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Is the 2021/2022 in doubt ?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Layne, you asked about the pandemics to which I was referring and the link had two.

No I wouldn't fly. Then again, C19 was never going and hasn't created a situation where lots of 60yo died. Very, very few people under the age of about seventy did. 'Long Covid' is barely even recognised let alone understood. I've yet to see how it's any different from a normal post-viral syndrome and why this should justify what's been done.

@philwig, how many people travel to Iceland on a daily basis? It's having to deal with t wats like you that just insist that if we all go along with the rules it'll be fine that's the abnormality. I see you've used the smear word of the brain-dead: 'alt-right'. It's the leftist, remain-voting weirdos that are shouting for more restrictions and obedience in my experience, bizarrely to a man whose election win and starting of the Brexit process was seen as being the end times. Remember when it was going to be a disaster leading to economic collapse? Let me know when it happens.

The main point is, which is blindingly obvious to most, is that withholding basic rights until you obey the State is vile. They are innate rights we are born with and not favours to be given out by Johnson et al when he feels like it. Going to the pub, seeing whomever you wish whenever you wish, leaving the country: these were all taken for granted and the fact that you regard heli-skiing in Iceland as comparable to being able to hug others at a funeral shows what an ocean-going tosser you are.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@boobleblooble, Your innane "rights" are actually priviledges that you are lucky enough to have by being born in a Country that allows them.

Occasionally, these need to be suspended or surrendered for the common good. War and Pandemic being 2 reasons.

And, the reason fewer people under 60 died was because the lockdown rules spread the effects of the virus over a longer period, allowing the NHS to (just about) cope with the numbers of critical cases.

Had all those cases occurred in the first 2 months, then the number hospitalised cases, and therefore deaths would have been considerably higher due to lack of basic resources, including Oxygen.

Or would you simply have allocated these to the youngest cases, and let all the older ones die?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@boobleblooble, I chose a long time ago not to interact with you but I'll make an exception.

You remind me of aristocrats preaching socialism in the 19th century. The words may sound right and noble but you actually have no experience of the real issues, and your proposed solutions, if implemented, lead to disaster.

I actually lived in a country which took away basic rights and I know what it's like. I also know that there's a world of difference between governments trying their best to respond to an emergency, with limited info, trying to avoid a catastrophe and emphasizing all the time that they want to go back to normal, and on the other side a totalitarian government.

You may be sincere. But in fact, if you were paid by someone like Putin to sow doubt and confusion in democratic governments, he'd give you a bonus.

If you really are sincere, then try to understand that many of us have considered exactly the same issues and care about the same freedoms, and concluded that the current approach is the best in a bad situation. Try to actually convince people of your points by building an argument, rather than preaching and always asking leading questions.
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@brianatab, I've done it before but yet again: the NHS was "overwhelmed" to use the tedious word again. Large numbers of operations and cancer care were binned. The numbers of excess deaths at home increased sharply as many died at home instead of ringing 999 for chest pain or stroke symptoms. They were just as dead as those who died of C19 but they weren't counted in the C19 figures so may as well not have existed. What really happened was ITU, a tiny part of the Health Service managed to cope with the numbers it had. It did this by simply discouraging other critical patients from being admitted, or those who might need CC e.g. post-operative patients. The NHS runs on fumes normally so it was never, ever going to be able to cope with even a minor pandemic like this on top. Yes, this is a minor pandemic. Set it against those throughout history and despite having the advantage of air travel etc it's been nothing like those as far back as the Roman era.

You say that pandemics are a reason: as I've been saying for post after post we have had pandemics this bad before and have not taken away rights like this before. We just haven't. Stop suggesting that this is a routine procedure because it's not.

How do you know we'd have run out of oxygen?? Where did you get that from, the India coverage?

@horizon, yet I'm advocating for more freedom, not less. This is a skiing forum and likely full of the middle-class types who worked from home throughout or had furlough. The working classes went out and cleaned hospitals and drove buses: I believe deaths were skewed towards manual labourers/tradesmen although there will be many factors to that e.g. previous health. They had to go out and work whilst others could call for lockdowns whilst safe at home, safely employed. The poor have been hit far, far harder than the rich.

