@Pejoli, The "intent" of tilting the foot will activate the tendons connected to the lower leg, this can rotate the tib+fib slightly even in a tight skiboot cuff relative to the knee joint. I have suggested experimenting with this kind of thing to my trainees to find out how their bones stack together, this can vary between people, there can be differences between each leg for one person.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
To bring it closer to home here is a little video showing an instructor training at Hemel and we worked on the same thing... Useful to compare and contrast in differing environments...
Blimey that seems like a long time ago. Looking forward to picking up where we left off.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DB wrote:
A part of me is thinking that discussing calculus is not going to help me do my 8 times table.
Yeah - it drives my wife nuts, and I always notice the instructor wants to sit next to her on the lift after the first day ..
@Old Fartbag, thanks for the vid. I actually always quite like Harb's little toe visualisation technique (when I remember to try it) - my first lessons on straight skis way back when were a little too formative, and to this day almost all my weight is on the outside ski, and my inside leg is a bit of a passenger. I find the little toe thing really useful to initiate and get my inside ski over and keeping the shins more parallel. Only ever gets deployed in straightforward terrain when I've got to think about it though.
@rjs, thanks, that's really interesting. Is it something that you can see when trainees are not doing it / it's not effective for them, or does it just show up in their general performance?
Regarding ankle movements in isolation, although your boot doesn't follow the same movements, any movements you put through your ankle are transmitted through you boot directly to the ski (I think partly because the boot is "stiff" - that pressure goes somewhere - but you're the engineer!) as well as influencing the knee and hip joint positions
My head translates ankle movements into ski movements as so:
Ankle dorsiflexion / plantar flexion = fore / aft pressure -> e.g. dolphin
turns
Ankle lateral rotation = steering / pivoting (afaik these seem to be used interchangable depending on skischool system) -> e.g. pivot slips
Ankle inversion / eversion = edging -> e.g. rollerblade turns
Boot fit is massively important, since loose / poorly fitted boots with absorb this pressure and it won't be transmitted to the ski and you won't feel anything.
A lot of this is also dependent on the other fundamentals being down. For example if you ski back seat, you'll rarely get effective fore pressure or steering, but the fix may not be leaning forward but rather engaging your core and keeping your centre of mass centered (shoulders over mid foot).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Deb has a go at the perennial 'arms forward (but bum back)' issue...
@garricw, I am going to give my view as a "layman" that has no qualifications whatsoever.
Firstly, I think the title of the Video is misleading. He is not so much "busting myths", as showing there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The Video makes a good talking point and goes to my view that in skiing - there is no ""right" way......but for ordinary mortals, there are certain things that you need to grasp, before deciding to break the "rules". Hirscher is so good, he can, as he knows exactly what he is doing.
1. Many of the Videos above talk about "Flex to transition" and the reasons for it - so this is perfectly normal in more expert skiing.
2. As a lesser mortal, one should get the tips to bite - but I suspect what Hirscher is doing here (and I could be wrong) is getting more speed by letting his weight come back over the skis at the end of the turn - which literally pings him in the air. I've seen this used in races where the racer wants to get a faster run time (though they try not to get airborne) - but it's risky.
3. It takes a great deal of skill to incline that amount, putting considerable weight on the inside ski. It may be something to mess about with, if a very competent skier - but not generally recommended outside of a drill (White Pass turn).
4. Arms getting behind is not a good habit for ordinary skiers to get into. GS racers can swing the arm that matches the turning ski, round with that ski to get more drive and momentum (I think)....but swinging the arms about in Short Turns will do more harm than good in most skiers.
5. Racers often touch the snow as another point of contact. If you can generate the type of angles to allow you to do it, I don't know what harm it would do - provided you don't catch in the snow or lose form.
IMV When you have got to a level that allows you to mess about with this - that is one thing. When starting out on your skiing journey, listen to your Instructor, as they will be giving advice based on your level.
I agree with you on pretty much all of those observations but I think the guy narrating the video would do. His only real point is to say that the "rules" are actually just rules of thumb rather than laws and that you can break if you want to.
On your second point, I'd put it slightly differently - if you are making a cross under turn with high edge angulation you will have a lot of rebound to deal with. You CAN carefully absorb that so your skis stay very close to the snow but the will still have very little pressure on them at transition. Alternatively you can underabsorb the rebound and CHOOSE to let that rebound ping you in the air because a) that helps you or b) it is just fun (think that is MH's intent here!). It can help you because it might allow you to steer the skis IN THE AIR so you start the new carve further across the fall line. Now you could steer them on the ground unweighted but it might be that there are ruts or crud that make it more pragmatic to do that airborne. If I'm feeling good and trying to ski that kind of turn on a steep run then I will use the rebound to get a little steering done then try to gently put my skis down on the new edges so that there is no skidding but I have got a bit more speed control from the bigger angle to the fall line.
