 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Touring boots do seem to be generally lower. I presume it increases mobility while climbing/walking. Saves a little weight too.
I've got some lighter/softer touring boots than your zero G's and I resorted to thick intuition wrap liners and a booster strap across the top of the LINERS to increase the "cuff height" otherwise I would have to fight "going over the top" especially on a bigger ski (WD R108 186)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
@BobinCH, is your assertion that the 0-Gs have more forward lean? I find mine quite upright?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
If I remember correctly you are running Xenics with toe shims - so it‘s not the binding delta?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @BobinCH, is your assertion that the 0-Gs have more forward lean? I find mine quite upright? |
Yep significantly more than the Alpine boots and these Nordica’s. @Spyderjon put some shims on one set of bindings which helped but I was on the other pair with Shifts at the weekend and was really struggling with how far forward I had to get to stay off the tails.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| DB wrote: |
| If I remember correctly you are running Xenics with toe shims - so it‘s not the binding delta? |
I was on some Shifts at the weekend (not shimmed) so that may be part of it, but you can really see the difference looking at the angle the tongues sit at.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@BobinCH, I am guessing that you didn't fiddle with the adjustable forward lean when you bought them? It is possible to increase this by one degree from stock.
I am sure I recall that Shifts have whopping delta with touring boots. You probably know better than me about them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@BobinCH, well. How very interesting. I had the same sensation (!) but put it down to less forward lean and less ramp angle. My old Sally Labs appear to have more lean ... We are in at the shop on Tuesday ...
One thing - in ~1990 I had SX92 Equipes and you could manually take the forward lean from (memory speaking) near upright (ugh) to near 45° (*) (ugh) and so I kept them on mid position after the usual experimentation and I certainly didn't feel backseated in the forward position if you know what I mean, phnarrr.
* exageration for effect ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
A quick tinternet search says both boots have a forward lean of 12 Deg as standard (Zero-G's can be set to 13 Deg), although I might not be comparing the exact model / year of manufacture.
This link says the shifts have a toe to heel binding height difference of around 7mm for touring boots and 1mm for alpine boots.
https://www.newschoolers.com/news/read/SHIFT-Salomon-Atomic-Toy-Touring-Binding
I've never understood this difference (6mm in this case) as the difference in toe lip thickness of booth sets of boots doesn't look to be anywhere near 6mm. Maybe it's because the sole of the touring boot is curved so they roll better and the lip is positioned differently on the touring boot.
Sally Mtn labs look to be 13 to 15 Deg depending on year of manufacture. (15 Deg = 19/20 model).
I've only just put shims on both pairs of my touring skis recently but haven't skied them offpiste yet.
If I ski one pair of boots for a while then the first run on the other pair takes a little while to get used to again. From touring boots to alpine it's no problem as you have many descents to get used to the alpine boots again. Alpine to touring is more of a problem because you often only get one descent when touring. You might want to try skiing your touring setup on piste for a while and then try them again on a tour. I'm told it's the higher ramp angle that puts the skier in the backseat.
Maybe a spirit level app on your phone coud help compare ramp angles of both sets of boots. (you might have to take the liner out to get the phone in).
Edit : Just used a spirit level app on the iphone (called "Bubble Level") inside both pairs of boots with the liners out. Seeing around 6 Deg inside both pairs of boots which is very similar to my normal shoes.
The touring bindings (Radical 1's) have 7mm shims under the toes. By lifting the heels up approx 7 mm I measured around 9 to 10 Deg.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Assume increasing from 12 to 13 degrees increases the forward lean so would have a negative effect?
I think you’re into something with the curve (or rocker) on the sole. Let’s hope the Striders don’t have this!
Sounds like I need to order more toe shims for the Shifts!
Glad I went with alpine bindings for the new skis rather than Shifts/Marker Duke PT’s
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
So many Parameters......external delta, internal delta, liners, cuff angle. The tecnica you can change, 12°-14°, the easiest way after is with Spoilers, the best are the velcro ones you get with Lange RS/WC boots, they're a deep wedge, on in the front, one at the back, further down into the boot adds more, higher up less, play with both, then one eiter at the back/front, a day skiing whilst messing around should do it. After you should know the direction to work towards, from here you can add gas pedals, and heel lifters. Only you can figure it out. We, can only eyeball your Dorsiflexion and start you off in the right direction. Trying to get two different boots set up the same is by feel only, trying to work out all the geometry is a fools game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| CH2O wrote: |
| So many Parameters......external delta, internal delta, liners, cuff angle. The tecnica you can change, 12°-14°, the easiest way after is with Spoilers, the best are the velcro ones you get with Lange RS/WC boots, they're a deep wedge, on in the front, one at the back, further down into the boot adds more, higher up less, play with both, then one eiter at the back/front, a day skiing whilst messing around should do it. After you should know the direction to work towards, from here you can add gas pedals, and heel lifters. Only you can figure it out. We, can only eyeball your Dorsiflexion and start you off in the right direction. Trying to get two different boots set up the same is by feel only, trying to work out all the geometry is a fools game. |
Makes sense. Already have a burly spoiler inside that Seb gave me. Those front binding shims that Spyderjon made and Seb fitted with Quiver killers seem to have made the most difference on the other bindings. Sticking lifters in the boots messed too much with the fit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Assume increasing from 12 to 13 degrees increases the forward lean so would have a negative effect? |
Yes I think it would make it worse.
