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The end of the seasonaire

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Blimey, this sounds pretty damning for British seasonal workers?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/22/british-ski-workers-set-to-lose-seasonal-jobs-after-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Yet more fallout from Boris' Brexit debacle, we're still waiting for our residency permits to see if we can remain in France..........
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
KenX wrote:
Yet more fallout from Boris' Brexit debacle, we're still waiting for our residency permits to see if we can remain in France..........


Fingers crossed for you!

Doing a ski season was one off the best experiences of my life. What a shame it looks like being denied to the next generation
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And don't forget it's not just one off gap year youngsters as the media portray. There are lots like us, older people who return to the Alps each winter to work, while travelling, and doing other work the rest of the year. We have had a big chunk of our livelihoods taken away, and our whole lifestyle removed from us.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Stop complaining, away and feed your unicorns ...
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BobinCH wrote:
Blimey, this sounds pretty damning for British seasonal workers?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/22/british-ski-workers-set-to-lose-seasonal-jobs-after-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other



absolutely tragic that thousands of young kids being will denied an opportunity my generation took for granted.
instead of working as seasonaires in Tignes or Chamonix my kids will be gainfully employed picking fruit in the fields Very Happy

#brexit dividend
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If kids want to spend a few weeks this winter doing something useful for less money then the legal minimum, and keep Greta happy by not using planes to get there, why not do something like this :
https://www.crisis.org.uk/get-involved/volunteer/
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
So English people running a business (e.g. Chalets) but resident in Europe will have to start up a company in Europe (e.g. France, Austria etc) employ Europeans instead of Brits and pay them in Euros?
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DB wrote:
So English people running a business (e.g. Chalets) but resident in Europe will have to start up a company in Europe (e.g. France, Austria etc) employ Europeans instead of Brits and pay them in Euros?


They'll still be able to hire Brits, there is a seasonaires visa. The fields and building sites around me are full of none EEA citizens. I think the big grump is about having to pay proper wages rather than abusing the posted workers scheme.
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DB wrote:
So English people running a business (e.g. Chalets) but resident in Europe will have to start up a company in Europe (e.g. France, Austria etc) employ Europeans instead of Brits and pay them in Euros?
I think that would apply to all British people (except perhaps for people born in NI who could apply for a Republic of Ireland passport).

The bit you missed is that the tax on their businesses will be paid to the EU country rather than to the UK treasury.
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DB wrote:
So English people running a business (e.g. Chalets) but resident in Europe will have to start up a company in Europe (e.g. France, Austria etc) employ Europeans instead of Brits and pay them in Euros?


Correct : the chalet cost model only really works if you employee youngsters on UK contracts which allows them to be paid benefits in kind (season pass, accomodation, food). It is not a bad deal if you want a short term job in Alps where main benefit is ski time.

As soon as you employee chalet workers on french contracts then the business model only works for high end luxury chalets.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar wrote:

The bit you missed is that the tax on their businesses will be paid to the EU country rather than to the UK treasury.


In just the same way that Amazon et al pay tax on their profits in Luxembourg (?) when most of their turnover is elsewhere? If so, this is just managing the inter-company pricing - the € denominated company makes minimal profit, the GBP denominated company makes the rest of the (whatever) profit
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Correct : the chalet cost model only really works if you employee youngsters on UK contracts which allows them to be paid benefits in kind (season pass, accomodation, food). It is not a bad deal if you want a short term job in Alps where main benefit is ski time.
As soon as you employee chalet workers on french contracts then the business model only works for high end luxury chalets.


Although even high end luxury chalet companies registered in the UK will now be less competitve and will also have to set up companies abroad. All this and then at the same time being uncertain if they have a service to sell this season. Even if they have invested in property (accommodation) and want to get out of the business then their property Investment is probably devalued in the current COVID climate.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Mon 23-11-20 11:13; edited 1 time in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Nemisis wrote:
rob@rar wrote:

The bit you missed is that the tax on their businesses will be paid to the EU country rather than to the UK treasury.


In just the same way that Amazon et al pay tax on their profits in Luxembourg (?) when most of their turnover is elsewhere? If so, this is just managing the inter-company pricing - the € denominated company makes minimal profit, the GBP denominated company makes the rest of the (whatever) profit


The businesses in question are unlikely to be large enough or complex enough to use transfer pricing as an effective tax management tool IMV
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

They'll still be able to hire Brits, there is a seasonaires visa.

Can you link to this? My understanding was they will only be able to hire Brits if they have first advertised the role locally and can show no local (e.g. French) workers are available to do the job, and that the company must then sponsor a work permit.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@davidof, +1. Pay them a fair wage at the same rate as the locals. Just a change in business model. This why the big UK companies pulled out of Switzerland a couple of seasons ago. Not enough profit margin. I'm all for it. Plenty of Visa opportunities and the Aussies, Kiwis and others have been doing it for years.

"Rob Stewart, who runs a a PR firm that represents many businesses in the industry, started off as a ski instructor in the Alps 25 years ago."