On 4 - in theory you can find your balance with all sorts of different body shapes e.g. correct for your hands being behind you with your chest pushed forwards. For us mortals though it is EASIER to achieve that balance with our hands closer to text book positions. When you see racers land big airs at high edge angles on the wrong ski you realise how much better their balance is than ours!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@garricw, I am going to give my view as a "layman" that has no qualifications whatsoever.
Firstly, I think the title of the Video is misleading. He is not so much "busting myths", as showing there is more than one way to skin a cat.
The Video makes a good talking point and goes to my view that in skiing - there is no ""right" way......but for ordinary mortals, there are certain things that you need to grasp, before deciding to break the "rules". Hirscher is so good, he can, as he knows exactly what he is doing.
1. Many of the Videos above talk about "Flex to transition" and the reasons for it - so this is perfectly normal in more expert skiing.
2. As a lesser mortal, one should get the tips to bite - but I suspect what Hirscher is doing here (and I could be wrong) is getting more speed by letting his weight come back over the skis at the end of the turn - which literally pings him in the air. I've seen this used in races where the racer wants to get a faster run time (though they try not to get airborne) - but it's risky.
3. It takes a great deal of skill to incline that amount, putting considerable weight on the inside ski. It may be something to mess about with, if a very competent skier - but not generally recommended outside of a drill (White Pass turn).
4. Arms getting behind is not a good habit for ordinary skiers to get into. GS racers can swing the arm that matches the turning ski, round with that ski to get more drive and momentum (I think)....but swinging the arms about in Short Turns will do more harm than good in most skiers.
5. Racers often touch the snow as another point of contact. If you can generate the type of angles to allow you to do it, I don't know what harm it would do - provided you don't catch in the snow or lose form.
IMV When you have got to a level that allows you to mess about with this - that is one thing. When starting out on your skiing journey, listen to your Instructor, as they will be giving advice based on your level.
I agree with you on pretty much all of those observations but I think the guy narrating the video would do. His only real point is to say that the "rules" are actually just rules of thumb rather than laws and that you can break if you want to.
On your second point, I'd put it slightly differently - if you are making a cross under turn with high edge angulation you will have a lot of rebound to deal with. You CAN carefully absorb that so your skis stay very close to the snow but the will still have very little pressure on them at transition. Alternatively you can underabsorb the rebound and CHOOSE to let that rebound ping you in the air because a) that helps you or b) it is just fun (think that is MH's intent here!). It can help you because it might allow you to steer the skis IN THE AIR so you start the new carve further across the fall line. Now you could steer them on the ground unweighted but it might be that there are ruts or crud that make it more pragmatic to do that airborne. If I'm feeling good and trying to ski that kind of turn on a steep run then I will use the rebound to get a little steering done then try to gently put my skis down on the new edges so that there is no skidding but I have got a bit more speed control from the bigger angle to the fall line.
On 4 - in theory you can find your balance with all sorts of different body shapes e.g. correct for your hands being behind you with your chest pushed forwards. For us mortals though it is EASIER to achieve that balance with our hands closer to text book positions. When you see racers land big airs at high edge angles on the wrong ski you realise how much better their balance is than ours!
Thank you both for your insight, very helpful to this beginner when looking at all these world class skiers
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garricw wrote:
......when looking at all these world class skiers
.....Analysed by two world class Bluffers!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Ha! my thought entirely!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
garricw wrote:
On 4 - in theory you can find your balance with all sorts of different body shapes e.g. correct for your hands being behind you with your chest pushed forwards. For us mortals though it is EASIER to achieve that balance with our hands closer to text book positions.
Another way of looking at it is to be able to achieve balance AND still have some range of movement in your limbs to still be able to effectively steer the ski's (and maintain\regain balance).
Ed Drake who does the Podcast is an all round great skier, has a fine eye for detail and is a fab coach himself. He got me going a bit quicker through gates and when I was a bit fitter was able to squeeze into one of his old GB team cat suits . Didn't get me a win at a Eurotest though !...
I will start with this 45 Minute discussion between two top instructors....which is not Instruction per se, but high level concepts and how they go about achieving and analysing them.
They cover a lot of the stuff Rob talks about, namely Dynamic Balance, Fore/Aft Balance through the turn, the importance (and difficulty of teaching) of the start of the turn and even "the Invisible Bump" at edge change. They give examples to illustrate the concepts being talked about - and the need to give the "Why", as well as the "What" and the "How".
If anyone has anything similar, feel free to post.
17 cases were suspected to have the B117 mutation of the virus, 191 people were tested in the village but B117 was not found.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DB wrote:
[Suspect this is the "ski instructor academy" at the centre of the infections in Tirol.
