OK fair enough & fair point. No I haven't mastered the double pole plant, and I just wish I had! Single seemed easier - coordination involved is less I imagine and I'm not all that athletic.
I was well into the beers, such is lockdown, but I'm keeping quiet until the morrow now!
No problem & cheers.
PS when you do try it, it might be easier and less painful after a few beers.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Fat George wrote:
@DB
OK fair enough & fair point. No I haven't mastered the double pole plant, and I just wish I had! Single seemed easier - coordination involved is less I imagine and I'm not all that athletic.
Double plant is just the beginning...
Single
Double
Norvegian
Double-tap
Early
Late
One pole, two pole plants (passing pole behind you)
One pole, two pole plants (passing pole in front of you)
and combinations of all the above...
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
Fat George wrote:
@DB
OK fair enough & fair point. No I haven't mastered the double pole plant, and I just wish I had! Single seemed easier - coordination involved is less I imagine and I'm not all that athletic.
Double plant is just the beginning...
Single
Double
Norvegian
Double-tap
Early
Late
One pole, two pole plants (passing pole behind you)
One pole, two pole plants (passing pole in front of you)
and combinations of all the above...
When I try to set high edge angles on my Whitedot R108s every now and again I find I get "stuck" on the inside ski. I try to make the transition but when I try to get off the outside ski find ,my weight is transferred to the inside ski heading in the same direction. DOes not normally end with any elegance!
The skis have a 28m radius so I'm working them pretty hard (seeking loads of edge angle) to carve them to a piste friendly turn shape. And they are fairly wide (108mm!).
WHat I've found is that I avoid the problem by opening my stance a bit which seems slightly contradictory to what the article says (and the article made sense to me!). I wonder if the problem is the ski width means that there isn't "room" to avoid my outside knee nudging the inside edge into the snow and only by opening my stance can I avoid the interference between the legs?
I don't have the issue on my narrower skis
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@jedster, where in the turn when you are on the Whitedots do you get stuck on the inside ski, top half or bottom half of the turn? It might be caused by the rate of your lateral movement. When I swap from a more piste-oriented ski to something like those Whitedots I need to be aware of the rate of lateral movement through the transition and the top half of the turn, as it is easy to overdo it and get stuck on the inside ski as I have moved faster than I’m building up the forces on my outside ski.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@jedster, As I understand it, there are 2 ways to "widen" your skis:
1. Horizontally. ie General stance width. Wider gives more stability (especially at high speed and in Long Turns); Narrower allows faster, more reactive turning (especially Shorter Turns) and is better in moguls and possibly powder.
2. Vertically. ie. Shortening the inside leg, by tucking it up under the hip, to get greater edge angle on the d/hill ski...otherwise known as Long Leg/Short Leg.
I don't know if it will be helpful, but I was taught, that to transfer your weight prior to turning, you could either take weight away from the D/hill ski; or you could add it to the U/hill ski (use on faster, smoother pistes).
My inside leg tends to be there for averting disaster if my outside ski loses grip. Comes in handy more often than I'd like.
I think Didier Cuche used to start a new turn by taking a skate/step up the hill, giving him a better angle on the next gate and a trigger movement for weight transfer. I've tried this on long turns and it's quite effective.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Klamm Franzer wrote:
@Old Fartbag, have you got any videos?
My inside leg tends to be there for averting disaster if my outside ski loses grip. Comes in handy more often than I'd like.
I think Didier Cuche used to start a new turn by taking a skate/step up the hill, giving him a better angle on the next gate and a trigger movement for weight transfer. I've tried this on long turns and it's quite effective.
I can remember one instructor telling me my Inside Leg was only there because it was attached to me - as it was doing nothing useful!
You name it and I've tried it...and yes, there's a Step Turn, which is quite old school....and doing a skating like movement onto the U/Hill ski has also made an occasional appearance in my skiing.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 4-02-21 15:21; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
@jedster, where in the turn when you are on the Whitedots do you get stuck on the inside ski, top half or bottom half of the turn? It might be caused by the rate of your lateral movement. When I swap from a more piste-oriented ski to something like those Whitedots I need to be aware of the rate of lateral movement through the transition and the top half of the turn, as it is easy to overdo it and get stuck on the inside ski as I have moved faster than I’m building up the forces on my outside ski.
I'm trying to think about this...
I think it is late in the turn actually. Almost as if I have more of my weight is on the inside ski than I thought and this blocks me from tipping the from the old outside big toe edge onto the little toe edge. But that might be what you are saying that I have moved too far inside too early. It could also be that widening my stance a little prevents me from moving inside so quickly?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Old Fartbag wrote:
Klamm Franzer wrote:
@Old Fartbag, have you got any videos?
My inside leg tends to be there for averting disaster if my outside ski loses grip. Comes in handy more often than I'd like.
I think Didier Cuche used to start a new turn by taking a skate/step up the hill, giving him a better angle on the next gate and a trigger movement for weight transfer. I've tried this on long turns and it's quite effective.
