 Poster: A snowHead
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Sorry, still think that initiating the turn by angulating the inner knee joint is a very bad idea and should definitely not be "drilled" in.. There are many other more effective drills/moves/intents/thoughts that actually work and aren't dangerous. |
IMV. The initiation also includes moving forward and across the skis - so the knee joint is not exposed in the same way, as if that was the only movement at initiation.
Surely, if you don't start changing edges at start of the turn by dumping the hip in, then the move initially comes from rolling the feet/ankles/knees into the turn and pressing forward and across.....so either there is a blend of ankle/knee/hip in the turn, or there isn't (in which case the hip dumps in). If there is a blend, then the feet will tilt and the knee will follow - but because you are also moving forward and across and the hips follow (as you balance against the turning ski and the pull of gravity) - there isn't a strain on the knees.
Apologies if I'm being a bit thick here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
Surely, if you don't start changing edges at start of the turn by dumping the hip in, then the move initially comes from rolling the feet/ankles/knees into the turn and pressing forward and across.....so either there is a blend of ankle/knee/hip in the turn, or there isn't (in which case the hip dumps in). If there is a blend, then the feet will tilt and the knee will follow - but because you are also moving forward and across and the hips follow (as you balance against the turning ski and the pull of gravity) - there isn't a strain on the knees
|
In long turns, I tend to think of it as releasing the tension, "softening" the downhill leg which allows my centre of gravity to fall down the hill and across the skis. The foot certainly goes from an edged position to a flat position but you don't actually have to drive that so much as allow it to happen. I do think that as I transition on to the old inside / new outside ski, there is a a split second when the focus is tipping the new outside foot, kind of feeling for the edge, but mostly the ankle, knee and hip are moving fairly smoothly together
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| jedster wrote: |
In long turns, I tend to think of it as releasing the tension, "softening" the downhill leg which allows my centre of gravity to fall down the hill and across the skis. The foot certainly goes from an edged position to a flat position but you don't actually have to drive that so much as allow it to happen. I do think that as I transition on to the old inside / new outside ski, there is a a split second when the focus is tipping the new outside foot, kind of feeling for the edge, but mostly the ankle, knee and hip are moving fairly smoothly together |
Yes, I think I agree with that.
I too think of "softening" the d/hill leg and "toppling" into the new turn, as the forces are released. As you go faster - Along with the toppling - The blend of rolling the feet/ankles/knees/hips into the new turn happens very fast and hopefully seamlessly - but the order they happen is still there - just much faster (so the blend needs to be instinctual, as a result of instruction and practice - lots of practice).
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 14-01-21 18:11; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Back on target one "Insight" video I like by the worlds best female skier |
Much wisdom there.
The understanding is really important. My gripe with random drills off the internet is that they may or may not be helping you and your skiing. Understanding how they fit on (or not) to skiing as a whole will make a world of difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| My gripe with random drills off the internet is that they may or may not be helping you and your skiing. Understanding how they fit on (or not) to skiing as a whole will make a world of difference. |
Exactly right. That can't be said often enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
+1^^
“it's high time we had some more random drills off the internet“
Yes please. Love the ‘airplane’.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I like a lot of the things that he says, once he gets past the drills! Relaxing in the bumps, varying your technique and looking ahead/dealing with what you find is spot on. GS turns in lumpy crud - tick! Skiing powder on piste skis - tick! Going beyond your comfort zone and keeping your technique solid is where I see my progression - there is a lot of satisfaction to be had there. Just being dialled in across the whole mountain and keeping your focus will progress your skiing. Embracing slush like powder for the win!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@Fat George, I came across that Andi Bennett video a while ago and liked it. I'm glad you put it up.
The Instructors, whose videos that I have rated, would include: Darren Turner, Deb Armstrong, Phil Smith, Warren Smith, Mark Jones, Sean Langmuir, Amanda Pirie, Josh Foster, Jonathan Ballou, Tom Gellie....and yes, Harald Harb (in certain areas).
Each one imv brings something to the party. The best instruction bar none that I have personally received, was by BASI instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Old Fartbag ooh lovely a video list . . bang on your own topic.
Here was I getting short of things to watch . . I didn't recognize three of those names; most obliged: now there's plenty of stuff on the agenda!
Hope we get some new contributors' favourites, who will also bring something to the party.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Fat George wrote: |
@Old Fartbag ooh lovely a video list . . bang on your own topic.