Regardless of your personal experience and the government's motivations we have ended up with an authoritarian government. Many of the decisions made went through the Cabinet and not Parliament. It has already been found that Johnson shutting the schools had no basis in law i.e. he wasn't allowed to demand it. £10,000 fines for parties, handed out by and ordinary PC? Magistrate's courts rarely give out fines that large and there is a process with a defence, not just some bobby shafting someone on the spot. Guidance has been treated like law. Peaceful protestors of various strips have been assaulted by Police dressed for a riot, although this tended to vary based on the cause.

Oh and just to twist your tail: I worked for the NHS through the first and second waves. I had to explain to a man whose wife had just died why her cancer treatment was just stopped. Not delayed or transferred elsewhere, just stopped. She received a phone call and was told that the next appointment had been cancelled. When they got back to her two months later to offer her another it was too late. He will not have been the only one.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
you actually voted for and got the authoritarian govt before the pandemic
in 2 consecutive elections
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boobleblooble wrote:
@Layne, you asked about the pandemics to which I was referring and the link had two.

Your link is broken. However, I understand what you are referring to. What you are missing is a bit of historical perspective as discussed in this article

It's not 1957 or indeed 1968. At that time their were no drink driving laws, people didn't wear seat belts and homosexuality was illegal. Things change, things move on. Medically and morally things are no longer acceptable as they might have been then. Although as noted in that article more could have and should have been done even then.

boobleblooble wrote:
No I wouldn't fly. Then again, C19 was never going and hasn't created a situation where lots of 60yo died. Very, very few people under the age of about seventy did.

Of the 579,029 deaths caused by COVID-19 in the United States (as of May 26) nearly around 9,000 were under 40, 17,500 between 40 and 49 and over 90,000 from 50 to 64.

boobleblooble wrote:
'Long Covid' is barely even recognised let alone understood.

On the first part https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/17/almost-third-recovered-covid-patients-return-hospital-five-months/

On the second, yes it's not fully understood but that is no reason to ignore it.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 8-06-21 11:42; edited 4 times in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@boobleblooble, I've not been on furlough or worked remotely, I've worked throughout this away from home and I think you underestimate the problem by a big deal. The biggest problem with C19 has not just been deaths but the unpredictability on how it effects peoples health, I have a colleague who had it a few months ago and he's still feeling the aftereffects even now.

There's even a chance I may have had it too but had no symptoms when I went to Wengen in March last year as my travel not only involved a flight but also several train stops on the way there, that's the problem, it has nothing to do with our Government being authoritarian. You come off as one of those conspiracy theory types and to be honest, I won't give what you say much consideration.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@andy, I voted for a Conservative and it would've been nice if I'd bloody got one!

@RichardB, I'm afraid your colleague is only one person amongst millions. I highly doubt that the poor-established after-effects of C19 are more important than cancer detection and all the other essential functions of the NHS.

Nothing I've said is either conspiracy or theory. 'Conspiracy theorist' is just another word like 'Brexs hit' or 'R emoaner' which shows that the user has stopped bothering to think. I don't think the Government set out to become this way, but through incompetence, cowardice and lack of resistance from the public has ended up like this. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that this isn't just some bureaucratic mistake and goes far deeper than just some dodgy, overly-expensive procurement contract? People are now beginning to mistrust the government and science on a fundamental level.
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@boobleblooble, Lol. You voted Tory and are complaining about this government flashing their authoritarian tendencies? Anyone with half an eye on things has known this is the direction of travel for the Tory party since the brexit referendum. Any government that appoints a capital punishment advocate as home secretary quite clearly has a particular leaning.

As for you anecdotal evidence, it is just that.... anecdotal. I can also provide more anecdotal evidence to completely counter yours. My wife's uncle was diagnosed, treated and completely cured of tongue and throat cancer all during the pandemic. I was admitted to hospital, treated and discharged (with kidney stones) during the peak of the first wave/lockdown. I'm sure there were lots more like me and my wife's uncle.

And I'm afraid you DO come across as a bit tinfoil hatty. You demand citation for everything anyone else states, but rarely back up your assertions with citation. A standard tell of someone with views not backed up with facts.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@boobleblooble, If you worked for the NHS through the first 2 waves, then you should be aware of how many of the other wards in most hospitals were taken over for use with Covid patients, who whilst not critical at that point in time, still required monitoring due to their conditions. There were also many formerly critical patients who still required attention in these wards.

