11 or 11 and over. THis site says over the age of 11 - https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Travel-France-Under-18s-covered-by-parent-s-Covid-vaccine-status , but the above says 11 and over. This website seems to support the 11 and over position - https://uk.ambafrance.org/COVID-19-rules-for-travel-to-France-and-the-UK#t1-Travelling-from-the-UK-to-France
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FrediKanoute wrote:
The biggest confusion is whether is over 11 or 11 and over. THis site says over the age of 11 - https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Travel-France-Under-18s-covered-by-parent-s-Covid-vaccine-status , but the above says 11 and over. This website seems to support the 11 and over position - https://uk.ambafrance.org/COVID-19-rules-for-travel-to-France-and-the-UK#t1-Travelling-from-the-UK-to-France


This is also on French government documentation

Quote:
The compelling reasons and quarantine measures applied to vaccinated adults extend, under the same conditions, to accompanying minors, whether or not they are vaccinated.


on the bottom of this pdf https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/content/download/128462/1024902/file/deplacements-internationaux-depuis-et-vers-la-france.pdf
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FrediKanoute wrote:
The biggest confusion is whether is over 11 or 11 and over. THis site says over the age of 11 - https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Travel-France-Under-18s-covered-by-parent-s-Covid-vaccine-status , but the above says 11 and over. This website seems to support the 11 and over position - https://uk.ambafrance.org/COVID-19-rules-for-travel-to-France-and-the-UK#t1-Travelling-from-the-UK-to-France


I imagine "over the age of 11" means anyone who has had their 11th birthday.

This confusion is one reason child age groups are often quoted as e.g. "Under 11s".
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After reading the various posts on this thread over the last 14 days and doing my own research I've come to the conclusion that the season 2021/22 is probably f***ed. I am however an eternal optimist and have two trips booked for Christmas (Monte Rosa) and Grindelwald at the end of January both with monies refundable if it goes t*ts up also a flight to Innsbruck accomodation and resort to be decided nearer the time for the 2nd week in December once again switchable. In the meantime I'll carry on with my cycling to keep me fit and mountain ready and my mojo intact. I'm almost enjoying my long endurance bikes rides almost as much as skinning up mountain sides. I'm fortunate to live on the edge of the Trough of Bowland with access to some wonderful back roads and tracks. The big plus is that I've lost a lot of weight and I'm only 7 lbs heavier than my cycle racing days in my teens and twenties. When the mountains call me back again I'll be one lean mean machine. LOL as my nephew's would say.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

I've come to the conclusion that the season 2021/22 is probably f***ed. I am however an eternal optimist

You could probably be slightly more optimistic! wink
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The trips booked are my optimistic side. There's an argument going on in my head between realism and optimism. Eh oh!
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Snowbandit56 wrote:
The trips booked are my optimistic side. There's an argument going on in my head between realism and optimism. Eh oh!

You're just right.....Remember, the definition of an Optimist, is somebody who puts Prunes on their All-Bran.....or is that the definition of a Pessimist? - I can never remember! Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I've booked accommodation in GM 6 weeks Jan-Feb. 100% cancellation for any reason to 20th December. I'll book refundable Chunnel tickets soon, but I'll hold off ski season passes till early December- just before the half-price ends.
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PASS SANITAIRE

It has been confirmed that because ski lifts are considered to be public transport (rather than long distance transport), you will not be required to have a pass sanitaire to access them.
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Timmycb5 wrote:
PASS SANITAIRE

It has been confirmed that because ski lifts are considered to be public transport (rather than long distance transport), you will not be required to have a pass sanitaire to access them.


Trying to get conformation. Aiguille du Midi is over 50 persons per cabin and will be subject to pass sanitaire!
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