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Why don't my Scott Punishers go round corners?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hello snowheads. I’ve been reading these forums for years but don’t think I’ve posted before. I’d welcome some advice on what skis to buy. So here’s my history

Height 71” 180cm, weight 12st, 168lbs, 76kg. Been skiing for 9 weeks over 13 years, advanced intermediate, happy and fast on reds; comfortable but slow on blacks and I would avoid a mogully black. Going forward, I want to learn off-piste and want to not be scared of mogully blacks, or anything else.

I started on hire skis (4 weeks), which were fine, then bought some 166cm Salomon Scrambler Hot’s (2 weeks) which were fine, then, to support my off piste ambitions bought some 182cm 2012 Scott Punishers which are awful. They just don’t turn. Whereas every other ski I’ve used would be able to get down a track 3m wide, the Punishers need 6m to be able to turn. On a red mogul field, which would be fun on the Scramblers, the Punishers are a liability. They are super for making big turns on wide reds at speed and they might be great off piste for all I know, but I bought them as all mountain skis and if they can’t cope with narrow couloirs and steep moguls then they don’t qualify. I am confused that reviews of the ski (including those on this site) describe it as very agile and quick edge to edge which is the opposite of what it is. Now some of this will be down to my (lack of) technique, and the skis do get better the more effort I put in, but skiing at that effort level would wear me out after a couple of hours.

Anyway, I want to replace them with some (all mountain) skis. I want them firstly to be able to do the tight turns and mogul handling that any hire ski can do, and then secondly to support my ambitions to ski better and ski off piste. Skiing better to me means skiing more, different conditions with control and confidence rather than just skiing fast (though that’s fun too). Thirdly, I’d like them to be 3 or 4 years old so I can pick them up 2ndhand.

So far I’ve been recommended Scott Reverse, Salomon Enduro 800XT, Salomon Q90, Dynastar Outland 80XT, Atomic Nomad Blackeye, K2 Apache Recon, Rossi Bandit B2 and Blizzard Bushwacker. I’d really welcome anyone's opinions on these and any other suggestions you may have.

Thanks in advance.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Sorry to be blunt, but this is a 100% technique problem. The Punishers are pretty soft and playful, they definitely definitely have the capability to ski where and how you describe. And ANY ski can be turned within its own length.

I don't want to be nasty, but that's the truth. Maybe try something a little softer, and either shorter or more rockered.
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Quote:

Maybe try something a little softer, and either shorter or more rockered.


and lessons?
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The Scrambler Hot has a turning radius of 15.6m. That's a bit longer than a slalom race ski, but not much. So it's no surprise that you can do relatively compact short radius turns with them. The Scott Punishers are much longer and straighter. With 110mm at the waist they are also going to be slower edge to edge. Remember that reviews tend to be couched in relative terms. They might feel fast edge to edge for a fat ski, but they will still feel slow compared to a much narrower ski. Trying to carve down a corridor 3m wide is not going to be easy on any all-mountain fat ski. If you are a very strong skier you might be surprised what you can get a fat ski to do but your skills are apparently not at that level. That's maybe not a surprise - skiing one week a year just doesn't cut it if you want to open it up like a superstar in expert territory.

Remember that carving is only one way of getting skis to turn! A fat ski is great for powder but to ski it over the whole mountain you have to have more tools in your box. Slarving, smearing, pivoting, jumping....there are many ways to turn apart from a pure carve. It's not problem at all to take these skis down a 3m wide corridor in any conditions, so long as you choose the right turn for the situation.
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When was the last time you had a lesson? Sounds like technique problem and not the ski's. I skied Punishers two weeks ago in Chamonix (they were my friend's as I didn't want to bring my skis) and really enjoyed the ride. I am female and lighter and shorter than you, and skied them in 173. Rocker is substantial and I don't think getting even more rockered skis will solve the problem. Get lessons. If you are staying away from black moguls it's a technique issue as there isn't much difference between red and black bumps, no ski will replace the correct technique and ski for you.
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Agree you need lessons. I skied the Punisher and honestly don't think you can get a much easier ski than that while still being appropriate for your size, the salomons you have are quite short even for a pure piste ski and so will have made sorry turns really easy.
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pam w wrote:
Quote:

Maybe try something a little softer, and either shorter or more rockered.


and lessons?