Many of the "routine" operations and treatments simply could not happen for 2 reasons. Firstly, the very high risk of catching the virus in the Hospital, and secondly, because there were not enough beds available.

The Private health sector helped to a small extent with some treatments. They could have done more, but wanted to charge the NHS their normal high rates.
I would have supported the Government having the power to commandeer these facilities, and compensate for the use at NHS rates.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Timmycb5, hang on really?? What have they done prior to C19 that was authoritarian? It was the Conservatives that resisted Blair's ID cards and 90 days without trial. May's security bill, whatever it was called wasn't great however. The general trend of politics is towards the authoritarian but the Conservatives were the least of it. Don't forget Corbyn spending his career associating with Palestinian terrorists, Irish Republican terrorists and Communists all over.

OK well how about these for evidence then: https://www.macmillan.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/we-make-change-happen/we-shape-policy/covid-19-impact-cancer-report.html. First search engine link! Also see Prof Karol Sikora's Twitter account where he has been detailing the drop in diagnoses for months now.

Waiting lists (which would cover elective renal stone removal etc): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56763789.

Half of what I say doesn't need citation because so much is established fact: the NHS is doing worse off. Government restrictions have caused misery. £370 billion has been spent on the pandemic so far.

@brianatab, bed occupancy was less partly because money was shifted across to CC and C19 in general: what about everyone else? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55536762. The private sector beds WERE used! That was the disgrace. So many tried to get private treatment but couldn't as fools like you screamed for private beds to be bought and they were, except there are virtually no or maybe even any private CC beds. CC is expensive to run and makes little profit. I note your creepy demand to "commandeer" private property there. Here's your link anyway: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8387187/Private-hospitals-commandeered-Britains-Covid-19-crisis-empty.html.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Well this has wandered off down some weird rabbit hole.

@boobleblooble, for the sake of the thread, I suggest you give it up. You won't change anyone's mind & everyone else sure as hell won't change yours.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@boobleblooble, You're just being a pain in the rear end on an otherwise useful and interesting thread. Please just wind your neck in.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Layne, it was ~12,000 in the UK as of January. These are small numbers when you consider around that many die in a week anyway in a normal year. Not necessarily of that age group but the number itself is not that high. Secondly, how many of those would have died anyway over the period from other conditions? Lastly, how is the number of deaths in that group compared to normal, are there excess deaths in the young compared to previous years? We've had similar excess deaths in 2020 to 2000 and also 2008 (I think it was). I can't find the American figures so have used the UK ones instead.

The article doesn't recommend mandatory masking or lockdowns however. Using 'times have changed' is a poor argument and I would still argue for freedom of the individual over government intervention. I regularly see patients make very unwise choices, considerably more unwise than going without a seatbelt yet I am not allowed to compel or coerce them into hospital for treatment. Drink-driving affects others and homosexual rights are immaterial: if anything I would argue against laws for the first, for laws for the second and decriminalise the last.

I've not suggested ignoring 'long-covid' just not using it as a reason for removing group and individual freedom. It's just not strong enough. It's also worth pointing out that the article does not state if those being re-admitted are dying directly as a result of covid-related problems or something else. It also doesn't describe whether those patients were diagnosed with conditions specifically because the increased number of investigations whilst being treated for covid found them: when was the last time the average non-diabetic took their blood sugar?

@esaw1, skip over my posts if you're bothered.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
boobleblooble wrote:
@Layne, it was ~12,000 in the UK as of January. These are small numbers when you consider around that many die in a week anyway in a normal year. Not necessarily of that age group but the number itself is not that high. Secondly, how many of those would have died anyway over the period from other conditions? Lastly, how is the number of deaths in that group compared to normal, are there excess deaths in the young compared to previous years? We've had similar excess deaths in 2020 to 2000 and also 2008 (I think it was). I can't find the American figures so have used the UK ones instead.

You keep moving the goalposts and putting out vague statements and questions.

boobleblooble wrote:
Using 'times have changed' is a poor argument

Why?

boobleblooble wrote:
I regularly see patients make very unwise choices, considerably more unwise than going without a seatbelt yet I am not allowed to compel or coerce them into hospital for treatment. Drink-driving affects others and homosexual rights are immaterial: if anything I would argue against laws for the first, for laws for the second and decriminalise the last.