I can remember one instructor telling me my Inside Leg was only there because it was attached to me - as it was doing nothing useful!
You name it and I've tried it...and yes, there a Step Turn, which is quite old school....and doing a skating like movement onto the U/Hill ski has also made an occasional appearance in my skiing.
I sometimes do this is I'm getting closer to edge of the piste than I'd like and don't want to resort to pivoting. You don't even need to step exactly. If you are strongly on your outside ski you can push the heel out on the unweighted ski to form a wedge and then transition onto the new outside ski which cheats you a few degrees. If that makes sense?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jedster wrote:
I'm trying to think about this...
I think it is late in the turn actually. Almost as if I have more of my weight is on the inside ski than I thought and this blocks me from tipping the from the old outside big toe edge onto the little toe edge. But that might be what you are saying that I have moved too far inside too early. It could also be that widening my stance a little prevents me from moving inside so quickly?
Yes, it could be both of those scenarios. I know for me the biggest adjustments I ned to make in moving from narrower piste-performance skis to wider off-piste skis, and vice-versa, is the change in timing I need to make to lateral movement through the transition and the setup phase of the turn. The bigger the difference in the skis the more I have to focus on making that change in timing and 'feel'. If I get it wrong I often end up moving too quickly and getting stuck on my inside ski, or too slowly and it's all a bit ponderous in getting the turn set up.
I sometimes do this is I'm getting closer to edge of the piste than I'd like and don't want to resort to pivoting. You don't even need to step exactly. If you are strongly on your outside ski you can push the heel out on the unweighted ski to form a wedge and then transition onto the new outside ski which cheats you a few degrees. If that makes sense?
A few years ago I listened to talk by Ron LeMaster who was discussing why Ted Ligety was so successful when the FIS changed the regulations for GS skis to a much longer turn radius. He said one of his race tactics was to allow his new outside ski to move laterally very quickly in the setup phase of the turn, which he was able to do because he wasn't standing on it fully. Then when he did stand on it the ski was already at a very high edge angle, compensating for the much longer turn radius the skis had. Other racers were pivoting their skis more in this phase of the turn, losing a bit of time compared to Ligety.
In a completely different context a "situational stem" where you place the new outside ski on edge by stepping it sideways before standing on it is a pretty secure turn when you're in a no fall zone.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
[quote="rob@rar"]
jedster wrote:
If I get it wrong I often end up moving too quickly and getting stuck on my inside ski, or too slowly and it's all a bit ponderous in getting the turn set up.
In a similar way to bigger waist skis I really notice when after a summer of skiing 165SL 13M radius skis and then moving to the mountains on a more GS side cut boards. I always transition too quick and end up on the inside and feel like I'm gonna die
I spent most of my skiing time on something with a waist in the early 60s. Around 2003, I got the Atomic 11:20s, which had a waist of 70 - which back then, was considered a wide Freeride ski....and it took very little adapting to.
Then a few years ago, I bought some Scot The Ski, with a 92 waist.....and they definitely took/take some getting used to - and definitely affect the timing. I can certainly see how going considerably wider than that, would ramp things up again.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I'm feeling less bad about this now!
After all it is free
After all it is free
On the SL thing. I'd never skied on "modern" slalom skis until a couple of seasons ago when I bought a second hand pair of FIS SL. I was really nervous that I was writing cheques my skiing couldn't cash but I found them completely intuitive and I think @skimottaret's point was why - you can just chuck your weight inside and crank them over and off you go!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
More Carving insight from Paul Lorenz, on a very similar theme:
I found this interesting - especially of the footage towards the end, of a NZ and an Austrian Instructor (in the same shot), perfectly in sink doing short turns (10:50) - but using different techniques (Interski in Bulgaria). The Austrian is more "Up and Forward" to release; whereas the NZ Instructor uses "Flex to release".
I always thought it was called up-unweighting and down-unweighting. Back in the day I used to watch ESF instructors doing the follow-me bit with intermediate ski school groups and loads of them seemed to ski completely minimalist down-unweighted turns making use of every tiny bump and compression on the piste. I thought it was deeply unhelpful to their students who were being taught basic up-unweighted parallel
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@jedster, Good point. I think that back in the day, Up Unweighting was more pronounced, as old school skis could only make tight Short Turns using Short Swings.
Modern Piste skis, with a much smaller turn radius, can carve Short Turns - and can link turns with a minimal Up movement (if you don't use Flex to release)....so I think it could be called "Modified Up Unweighting".
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We did a little Zoom call last week on how to "develop your eye" when reviewing video clips. We had sent out a 'before' clip of one of our clients (who randomly happened to join us on the call and it wa cool to get her input) and had everyone chip in with their thoughts, about half way through I then gave my analysis and showed a few things we had worked on to help her improve. Thought it may be useful to help those on this thread when looking at clips to try to hone in on the root cause of issues as opposed to seeing outcomes...
Echoes of Handforth Parish Council at 28:00. Just needed someone to shout "You have no inside ski authority here Kathy Weavers!!"