Thanks, I was wondering who it might have been, as IASI and BASI courses that might have taken place in Austria that early in the season were cancelled.
[Suspect this is the "ski instructor academy" at the centre of the infections in Tirol.
Thanks, I was wondering who it might have been, as IASI and BASI courses that might have taken place in Austria that early in the season were cancelled.
To be honest I‘m not sure they have done anything wrong but that won‘t stop the press blowing it up into something that it isn‘t to get more attention.
It might just be that the 17 people are the instructors who like me are Brits living in Austria. If I were to contract COVID it doesn’t mean it will be the B117 type just because I‘m a Brit.
If trainee ski instructors have been doing courses with them then that‘s a bit naughty and pretty stupid.
It will all come out in the wash.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Old Fartbag wrote:
@Pejoli, I think rjs has explained it well, above.
Not everyone's favourite instructor - but here is Harb explaining what I'm talking about, 30 secs into this clip.
I don't want to be too negative on this thread as it is a good idea to review videos on "how skiing works" as well as "how to ski" but take exception to teaching angulating the inner knee to achieve anything. Watch this video again and ask yourself why on earth this would actually work.. There was another video floating around demoing the same "move" and it is just all wrong... as we can't ski at the moment try it at home and see for yourself if what Harb is advocating actually does anything. Being "light" on your inner ski can do some good but putting your knee joint of only one leg in a highly angulated position is a recipe for an MCL tear. When he actually skis down the hill do you see his inside knee doing that crazy angulation move? I don't, he just lightens the inside leg.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@skimottaret, I see elements of what he teaches as being helpful eg Early weight transfer/flex to transition/tip pressure at start of turn/importance of finishing turns. I personally find it helpful to think of leading the turn with the knee of the unweighted leg, as it helps prevent an A Frame.
Once the edge angle has been generated by knee to balance against - then the hips drop inside (Long Turns). Harb's instruction also covers "Long Leg/Short Leg" and watching him ski, there is a lot of hip angle. I think he is exaggerating the move to demonstrate it - but I don't see it like this while he is skiing.
As I am not an Instructor, I am certainly not claiming to be right.
Here he is showing what I'm talking about (no mincing down with exaggerated knee angles with skis close together):
Last edited by After all it is free on Thu 14-01-21 13:16; edited 1 time in total
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Quote:
but take exception to teaching angulating the inner knee to achieve anything.
I actually tried this last season after watching a similar video. It was disconcerting to say the least and only really served to put me off my flow. I find that I can't actually angulate my inside knee unless I'm not in the right position at the start of the turn, which is somewhat counter productive.
Probably better to ignore.
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Klamm Franzer wrote:
Quote:
but take exception to teaching angulating the inner knee to achieve anything.
I actually tried this last season after watching a similar video. It was disconcerting to say the least and only really served to put me off my flow. I find that I can't actually angulate my inside knee unless I'm not in the right position at the start of the turn, which is somewhat counter productive.
Probably better to ignore.
I had a insightful lesson with Simon Mc Combe in Val D'Isere - where he was getting me to think about where/when/how to generate the ski angle - Ankle/Knee/Hip - and how and at what point in the turn they should be used. The timing is subtle and it's difficult to blend them together in the right way - and probably needs an Instructor to step you through it.
I think any new movement screws up one's skiing as it beds in - provided it is the right thing to do (and you are doing it correctly).
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@Old Fartbag, still not seeing any positives from leading a turn by angulating the inner knee. I watched your second Harb video and in frame 4 5 and 6 does he display the inner knee angulation as per the first video? No he doesn't, it is a dumb and dangerous move which doesn't do anything good bio-mechanically. Another school used to promote a similar "Thigh steering" move which doesn't work well either and encourages an "O" Frame (which race coaches hate for good reason) instead of curing an "A" frame. Watch the beginning of this video to see if that move helps one of my trainees.
Long Leg / Short leg is a much better way to think about. Again, try it at home by putting yourself into a skiing position bracing against a wall/desk and ask yourself what happens to your outside ski (that you are mainly balancing against) if all you do is dip your inner knee in. Nothing.... Even as a "trigger" it does nothing, as RJS says the lightness or intent is enough
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 14-01-21 13:48; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Old Fartbag wrote:
I had a insightful lesson with Simon Mc Combe in Val D'Isere - where he was getting me to think about where/when/how to generate the ski angle - Ankle/Knee/Hip - and how and at what point in the turn they should be used. .
Simon by talking about ankle, then knee and hip in that order has it right and that probably felt better for you I am guessing.. in the same vein that dumping your hip as the first move at transition is ineffective, initiating the the turn through knee angulation causes problems... A bit of angulation in all the lower limbs is a good thing (and not something BASI promotes)
Exaggerated Drills to develop Skills are great, but awkward/deliberate "Moves" while free skiing ime don't help..