Here was I getting short of things to watch . . I didn't recognize three of those names; most obliged: now there's plenty of stuff on the agenda!
Hope we get some new contributors' favourites, who will also bring something to the party. |
Some on that list (Phil Smith/Sean Langmuir/Mark Jones/Amanda Pirie) were Videos made with Peter Hart/SCGB, on the SCGB Instruction section - unfortunately they have been taken down. I don't know if they are available elsewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Fat George wrote: |
| Re Phil Smith: are those PH/SCGB ones not among his ‘Snoworks’ videos then? |
I don't think Phil has done any videos for BASI, certainly not in the series presented by Peter Hart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Fat George wrote: |
| Re Phil Smith: are those PH/SCGB ones not among his ‘Snoworks’ videos then? |
I don't think Phil has done any videos for BASI, certainly not in the series presented by Peter Hart. |
Yup, I think that's right, now that I think about it.....but there were certainly video clips of his tips on the SCGB Instruction section....but they disappeared when Darren Turner's excellent input was put up instead - so quite a while now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Fat George wrote: |
@Old Fartbag
Re Phil Smith: are those PH/SCGB ones not among his ‘Snoworks’ videos then?
Those are the ones I’ve already seen, and could have added here if I’d thought about it.
Another thread mentions some of those other names.
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=150509 |
I haven't seen any Phil Smith videos outside of those that were on the SCGB website.
You could also check out the Videos made by Guy Heatherington for Alltracks Academy and there's also BASS Network videos.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
^+1.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@Old Fartbag, much better.. Do you see Paul angulating his inner knee at all ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, much better.. Do you see Paul angulating his inner knee at all ? |
No I don't.
Over the course of this thread, I have posted a wide variety of different approaches. When I watch Harb ski, I don't see an exaggerated angling at his inner knee, so I see it - in the context of his teaching system - as part of the journey to ski the way he does.
I can quite understand the view that it not the best way to get there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, .... Do you see Paul angulating his inner knee at all ? |
I think I see something that PL doesn't talk about, slight but significant, that increases the effectiveness and achieves good results, provided you've got good balance and is easier with traditional piste skis on IMO.
My analysis:
On lifting of the ski: when the skier is starting the turn, he is vertical and balanced moving across the slope on the new outside ski, so the skier's C of G is more or less directly over the centre of this outside ski.
Because that ski is also sliding along its length across the slope, the resistance of that ski acts against the direction of travel through a spot either exactly, or very close to, a spot on the ski base vertically below the skier's C of G.
No couple is produced so, if that was all that was happening, the skier would go straight on and there would not be any important turning effect.
Lifting the new inside ski off the snow except for its tip creates an additional effect, which does create the turning effect.
The resistance of the inside ski tip has a resistance against the snow which acts in the same direction, i.e. against the direction of travel and it inevitably has to act through a point offset from that point that is below the the skiers C of G on the other ski.
This creates a moment, and consequently there is a some turning effect, and a natural reaction of the skier, by long-accustomed automatic balancing reflexes, causing him to angulate and drop the C of G slightly inside the turn.
Once the turn is started that way, an edge angle develops and increases quite naturally and effortlessly, and the skier simply goes with it.
What PL also does, is lift the tail and pull the heel in so it's touching the inside of the other leg, allowing the ski tails to cross, whilst keeping the new inside ski tip on the snow.
This means the skis diverge, as can be seen in the stills.
The knees are inevitably in practice blocked further apart than the tails.
The tip width and the need to keep the skis from colliding means the tips are even further apart.
That in turn  means that the new inside ski tends to become slightly angulated to the inside of the intended turn WRT the other ski, which keeps more flat to the snow.
This divergence and slight tipping create effects at the inside ski tip which exaggerate the above turning effect.
The tip, having been slightly edged to the inside of the new turn, puts the resistance force further away from the C of G so the turning effort is increased.
The concentration of pressure into a smaller area of the ski tip increases the drag resistance, which also helps.
I think I saw all that in the video and the stills are an attempt to illustrate that.
Some turning effect can also be obtained by instead dragging the tail of the new inside ski, but it's not normally recommended.
Just for discussion really.
Not trying to start a fight here.
Also the first time I ended up with twin tips - the only ones left in the hire shop in my length - I was initially mystified by the trouble I was having.