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
thanks that was interesting
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@skimottaret, Excellent video - and very much what this thread is all about.
When I watched it, I spotted most of the symptoms that were talked about - but would not have put my finger on the root cause...which is why I'm not an Instructor. I certainly didn't spot the "sinking down" movement at the point of the Pole Plant.
When the footage was slowed down and explained - I could clearly see why most of the symptoms were the result of one movement (I did spot the weight going to the heels)......I think I am right in saying that this was using Inside Leg Extension (ILE) to start the turn.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Old Fartbag wrote:
I think I am right in saying that this was using Inside Leg Extension (ILE) to start the turn.
No, there's no extension (in that initial clip), both knees flex, dropping the skier back and to the inside, which becomes apparent later in the turn when the skis start to lose grip. If you don't create a strong platform at the beginning of the turn it's difficult to generate large edge angles later in the turn as you are not building the G forces quickly enough to balance against.
With this skier it wasn't a conscious choice to make that movement, just an acquired movement pattern. With some focus on replacing that 'bad habit' with a good habit her skiing made a big improvement.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
I think I am right in saying that this was using Inside Leg Extension (ILE) to start the turn.
No, there's no extension (in that initial clip), both knees flex, dropping the skier back and to the inside, which becomes apparent later in the turn when the skis start to lose grip. If you don't create a strong platform at the beginning of the turn it's difficult to generate large edge angles later in the turn as you are not building the G forces quickly enough to balance against.
With this skier it wasn't a conscious choice to make that movement, just an acquired movement pattern. With some focus on replacing that 'bad habit' with a good habit her skiing made a big improvement.
If you read my posts again, I talk about the sinking down movement on the initial footage...but I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say.
I'm now talking about the end of the footage, where the Shiffron Drill is demonstrated and that is followed by footage of this learned skill (as a solution to the main problem)......so instead of flexing at transition, there was more of an extension of the U/Hill leg....which gave good snow contact and a long outside leg through the turn....with no evidence of Park and Ride. This solution looks to me like ILE.
@Old Fartbag, ah, apologies, yes, in the video of the drill you could say she’s using ILE. That term is a bit fuzzy and I don’t think it is widely used.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
@Old Fartbag, ah, apologies, yes, in the video of the drill you could say she’s using ILE. That term is a bit fuzzy and I don’t think it is widely used.
No apology needed - as my post was not clear.
...but I have a question: The turn can be initiated by adding weight to the U/Hill ski (as in ILE); or removing it from the D/Hill ski (as in softening the Outside leg and "Toppling" into the turn with Long Leg/Short Leg)......So when should these approaches be best used? Is it terrain related, ability related, turn type related, solution related - or a mixture of all?
...but I have a question: The turn can be initiated by adding weight to the U/Hill ski (as in ILE); or removing it from the D/Hill ski (as in softening the Outside leg and "Toppling" into the turn with Long Leg/Short Leg)......So when should these approaches be best used? Is it terrain related, ability related, turn type related, solution related - or a mixture of all?
In reality I don’t think there is much difference between those two notions. When you soften the inside leg at the end of a turn to topple in to the new turn, it has to be accompanied by a stiffening of the new outside leg. That’s not much different to extending the new outside leg. You might say there’s a bit of a difference in terms of one being a cross-over transition, and the other being a cross-through transition, but that’s a fairly subtle difference for most recreational skiing.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@rob@rar, Thx.
I was taught that adding weight to the U/Hill ski was better for fast (smooth) Piste skiing; and removing weight from the D/Hill ski was better in more variable terrain....but I'm not sure if this is still the case.
....and I suppose that leads onto the debate of "Flex to transition" vs more "Up and forward".
After all it is free
After all it is free
Old Fartbag wrote:
@skimottaret,
When I watched it, I spotted most of the symptoms that were talked about - but would not have put my finger on the root cause...which is why I'm not an Instructor.
Don't worry, there were a half dozen or so instructors on the call and they missed it is well Rob and I do video review with every session we have every run so are a bit more experienced on this stuff. Takes a while to be able to spot the problems, a bit longer to prioritise the problems, a lot lot longer to confidently identify the root cause and quite a few years of experience to correctly prescribe solutions for advanced / expert skiers.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Old Fartbag, I’d wondered the same back on page one of this thread, and the 3 levels of carving video you’d posted there seemed to explain it very well in the context of carving, in terms of the speed of transition being much faster in cross under (between drills 5 and 6)
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Pejoli wrote:
@Old Fartbag, I’d wondered the same back on page one of this thread, and the 3 levels of carving video you’d posted there seemed to explain it very well in the context of carving, in terms of the speed of transition being much faster in cross under (between drills 5 and 6)
I think there is a difference between "Flexing to Transition" (like going over an invisible Mogul) and softening the outside leg to transition (Outside Leg Retraction) - and it's the ILE vs OLR I was questioning......but this is getting really geeky and I may easily be holding the wrong end of the stick.
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Poster: A snowHead