| BobinCH wrote: |
I think you’re into something with the curve (or rocker) on the sole. Let’s hope the Striders don’t have this!
Sounds like I need to order more toe shims for the Shifts!
Glad I went with alpine bindings for the new skis rather than Shifts/Marker Duke PT’s |
AFAIK most touring boots have a rocker so the toe lip is off the floor unlike an alpine boot. When sat on the floor I can get my fingers under the touring boot toe but the alpine boots are flush with the floor. Looking at your first pic this looks to be the case with your boots too (strider flat, G-Zero rockered).
Hadn't thought about this before but this surely means even two different sets of boots (alpine & touring) with the same cuff angles, delta's etc are still going to be different in a pair of shift bindings.
If you shim the shifts up for the touring boots does this stuff the settings for the alpine boots up? (negative Delta?)
Maybe the best thing to do is to install quiver killers on the skis with the shifts but only use the shims with the touring boots. Might even be worth playing around with a few different shims of different thicknesses to see what works best. (e.g. use a shim thickness as recommended by Jon and try one 50% thicker)
If I remember correctly you have a limited dorsion flex in one leg which is possibly why you prefer a more upright boot. Unless I'm havng a brainfart - thicker shims should reduce the overall delta angle and make the cuff more upright (in relation to the ski) at the same time.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sun 22-11-20 23:12; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@DB, Alas the Striders have a (Michelin!) grip walk sole too so will probably have a similar issue. They definitely look/feel more upright though so fingers crossed... Don’t use Alpine boots on the Shifts so no problem there. You’re right about the dorsiflexion problem on the right ankle though, which is getting worse as I keep damaging it... I really have to focus on Flexing the ankle when turning to the left to avoid the right ski going straight on, and it’s worse in touring boots on tech bindings, compared to Speedmachines on Griffon’s. Just a shame Spyderjon doesn’t have a verbier shop!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@BobinCH,
Ah yeah I see what you mean.
Maybe it's not the absolute values of the complete setup Delta but what we as the skier get used to. If you are planing to use the Striders in your alpine bindings maybe then you will get used to a higher Delta so when you switch to the G-Zeros it won't be so much of an issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
General point is that it is virtually impossible to get this right by yourself. As you will end up throwing money at the problem eventually by seeing a fitter it's better to do that straight away. Second, CH20 is right, imv, that measuring angles and trying to correct off of that is fruitless - but it is not a bad idea to do some measuring just so you know what the differences are. I had two ski/binding combinations that I thought had identical delta until I stuck a spirit level in the boot and realised that they weren't.
| Quote: |
You’re right about the dorsiflexion problem on the right ankle though, which is getting worse as I keep damaging it... I really have to focus on Flexing the ankle when turning to the left to avoid the right ski going straight on, and it’s worse in touring boots on tech bindings, compared to Speedmachines on Griffon’s. Just a shame Spyderjon doesn’t have a verbier shop!
|
I have limited dorisflexion in both ankles that is complicated by overly large calves. The calves push me too far forward, using up all the range of motion in my ankle joint, which makes it hard for me to pressure the cuff. Solution for me was a much more upright boot, small heel lifts and then shimming binding delta. The order here was important - Andi/Colin made sure I could flex the boot properly through a combination of an upright shell and heel lifts and then looked at binding delta. Sticking in heel lifts to open up the ankle joint seems to affect the way I balance in the boots, hence the need to do delta last.
I would not have figured this out by myself through taking measurements and fiddling with the kit - although (these days) I have much less slope time than you and need to sort gear problems before going skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@gorilla,
Valid Points. Ski touring kit tends to be made for slimmer (lean and mean) people so anyone with meaty calves could well be getting pushed forward. I have the opposite problem (legs came out of a birds nest) and find that touring boots fit my skinny legs better than "normal" alpine boots.