Unwise choices that only affect the individual are one thing, unwise choices that affect others is another. And you appear to have missed the general point which was that the action taken in the 50's or 60's doesn't constitute a blueprint for what we do today.

boobleblooble wrote:
I've not suggested ignoring 'long-covid' just not using it as a reason for removing group and individual freedom.

Surely that is the same thing?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Layne, I've explained why I used the UK figures and why I believe those numbers are very few.

Why have times changed? What new evidence is there? Simply saying that we have different opinions and better technology doesn't mean the previous methods were wrong.

Not wearing a seatbelt only affects the individual. Drink-driving kills others. Homosexual rights are a matter for the individual. My reference to the previous century is also that the methods we've used now are unprecedented yet without the evidence to support them in the first place and indeed now.

'Long covid' is not severe enough by the figures you suggest to impose the controls that have been. That's not ignoring it's weighing in the balance with other things.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
boobleblooble wrote:
@Layne, I've explained why I used the UK figures and why I believe those numbers are very few.

You said "C19 was never going and hasn't created a situation where lots of 60yo died. Very, very few people under the age of about seventy did.". The US figures show that isn't true. And Brazil also shows that isn't true. You argue against UK's over zealous restrictions and then use the "very few" case numbers to support it. Do you not see the flaw in your logic?

boobleblooble wrote:
Why have times changed? What new evidence is there? Simply saying that we have different opinions and better technology doesn't mean the previous methods were wrong.

The first ICU's were only established in the 50's. People thought nothing could be done. Vaccine development wasn't it was today. Communications were much poorer. There were other diseases and societal issues, there weren't the means of economic support,etc, etc.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
boobleblooble wrote:
I believe deaths were skewed towards manual labourers/tradesmen although there will be many factors to that e.g. previous health. They had to go out and work whilst others could call for lockdowns whilst safe at home, safely employed. The poor have been hit far, far harder than the rich.


Not sure what any of this has got to do with the 2021/2022 season which IMO will definitely be on and in full (at least for anyone vaccinated!

But the fact that you argue on the one hand that hardly anyone under 70 died and on the other that deaths skewed towards manual labourers/tradesmen rather shows up the quality of your logic.
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@Layne, the argument is over semantics. Out of a population of 325 million and removing those who would likely have died that year anyway from other conditions then no, I don't think it's a lot. I don't know what normal weekly US deaths are but I did show that the UK has had a week's worth of deaths in the younger groups.

ICUs can be staffed with or without lockdowns. Vaccine development would not have been slowed by lockdowns. In the 1950s they had the advantage of a less-crowded country and much slower travel. I still don't see how this supports your argument. 'Lockdowns until vaccine' have been hideously expensive: would more lives have been saved spending it all on cancer research? Someone else made some comment about vague questions but if you support an intervention e.g. lockdowns then it's up to you to prove the case.

@BobinCH, it doesn't. Those of working age who had to go out were more likely to die than those who stayed at home and supported lockdowns. I was rebutting someone else's point that I didn't care because I was like an aristo supporting socialism when the poor were worst off. Besides the working-age population is under 70 for obvious reasons.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
boobleblooble wrote:
Out of a population of 325 million and removing those who would likely have died that year anyway from other conditions then no, I don't think it's a lot.

Then we will simply have to disagree.
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So, do you all think we will get to have our ski holiday next winter?
I really hope so.
No need for reasons why we may or may not.
I’m sure lots of us just want something to look forward to.
Fingers crossed for all of us looking forward to next season.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Eggfried100 wrote:
So, do you all think we will get to have our ski holiday next winter?
I really hope so.
No need for reasons why we may or may not.
I’m sure lots of us just want something to look forward to.
Fingers crossed for all of us looking forward to next season.


possibly, but it wont be like years gone by in my humble opinion.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

possibly, but it wont be like years gone by in my humble opinion.


I agree. But as long as we get to ski, that will do me for now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Eggfried100 wrote:
Quote:

possibly, but it wont be like years gone by in my humble opinion.