“What concerns me the most is the thought that ski holidays will become the exclusive right of the super-wealthy. People like myself, from very normal backgrounds, from families that weren’t used to taking ski holidays, followed a dream by working overseas and earning money from doing something we loved. I’ve managed to make a career out of that, like thousands of others. Brexit is potentially taking those opportunities away.”


Presumably a Guardian reader available and prepared to come up with the "Super-Wealthy" dangly bits. I'm more than happy to accept all those "Super-Wealthy" Danish, Dutch, Polish, Czech and other families who drive down every year for the ski holidays. Much easier to deal with than the Brits.
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Very impressed that Snowheads replaced "dangly bits" with "dangly Bits" in my post Very Happy Very Happy

See it did it again!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It's a shame, but it's not new news surely we have known about it coming all year?

My youngest daughter is doing her A-levels this year and it's all she's wanted to do for years either before or after uni to do a season, so I feel sorry for her, but she's pretty determined and I'm sure we will find a way to make it happen.
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@dunc999, Have at look at SIA, They are still offering Instructor Courses with a job guarantee. It is also the employers responsibility to provide you with an work permit. Always has been in Austria as I have said many times before, current rules still require a Visa to stay over 90 days (In 180).

https://www.siaaustria.com/product/ski-instructor-courses-austria/
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boardiac wrote:
Quote:

They'll still be able to hire Brits, there is a seasonaires visa.

Can you link to this? My understanding was they will only be able to hire Brits if they have first advertised the role locally and can show no local (e.g. French) workers are available to do the job, and that the company must then sponsor a work permit.


It is not very onerous. You contact the job center saying you are looking for fluent English speaking chalet cooks for the next winter season Do this in May. No EU citizens reply, or if they do then interview them. If you don't get any response then you are free to look further.

The problem is chalet companies want to flirt the law using the posted workers scheme.
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@RedandWhiteFlachau 'Presumably a Guardian reader available and prepared to come up with the "Super-Wealthy" ~~~~~~. Aren't you mixing up the statement from a PR person representing the UK Chalet industry, with editorial policy of The Guardian? Why should the Guardian be the one to justify what the PR guy said? Let alone a Guardian Reader like me?

In fact, when I read the article on Saturday, I thought that it leaned almost exclusively on quotes from vested interests, such as the guy you quote, and UK business owners who were essentially losing their pool of cheap British workers. Characterising the fallout from a change in trading environment as bad not because it's hurting their bottom line, but the more acceptable statement that it's a hit to young people's opportunities to get experience abroad (no surprise from a PR guy) then throwing-in the 'super-rich' line for good measure, as it'd probably go down well with their target customer base. Job done.

It seemed to me that the journalist had just rung up a few business owners and PR reps, rather than done any serious research into the broader landscape. Which is much more nuanced and worthy of a much fuller treatment.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 23-11-20 12:05; edited 4 times in total
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I don’t see how it’s a good thing, at least from a Brit perspective. It more or less ended chalet holidays in Switzerland and will probably do the same elsewhere (or at least hike up prices) meaning less holiday choice and fewer opportunities for young Brits to experience a ski season.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
But on another note, every coin has two sides. These arrangements are meant to be reciprocal. So that means that all those thousands of EU young people who currently work in UK hospitality venues won't be able to do it either. @dunc999, and I can persuade our A-Level daughters to bag a job in Costa for 6 months, save up their cash and go on a 90 day ski holiday instead.
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The writing has been on the wall for years: Pre-Brexit, Pre-Covid.
The difference is that the authorities now have started applying the law.
The softening of demand has skewed the risk vs reward proposition against British chalet operators now.
You only need to look back to see how the various elements have been eroded one by one.
First off, it was ski instruction that had controls implemented - so it's only done by registered professionals.
Then amateur guiding was effectively shutdown - so it's only done by registered professionals.
Ski shops offering online prices that match Tour Operator / Chalet deals - so the skis and bindings are only done by registered professionals.
Then Transfers required D1 / CPC (or equivalent grand fathered rights) qualification - so it's only done by registered professionals.
Then lift companies offer discounted online passes cheaper than the Tour Operator - losing commission.
People buy ski insurance online rather than through the Operator - losing commission.
Now forcing the catering staff onto local contracts with proper insurance, minimum wage and living conditions - so it's only done by professionals.
The result is that Operators you can't do it on the cheap as there is no margin, so it's more expensive for consumers.
The flip side is that all of the services are provided by professionals.
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It's not just about British TOs employing British chalet staff etc. It's a much wider picture. How many British people "do a season" working in a bar, shop or hotel? Not just winter but summer too. They would now be subject to work permits, which frankly when it's much easier to employ someone who doesn't need a work permit, will probably put them at the bottom of the pile for jobs. Ski instructors with recognised qualifications might not find it quite so difficult but they may be limited to working just a few peak weeks of the season, with low pay, etc.