The tail rocker was preventing me lifting the tail over the other one - which I had probably been doing unconsciously - without getting it a lot higher off the snow than I was used to . . . !
Once I had figured that out, it was OK.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
^Liked the following. Nice one.
0) Sharp Edges. Wider, Lower stance. Work your way up from easier conditions.
1) On the new edge early. Don't extend in transition. Straighten the new outside leg. Smoothly.
2) Smooth build-up of force. Be patient. Roll over. Don't rotate the leg.
3) Separate. Upper body does not 'follow the skis'. Pinch the outside hip.
4) 'More flow less force'.
Noted that this is: 'Pro Tips'.
A lot of people on here would enjoy his kind of approach, or already do.
But that's not ice he's skiing on, as I understand it? No doubt he can ski on that; he's in the national demo team. It would be nice to see him doing it on harder stuff tho'.
The video is, I think, on nothing like so tricky a slope as those glassy blacks dropping into Arabba that some of us did in the twilight at the BB last Feb?
Personally I wouldn't have been - and wasn't - prepared to risk using, there and then, the kind of dynamicism, speed and aggression that he's demo'ing with here. I didn't see anyone carving down those blacks at those speeds in those conditions, although somebody with fantastic technique, rock-hard physique, thighs and balls of steel, and the fitness and athleticism to do it accurately and safely after a full day would surely have come along if only I'd waited long enough. But that's not me, never can be; it was getting dark, and it was b'ing cold. Not how I got down. Stuff in video is OK for me on the easier stuff with hard snow bits in it though. There's a lot to be said for learning survival-skiing methods as well!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@Fat George, I think you're right about that video. It popped up on my Youtube timeline a couple of weeks ago and my reaction was, 'that's great for a skier with your skills who is comfortable to ski very quickly on hard snow, using edging as the dominant way of steering the skis'. For most people who will want to ski a bit slower, perhaps on steeper slopes, you're going to need to maintain a lower speed, and therefore use a different blend of steering elements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@rob@rar;
Cheers!
Yeah; after I'd posted the above, I thought, someone's bound to ask: Well? How did you get down?
Mostly much more slowly, using shorter, completed, and over-completed turns, with speed never building up to my 'red light' level, that were a lot more like . . .
Braquage!
(à la Joubert of course, not er, like yer Smith . . . )
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=154597#4716827
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is just how skiing works! The fact that it transfers to harder/icier pistes is a bonus but mainly because it is correct technique.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
We teach a lot of kids to be able to ski on ice, it isn't just demo team members who can do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Fat George wrote: |
@rob@rar;
Cheers!
Yeah; after I'd posted the above, I thought, someone's bound to ask: Well? How did you get down?
Mostly much more slowly, using shorter, completed, and over-completed turns, with speed never building up to my 'red light' level, that were a lot more like . . .
Braquage!
(à la Joubert of course, not er, like yer Smith . . . )
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=154597#4716827 |
Yes, a good option. I ski on hard snow myself I'll either try to ski it like the chap in that video, which all seemed very sensible although I'd want to ensure that I was really well balanced on my outside ski to make use of whatever grip I could find. But if it's steeper or really bulletproof and I need to be slower I'd blend in much more rotation in to my turns, as you say, braquage, and keep the speed down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
Yes, a good option. I ski on hard snow myself I'll either try to ski it like the chap in that video, which all seemed very sensible although I'd want to ensure that I was really well balanced on my outside ski to make use of whatever grip I could find. But if it's steeper or really bulletproof and I need to be slower I'd blend in much more rotation in to my turns, as you say, braquage, and keep the speed down. |
I posted it as a "This is what to aim for" video....and to provide discussion.
What you said above is exactly right, as far as I'm concerned.
At my skill level, when it's very icy, I take a 2 pronged approach:
- Survey the slope and see where loose snow has accumulated, from skiers scrapping it off the surface.
- Ski like I'm on egg shells, smoothly, with no aggressive or sudden movements - using rotation to turn the skis, (ideally) only trying to slow down where there is a little loose snow (which there usually is). I also try to use the full length of the ski, as light tails can overtake the tips. 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 21-01-21 18:08; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Double Post
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @Fat George, I think you're right about that video. It popped up on my Youtube timeline a couple of weeks ago and my reaction was, 'that's great for a skier with your skills who is comfortable to ski very quickly on hard snow, using edging as the dominant way of steering the skis'. For most people who will want to ski a bit slower, perhaps on steeper slopes, you're going to need to maintain a lower speed, and therefore use a different blend of steering elements. |
Totally.