I agree. But as long as we get to ski, that will do me for now.


Where do you normally ski?

All my family are likely to be double jabbed (including my teenage kids) by the time it comes to winter. We're hoping to ski in France which should also be fully jabbed by then. I think it will be hard to justify NOT allowing double jabbed people to go.

As above, I don't think apres will happen, and cafe's might be outdoor only, but neither of those things bother me.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Given that most of Europe will have been fully vaccinated by then I’m struggling to see why they would restrict restaurants and probably even après? Switzerland is already allowing indoor restaurants and public gatherings of up to 100 indoors and 300 outdoors from May 31st. The ski season is still 6 months away and the vaccine rollout should improve the situation significantly by then.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@BobinCH, Agreed. But I am sure they're find another variant. I've got Bolivia in the sweepstake.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
BobinCH wrote:
Given that most of Europe will have been fully vaccinated by then I’m struggling to see why they would restrict restaurants and probably even après? Switzerland is already allowing indoor restaurants and public gatherings of up to 100 indoors and 300 outdoors from May 31st. The ski season is still 6 months away and the vaccine rollout should improve the situation significantly by then.


It's just a guess on my part really. Cases are likely to naturally go up during winter as people mix outdoors less. I guess it's just down to the governments of the countries if they're happy to accept higher cases and the risk of mutation for service as normal.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Has anyone noticed the thread title? Puzzled

Just asking.....
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Eggfried100 wrote:
So, do you all think we will get to have our ski holiday next winter?
I really hope so.
No need for reasons why we may or may not.
I’m sure lots of us just want something to look forward to.
Fingers crossed for all of us looking forward to next season.


Personally I'm confident (and have been for some time), we have our first ever 3 week trip planned !

I'd expect that you'll need proof of vaccination, will probably need to wear masks in Gondolas and indoors, sit at tables etc as at present but as dancing on tables is not my thing I'm ok with that. Hopefully 2022/23 will be more back to normal in that respect.

The big unknown is how often a booster is required, I'm expecting most of us will get one before xmas so that should see us through until next summer by which time the situation will be clearer.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I'm with @BobinCH for my train of thought.

I can't see how once the vast majority of our populations are jabbed they will argue against it. There would be uproar across all countries if everyone got the vaccine and still weren't allowed to travel.

I can see reduced capacity with more spread out tables etc perhaps, but i'm expecting (hoping) it'll be pretty much back to normal by then.

1 week in Jan booked, long weekend in March about to be booked, and long weekend for Easter booked. Hopefully a week in December for a L2 course to book up also.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Dunno about booster before Xmas this year, but certainly I expect them to be annual with flu jab (assuming they can be done together), from next year.
In Germany they are already being performed by company nurses, with VW, Lufthansa, Deutsche Bank already doing them, and our company is one in the list to start doing them too. I imagine the same will be true in UK, it if isn't already, at least with large employers.

This season will happen but will be a bit strange for sure. Just wondering how many changes there will be for stuff like self-serve restaurants, hotel buffet etc.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Can only speak for the Welsh situation but Drakeford has continually stated 'data over dates', hence the 21 June timeline isn't relevant in Wales.

Wales is currently in the same situation re deaths and hospitalisations as NZ, but without the closed border.

And yet we're still pretty much 'locked out' - we can do things outdoors but not indoors, except when it comes to large outdoor events.

I'm not hopeful that Welsh people will be able to travel come Winter.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
andy wrote -- "..I expect them to be annual with flu jab (assuming they can be done together)..."

Some research is being done into this in the Doncaster area. They are looking for volunteers who have had one Covid jab to see if a Covid jab given at the same time as a Flu jab is effective

https://www.rdash.nhs.uk/featured/volunteers-needed-for-study-looking-into-whether-covid-19-and-flu-vaccines-can-be-administered-at-the-same-time/
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Mike Pow wrote:
Can only speak for the Welsh situation but Drakeford has continually stated 'data over dates', hence the 21 June timeline isn't relevant in Wales.

Wales is currently in the same situation re deaths and hospitalisations as NZ, but without the closed border.

And yet we're still pretty much 'locked out' - we can do things outdoors but not indoors, except when it comes to large outdoor events.