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret wrote:
Even as a "trigger" it does nothing, as RJS says the lightness or intent is enough
TBF I was talking about the "intent" of tipping the ski from the ankle, just prior to RJS.
I find, that once all the weight is on the U/Hill ski prior to the turn - Provided the rest of the body is doing the right thing - If the Unweighted ski tilts into the new turn, from the angulation of the ankle/knee, fractionally before the weighted ski - the Weighted ski will follow automatically.
If I do it the other way round, the Weighted ski can head towards the Unweighted leg forming a slight A Frame. If the Unweighted leg moves first, there is a very slight O Frame and the skis remain more parallel.
It all happens so fast, that it looks like both edges change at the same time.
I certainly don't ski with exaggerated Knee angulation for the reasons you mention - but I find starting the turn with the ski being tipped from the feet/knee, prior to the hip dropping inside is useful.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Old Fartbag, I think we will have to agree to disagree....
Perhaps stick up some video of yourself, it would be interesting to see if an active "knee angulation first" move is apparent in your skiing, and if so, is it doing good or bad things as per Mikes video I posted above.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Old Fartbag wrote:
TBF I was talking about the "intent" of tipping the ski from the ankle, just prior to RJS.
Is there confusion between mental imagery and actual movement patterns?
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Poster: A snowHead
skimottaret wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
I had a insightful lesson with Simon Mc Combe in Val D'Isere - where he was getting me to think about where/when/how to generate the ski angle - Ankle/Knee/Hip - and how and at what point in the turn they should be used. .
Simon by talking about ankle, then knee and hip in that order has it right and that probably felt better for you I am guessing.. in the same vein that dumping your hip as the first move at transition is ineffective, initiating the the turn through knee angulation causes problems... A bit of angulation in all the lower limbs is a good thing (and not something BASI promotes)
Exaggerated Drills to develop Skills are great, but awkward/deliberate "Moves" while free skiing ime don't help..
Yup, I am approaching this by what made sense and worked for me (though my skiing is far from how it could be).
Skiing from the feet up, and thinking about how to tip the ski and when - helps stop dumping the hip at transition....which leads to a sort of "Park and Ride" - and that gives no versatility to react.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
TBF I was talking about the "intent" of tipping the ski from the ankle, just prior to RJS.
Is there confusion between mental imagery and actual movement patterns?
In a ski boot - you can't really tilt your ankle - so if skiing from the feet up, then it has to be intent.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Old Fartbag wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
TBF I was talking about the "intent" of tipping the ski from the ankle, just prior to RJS.
Is there confusion between mental imagery and actual movement patterns?
In a ski boot - you can't really tilt your ankle - so if skiing from the feet up, then it has to be intent.
I'm a bit confused by the word 'intent'. Isn't that a thought process immediately prior to actually doing something? I can intend do do something with great commitment, but until I actually do that thing the intent is merely wishful thinking. On the other hand, mentally visualising something as a proxy for a specific movement in order to more effectively make that movement makes much more sense to me. So for me 'long leg, short leg' is a good metal image which helps me to make a number of related movements in order to tip the skis on their edges and stay in dynamic balance as the forces ebb and flow around the turn. So is this a question of semantics, or have I missed the point?
@rob@rar, My point was that the "intent" of moving the foot has a real effect at the knee.
That is better explained - and what I'm getting at.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rjs wrote:
@rob@rar, My point was that the "intent" of moving the foot has a real effect at the knee.
OK, thanks.
After all it is free
After all it is free
sorry to have derailed this thread a bit but not all videos are worth watching and I wanted to explain why the Harb drill one does more harm than good..
Back on target one "Insight" video I like by the worlds best female skier
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@skimottaret, You haven't derailed the thread - as this is all technique and instruction related....and interesting.
I'm not sure that I have managed to explain my position that well.
If there is a subtle blend of Ankle/Knee/Hip angulation, that avoids dumping the hip inside - then that is where I'm coming from. If the first move to angulate the skis doesn't come from the hip - then it starts from a tilting of the feet. In turn, this moves the knee and the hips then blend seamlessly into the mix - it shouldn't lead to exaggerated knee angulation.
IMV. Harb's "drill", is exaggerating the initial movement on gentle terrain to highlight the move- but as speed grows and the terrain steepens, it becomes much more subtle and blends with the hip angulation - as highlighted in his subsequent videos I posted.
If you take that exaggerated move in isolation - ie. that is how to ski - I totally agree with you.
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Sorry, still think that initiating the turn by angulating the inner knee joint is a very bad idea and should definitely not be "drilled" in.. There are many other more effective drills/moves/intents/thoughts that actually work and aren't dangerous.
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