As the overall delta of the boot in the binding affects the cuff angle relative to the snow I'd have thought that would need to be sorted first. i.e. spirit level & binding shims to sort out level of feet in the boots then boot work to sort out any residual cuff and boot flexing problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
as others have said touring type boots lower for mobility, weight saving and prevent interference of the calf muscle
so many variables as CH20 said, you need to consider level length as another factor to chuck into the mix (if you are tall then short boots feel just wrong) calf muscle circumference will also play a role in where you are in the boot, the shorter boot will fall lower (at a smaller part of) your calf muscle so you will have to travel further to engage the front of the boot
100% with Steve on this one is a personal thing for the most part and only you will know when it feels right for you, try playing with the spoiler front and back to find the position that works for you
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
@gorilla, @DB, agreed, this was exactly what the combination of Seb and Spyderjon did for the Zero-G’s and Xenics ie larger front spoiler, heel lift and binding shim. Pretty sure the binding shim made the biggest difference of the three, which is why I’m still feeling it on the Shifts which aren’t shimmed. Haven’t tried the Nordicas on snow yet...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@BobinCH, in that case, no harm in shimming the Shifts to the same level as the Xenics and seeing how that feels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Must admit back in the early 2000's when I was always in the backseat esp during my early forays into the offpiste. I looked at binding delta, the flexibility of fritschi freeride bindings, binding heights, boot cuff angles, boot buckling techniques and the La Nina effect all as possible reasons for me not skiing like Glan Plake and then it dawned on me.
It had been looking me in the face all this time - I was just a cr@p skier.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@BobinCH, I've suffered from similar issues (or, more precisely, I think I'm as sensitive to the same ones). Large binding deltas feel awkward and uncomfortable: I used to ski with 10mm of shims under the toes of old dynafits. I prioritise a relatively neutral/low delta over weight or features on (touring) bindings. CEM / Andi fitted me up on my most recent boots with heel lifts and these had the effect of adjusting my posture into a more upright position. The boots (XT 130) is fairly tall and upright anyhow and as a tall gangly twiglet they feel bang on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Coming back to this one. Tried the Nordica Striders in the Shifts and they work much better than the Zero-G’s. Had to adjust toe pressure to alpine setting to hold them down. This has the effect of raising the toe several mm’s so assume gets rid of the delta. By comparison Zero-G’s are in the touring (lowest) position. I guess it’s due to their different toe shapes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Coming back to this one. Tried the Nordica Striders in the Shifts and they work much better than the Zero-G’s. Had to adjust toe pressure to alpine setting to hold them down. This has the effect of raising the toe several mm’s so assume gets rid of the delta. By comparison Zero-G’s are in the touring (lowest) position. I guess it’s due to their different toe shapes? |
It's due to the profile of the sole and where on the sole the AFD contacts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Coming back to this one. Tried the Nordica Striders in the Shifts and they work much better than the Zero-G’s. Had to adjust toe pressure to alpine setting to hold them down. This has the effect of raising the toe several mm’s so assume gets rid of the delta. By comparison Zero-G’s are in the touring (lowest) position. I guess it’s due to their different toe shapes? |
Interesting that the toe piece adjustment of a few mm makes so much difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| DB wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Coming back to this one. Tried the Nordica Striders in the Shifts and they work much better than the Zero-G’s. Had to adjust toe pressure to alpine setting to hold them down. This has the effect of raising the toe several mm’s so assume gets rid of the delta. By comparison Zero-G’s are in the touring (lowest) position. I guess it’s due to their different toe shapes? |
Interesting that the toe piece adjustment of a few mm makes so much difference. |
It’s a completely different boot and looks more upright anyway to me (and is 500g burlier) but yes it seems those few mm of binding delta definitely make a difference. I went with Griffons on my new Freeride skis to avoid the « delta » feel of Shifts or Marker Duke PT’s which is what I really wanted...
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
So G-Zeros with shimmed Xenics for longer tours & Striders with Shifts for shorter/freeride tours?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| DB wrote: |
| So G-Zeros with shimmed Xenics for longer tours & Striders with Shifts for shorter/freeride tours? |
That’s the plan
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
...or bin the xenics and get Salomon MTN, which are pretty flat according to my overly-sensitive biomechanics 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Used the Zero-G’s with Shifts yesterday and left the fore adjustment in Alpine mode (high). Toe piece was still able to get into binding and definitely felt more balanced skiing. Best experience on Zero-G’s yet
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Oddly enough, although I have only been out on the BDs with Dynafit Speeds - I have felt totally comfortable this year, so far 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Should be interesting today on old 3D snow with no viz 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Used the Zero-G’s with Shifts yesterday and left the fore adjustment in Alpine mode (high). Toe piece was still able to get into binding and definitely felt more balanced skiing...... |
 highly likely that the boot sole will be compressed and you'll jam the AFD and block out the lateral release. Just because the boot fits in it doesn't mean it's safe. For proper functioning the Shift AFD must only just be 'kissing' the boot sole and no more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