Well, yeah Laughing

But he'll want something to ski on in the lesson!
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clarky999, But he already has a pair of good skis Smile
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yeah, but they don't turn!
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Looks like they changed the width of the waist or there are more versions. Is the waist around 90mm or 110mm. If it's the latter that could explain it.

http://www.teamalpin.com/de_de/ski-scott-punisher-freerideski.html


http://youtube.com/v/A0xYI6L6EJM
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I wouldn't have thought that a 110mm fat ski is the right thing for piste skiing for anyone other than an accomplished skier. You really have to work to get the things on edge, and as has been said you can not rely on just carving, but have to be able to steer the things. Not sure you have done yourself any favours by getting those just yet.
Lessons are the answer!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
To be honest, at OP's height and weight and more importantly experience level I think 182 cm /110mm waist skis do sound like too much. He doesn't need that much float and would benefit from something a bit more nimble edge to edge. In general, I'm not sure it makes sense for someone who has only done 9 weeks to own skis - their skiing should be developing sufficiently quickly that their needs will keep changing - better of hiring. Perhaps demonstrated by the fact that OP only got two weeks out of his last pair...
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DB, Like with some other Scott skis the waist gets a bit fatter as length gets longer. I skied 173 and they were 105 or 106, but at 183 the waist is 108. Not exactly huge and not super demanding, but it's not an intermediate ski at least without lessons.
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 You know it makes sense.
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never summer, DB, current version is 108, older version was 89mm.
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clarky999,
Yes, looks like the 11/12 model was 89mm in the waist and in 12/13 the waist was upped to 108mm for the 182cm length. Suspect xr39q has the latter.
As you said it's not the ski but the skier, something narrower (but not stiffer) would probably suit xr39q better until he/she builds up the skills to use a wider ski onpiste.

xr39q,
Offpiste the Punishers are likely to be better than the sort of skis you have used up to now. When the reviews say they are good on piste etc it generally means for their width. e.g. One 110mm wasited ski might be great on piste when compared to other skis of a similar width but in general not better than a narrower waisted ski.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
shoogly, This ski has a massive sweet spot, there is no way that they don't turn:) In moguls there is so much ski off the snow they turn on a six pence, just plant a pole and extend and they are where you want them to be. And the edge hold is very good.
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potentially it could be 80% a technique problem and 20% tuning of the ski

just sayin' Little Angel
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^ Unless there is something particularly freaky about the ski e.g. edge high the 20% tuning is charitable shirley? If its the 89mm model they are plenty chuckable so it's definitely a technique/expectation problem. If you can't get down a 3m wide track on anything less than ski jumping skis it's probably not a kit problem.
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never summer, I know Very Happy

sorry, sarcasm has never done well on an internet forum! Very Happy
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fatbob, 20% was probably generous but you know, it could be an issue, i have seen skis on a product test that nobody could turn and were getting really low scores until someone had the gumption to say, these don't feel right, loved them last year and it is only a graphics change... bit of tuning and all was well in the world
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As jedster said, I think 182 is a little long for you at this stage. I'm only a couple of inches shorter than you, and consider myself a pretty advanced and experienced skier, skiing around 5 weeks a year. I'm on Movement Jam 173cm. I had the 182 the season before but prefer the feel of the 173 as an all rounder. The 182 was certainly a little more stable at speed, but I'm still seeing 60mph plus on the 173 and having no stability issues. The shorter length does make it much easier to turn.

Maybe try something a little shorter?
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Punishers are twin tips though, I'm about the same size and have 179 Line Prophets, they definitely do go round corners wink Skied a fair bit more though, more lessons Happy
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Thank you all for replying.
I think clarky999 best sums up my view.


clarky999 wrote:
pam w wrote:
Quote:

Maybe try something a little softer, and either shorter or more rockered.


and lessons?


Well, yeah Laughing

But he'll want something to ski on in the lesson!


I think the Punishers are the wrong ski for me at the moment, and for my lessons, I’ll want something a little softer and shorter. I don’t think it’s the turn radius – the Scramblers are 15.6m, the Punishers are 16m, but if the Scramblers are softer, I guess they’ll bend more in the turns. They’re 2011/2012 Punishers, so 89mm across the boot. This is only 13mm wider than the Scramblers, but do I need something narrower?