I've managed to ski in the way he describes (and the tips are the right ones IMO) on rock hard BLUE runs but I wouldn't even try it on a rock hard black run! Oh and on fairly skinny skis by modern standards - not 90-100mm "all mountain" skis. I found it is about being VERY smooth and progressive with pressure changes and just kissing the new edges down after a cross-under transition. I couldn't just jab the edges in and expect to get away with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| jedster wrote: |
| I've managed to ski in the way he describes (and the tips are the right ones IMO) on rock hard BLUE runs but I wouldn't even try it on a rock hard black run! I couldn't just jab the edges in and expect to get away with it. |
What is the difference between blue runs and black ones ? My slalom skis work fine on black runs with injected snow. The bottom of Descente in Megeve is often injected.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| rjs wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
| I've managed to ski in the way he describes (and the tips are the right ones IMO) on rock hard BLUE runs but I wouldn't even try it on a rock hard black run! I couldn't just jab the edges in and expect to get away with it. |
What is the difference between blue runs and black ones ? My slalom skis work fine on black runs with injected snow. The bottom of Descente in Megeve is often injected. |
I just used it a proxy for steepness - I'm not comfortable trying to carve tight turns on steep ice because of the consequences of screwing up.
That said I'm pretty comfortable having a crack at anything around Megeve - nothing is that steep!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| jedster wrote: |
I just used it a proxy for steepness - I'm not comfortable trying to carve tight turns on steep ice because of the consequences of screwing up.
|
Tell me about it.
I was skiing La Face in Val D'Isere. If you know the run, it was at the point where you have skied down "The Road" and have to drop over the edge - which is pretty steep and can get very icy. Just prior to setting off, a handful of local teenage Racers set off above me, making it look quite doable. Thinking it not too icy, I launched over the edge full of over inflated bravado. It was icy, my edges weren't sharp enough - and my skis slid out from under me. I thought I wasn't going to get stopped until Val village!
After finally coming to a halt, unhurt, my Skis and my pride were handed to me by a glamorous young lady, all dressed in black - who kindly picked them up on her way down.
I had stupidly forgot a previous lesson, where I was told to start skiing every slope, as if it's steeper than you think it is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@jedster, The final pitch of Descente is quite steep, it has been a World Cup piste, I just picked it as it is one you could easily get to. The stuff in the video seems fine to me, the progression needed to get someone confident that they can do that in all conditions is likely to be different for each person.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
^^+1.
I fell at the same spot too, having succeeded many many times both before and since.
For once, artificial snowmaking was in progress . . . fill in the blanks.
There were plenty of people going down, lots had fallen/were falling, same as me.
After the end of my slide, which finished right at the bottom, I got a good talking to by an old Scottish guy in tatty gear, who got very angry.
A very good lesson he gave me.
Part of it was he said I was lucky not to slide into and crock another skier, never mind injuring myself that way.
A lesson in judging risks not just to yourself, but the risk and consequences for others too if you screw up.
Factors that may be missing in some of the more race-oriented adrenalin-types one sees.
So ^^^+1 on the consequences of screwing up.
Can't leave it alone.
Kids get better quick from injuries, and I don't.
I, like many others, don't bounce like a kid either.
Nor do I want to find I've been hit by one, or by an adult who was going at Mach speed either, racer or not.
Obviously a skier racing, or practicing for that, or for a qualification may need to carve and race down, but even in the latter circumstances, surely that's best kept within limits on slopes where others are skiing?
And recreationally, it can be great fun, but also downright irresponsible.
We don't all want to race.
Most of us aren't able to ski with race technique when we're out there.
Neither do all of us want to ski with race technique anyway.
There are all kinds of skiers and skiing, and not just one.
It isn't always a good idea to ski like a racer even if you are one, or a race coach.
Nor to have just have one idea that you think is appropriate.
Nor only one option.
In practice what's appropriate, depends.
Options are good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Maybe people would be more in control on steep icy slopes if they worked on what is in the video, then they wouldn't run the risk of sliding into somebody else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rjs wrote: |
| Maybe people would be more in control on steep icy slopes if they worked on what is in the video, then they wouldn't run the risk of sliding into somebody else. |
Absolutely right - but sometimes, it's possible to get caught out with a section of ice you weren't expecting. It even happens to the best.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