I'm not hopeful that Welsh people will be able to travel come Winter.


this is my fear, that politics drive the decisions. sincerely hope that we can ski but suspect evidence will be required. also hope that UK can join any EU-wide vaccination certificate scheme. lots of hope...& worry.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
boobleblooble wrote:

@RichardB, I'm afraid your colleague is only one person amongst millions. I highly doubt that the poor-established after-effects of C19 are more important than cancer detection and all the other essential functions of the NHS.


What is it that you can not understand about the simple correlation that more covid would have meant fewer still cancer detections and more treatments having to be delayed?
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Mike Pow wrote:
Can only speak for the Welsh situation but Drakeford has continually stated 'data over dates', hence the 21 June timeline isn't relevant in Wales.

Wales is currently in the same situation re deaths and hospitalisations as NZ, but without the closed border.

And yet we're still pretty much 'locked out' - we can do things outdoors but not indoors, except when it comes to large outdoor events.

I'm not hopeful that Welsh people will be able to travel come Winter.


overseas travel is not banned, just not recommended.

We have fantastic data thanks to the universities like Swansea & the Technium centres along with the SAIL databank.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I can imagine that a lot of people are not going to ski abroad this season.

A worry is that their long term behaviour will be affected and we see a permanent drop in skiing activity. That would affect UK travel companies, airlines and probably ski resorts themselves because it will likely be reproduced in other countries though to a lesser extent.

I could imagine this being the point that many affluent baby boomers who have been skiing since the big growth years of the 1960s - 1980s will use this as the excuse to stop.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
boobleblooble wrote:
@Timmycb5, hang on really?? What have they done prior to C19 that was authoritarian? It was the Conservatives that resisted Blair's ID cards and 90 days without trial. May's security bill, whatever it was called wasn't great however. The general trend of politics is towards the authoritarian but the Conservatives were the least of it. Don't forget Corbyn spending his career associating with Palestinian terrorists, Irish Republican terrorists and Communists all over.

OK well how about these for evidence then: https://www.macmillan.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/we-make-change-happen/we-shape-policy/covid-19-impact-cancer-report.html. First search engine link! Also see Prof Karol Sikora's Twitter account where he has been detailing the drop in diagnoses for months now.

Waiting lists (which would cover elective renal stone removal etc): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56763789.

Half of what I say doesn't need citation because so much is established fact: the NHS is doing worse off. Government restrictions have caused misery. £370 billion has been spent on the pandemic so far.


Not too good at reading, eh? Blair’s government, if I’m not mistaken, happened BEFORE Brexit, by at least a few days, or perhaps more like 8 and years, so I’m not sure why that’s relevant. Probably even less relevant is mentioning (and completely misrepresenting) a useless old man who wasn’t anywhere near the government..

Karol Sikora?! LOLLLL. The fake it ‘till you make it professor who fraudulently claimed professorship? That guy? The one who wants to abolish the NHS? That guy? The one whose only actual “professorship” is at a private medical school for alternative therapies? The guy is a complete joke. You need to find some better sources.
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boobleblooble wrote:
@Layne,

The main point is, which is blindingly obvious to most, is that withholding basic rights until you obey the State is vile. They are innate rights we are born with and not favours to be given out by Johnson et al when he feels like it. Going to the pub, seeing whomever you wish whenever you wish, leaving the country: these were all taken for granted and the fact that you regard heli-skiing in Iceland as comparable to being able to hug others at a funeral shows what an ocean-going tosser you are.


Its a balance though. Your right to hug viz a viz some else's right to live free from illness. Your right to travel viz a viz someone else's right to not have to bury a partner. Your right to go to the pub viz a viz someone else's right not to be vaccinated

I don't necessarily agree with all of the restrictions, but lockdowns do prevent transmission and do as a result keep hospitalisations down and therefore deaths down. I hope the vaccination program gets us to where we are and whilst I don't feel at risk and am quite comfortable and a frustrated about the barriers to international travel, I can see some logic in keeping things tight until we achieve "herd immunity" or the disease becomes endemic.
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andy wrote:
you actually voted for and got the authoritarian govt before the pandemic
in 2 consecutive elections


Sadly too true........worse if an election were held tomorrow the turkey's would vote for them again, blaming lefties, labour and EU for everything that has happened.
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