So far, nobody’s commented on my shortlist for replacement skis. Is it that they’re all much of a muchness or is someone who can’t ski Punishers so alien that you can’t predict which of them might suit me?
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If it's a 2011/2012 model then they can be a touch long for you. Not too wide by any means but obviously if there is only one type of turn you know and can perform you will struggle. Buschwacker is a very good ski, but 173 will be little bit on a short side and you will still need a lesson as soon as you get them to sort out the technique - lot of intermediates have problem with tail rocker if they rely too much on riding out tails. And the tip also needs to stay pressured. Rent a ski that is not too stiff and not too long but not too short either, in mid-80/mid-90, average stiffness and take a lesson. Or even stick to skis that you have for the time being but sort out the technique. There is not much difference between driving a short ski and a long ski as long as you drive it correctly, if not then longer ski will get you exposed, and this is what probably happened when you got Punishers. With correct technique you shouldn't have a problem riding ski couple cm taller than your height. In tight places you just pivot them and they turn within their length.
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xr39q, given your OP, and the fact that opinion of like and dislike of skis on the web are rubbish the only solution is to find yourself somewhere with snow and try some for yourself.
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given the lessons, and that list above, I'd say try some. the Enduros get good writeups, and the Recon did, but I'd suggest adding the Rictor (which is the sucessor to the Recon), which can also be found 2nd hand for cheap money (if you can stomach the hideous graphics). Rental shop is more likely to have Enduros than anything else on the list (and a whole load more newer skis too)
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Quote:

Or even stick to skis that you have for the time being but sort out the technique.


The punishers should not be a problem at your height and weight. Do your thighs burn when you ski?
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I'm a reasonably similar height (178cm) and weight (80kg) and my widest ski (115mm under foot) is the Rossi S7 in 188. Because of the rockers they ski shorter on firm snow. When I bought them I was significantly lighter (72kg) but I've put on quite a bit of muscle due to taking up kettlebells and powerlifting. That in turn stems from my race ambitions. But I could ski them at 72kg without a problem. I race on a world cup GS ski in 182/r25 and that is much, much more demanding. I wouldn't advise you to go shorter than your existing skis if we are talking about a ski with tip and tail rockers

Some of the skis listed in the OP are a shift back towards a rather more piste-oriented ski (eg. the Recon, the Enduros and the Bandit B2). You will probably feel more comfortable on the piste with them. The Q90 and the and the Bushwacker are pretty much in the same category as the Punishers, given that you have the older, narrower model. I think that would be out of the frying pan and into the fire.

My feeling is that it would be better to stick with the Punishers. It ought to be a good ski for you and matches well to the description of your ambitions and what you want to get out of skiing. Get them tuned and spend the money you would have spent on new skis on some private lessons. Of course if you can pick something up cheap, go for it and come back to the Punishers when you feel you are ready. My garage is full of skis Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
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hyperkub, Older Punishers were a non-rockered twin.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sure. So moving from that ski to a ski of similar length with rockers is already going to feel like moving to a slightly shorter ski.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
With 89mm underfoot and a 16m radius my guess is 3.758% equipment & 96.242% technique.

It might be that the ramp angle on the bindings is significantly different.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=31928
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How is your stance? It sounds as if you might need your boots balancing (as well as lessons in technique). If the soles of your every day shoes wear unevenly, you probably need orthotic footbeds, not just moulded ones.

In skiing, the answer often lies in the boots.
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Quote:

With 89mm underfoot and a 16m radius my guess is 3.758% equipment & 96.242% technique


Yes, that's not too fat and pretty turny. I'll take back what I said - you should stick with the punishers and get more lessons.
Ramp angle is worth checking though - does take a while to adjust to a different ramp.
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Quote:

In skiing, the answer often lies in the boots.


except a good skier can ski with their boots undone


Quote:

How is your stance?

is probably much more related to the problem
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This thread has had me checking the radius of my own new skis, since I'd been wondering whether I'd somewhat over-reached myself in buying them. Thanks. (I should be OK with several hundred more lessons. rolling eyes )
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Pedantica, oooh, what are your new skis?
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queen bodecia, these: http://www.powder7.com/Dynastar-Exclusive-Legend-Eden-Skis-158cm-New-Flat-2013/for-sale
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Pedantica, wow, very nice. Are you enjoying them?
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queen bodecia, yes, so far so good, thanks. I was a little worried about undue pressure on my already creaky knees by the increased width (75 underfoot on my previous Legends, 85 on these) but I think it's OK. I've kept my old skis for the moment, though, just in case. As well as being a bit more appropriate for some off-piste, I think there's benefit to the extra stiffness of the new ones for on-piste as well - the old ones are really too noodly.
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Pedantica, yes I remember you saying that last season. Great that you are getting on well with the new ones. I've stopped worrying about wider skis now, I tried all sorts of crazy things at the fridge test, including these which I really liked:

http://www.atomic.com/en/Products/Alpine/Ski/All%20Mountain%20Twins/VANTAGE_ELYSIAN/AA0024858.aspx?filter=468%3a3

But, the reality is I only ski on piste (or a few feet away from the piste wink ) due to insurance issues so I stuck with buying new piste skis to remove all temptation...

Sorry for thread drift, but I can confirm that longer/fatter skis do go round corners, you just need to crank them over a bit more, ahem...
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