This has been on the cards since the Brexit vote, it's not news, but I can understand that Covid has accelerated the situation for this season.
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Quote:

The flip side is that all of the services are provided by professionals.

or not provided at all
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@WindOfChange, +1, But if I could add one change: when lift cos, ski schools and rental shops stopped paying commission in cash. Many an 80s small chalet co barely made a profit, but many owners now have properties abroad wink
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
And I've just been speaking with the MD of MPI again this morning, last week he told me about the big SBIT (Seasonal Businesses in Travel*) meeting that happened on Thursday that he too is involved with and that's what generated all the publicity this weekend. in not just the Grauniard.

http://sbit.org.uk/

And as we were nagging it's not just the ski industry it will affect the likes of Sunsail, Mark Warner etc and many Summer Tour operations and their various RYA Instructor affiliations etc

He also talked about how many companies were looking to other EEC countries for sourcing staff but that's not been at all successful, hence the Chalet holiday will no longer be the same model.

And as for people like us, the French Embassy are not yet processing Long Stay Visa applications for next year?

*Their members

Ski Total, Mark Warner, European Pubs, Neilson, Zenith Holidays, Kaluma Travel, Highlife, Mountainsun France, Venue Holidays, Inghams, Ski Famille, Ski Esprit, Purple Ski, Ski Weekends, Skiworld, Ocean Elements, Inghams lakes and mountains, Hip Hideouts, Seafarer Cruising & Sailing, Simply Morzine, Simply Salema, Will-i-ski, Wildwind, Healthy Options, Ski Vive, Esplora, Inghams Italy, The Alpine Generation, Alpoholics, Cool Ski jobs, Stanford Skiing, Family Ski Company, Ice and Fire Ski and Snowboard Holidays, Ski Olympic, YSE, Inghams, Meribel Ski Chalets, MTB Beds, Alpine Elements, Inferno Morzine, Mountain Heaven, The White Valley Company, Chalet Chardons, Orchards Cookery, Allez Alps, White Mountain Chalets, Ski Magic, The Alpine Club, Equity, Worldwide Kids, Mountain Express, Summit Special, Ski Val, Stanford Skiing, In 2 Action, Friendship travel, Tignes.co.uk, Val.co.uk, Ticket to Ride Group,


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Mon 23-11-20 12:43; edited 1 time in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
chocksaway wrote:
@WindOfChange, +1, But if I could add one change: when lift cos, ski schools and rental shops stopped paying commission in cash. Many an 80s small chalet co barely made a profit, but many owners now have properties abroad wink


That's because they have been using this thing called "Accounting".
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@RedandWhiteFlachau,
I suspect that the word "reciprocal" has been ignored during the Brexit negotiations. It already looks like UK has rolled over in terms of UK driving licences not being accepted in the EU, but EU ones will continue to be accepted in the UK. I suspect that I will have to have a green card for my next visit to mainland Europe but my Austrian friends will not need one to visit the UK.
Spaniel is sorted - she now has two passports - one to travel to mainland Europe and the other to re-enter the UK!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
As a passionate skier and climber in my last year of uni, who has long been planning to spend an extended period in the French alps from next year, this just hit like a tonne of bricks. I hadn't really considered the implications of Brexit in this regard. It looks like my plans could not be possible.

What are my options? I am waiting on German citizenship, but this could take up to three years to come. As a fluent French speaker I guess I could try to find a "proper job" in a mountain city like Grenoble, but it's not really what I had in mind.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@JackSkier, think you should do a search on here as there's been a lot of discussion already about what options there might be.

Have you seen this, option 2 for you ?

I am a student in France (or I am doing vocational training)

https://contacts-demarches.interieur.gouv.fr/brexit/brexit-residence-permit-application/
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@JackSkier This topic has come up before in terms of an imminent graduate asking about strategies for a season in the Alps, so it's worth using the Advanced Search to see if there are any relevant threads already there. Some threads will be about getting a skiing qualification and whether it can be done all in one go alongside earning, and what the cost might be.

In an ideal world, you'd have the money (or in the Real World you might get a repayable loan from parents) to fund a season with complete freedom to do what you want (i.e. no associated bar work, jobs etc. and no qualification attempt). So the main costs would be accommodation, season ski pass, insurance and subsistence. You should be able to hire a studio apartment at a discounted rate for a season. If you arrive December, then your EHIC would cover you for a lot of heath stuff, but you'd still need supplementary insurance. Look at the various threads and the cost for this seem to be about £10K (but you really need to do your own research and also see what people on the forum say in response).

You might additionally opt to try for a ski instruction qualification. This would give you a focus, and of course, something to put on your CV as well. It would certainly put you above the usual template graduate. Threads on this seem to suggest that it costs about £10K for the necessary instruction and certification. Again, see what people think.

As for combining either of the above with paid work, it does look like that will be more difficult post-Brexit.

My only other advice is that you might want to look further afield than France. I'm biased towards the French-speaking Suisse Romande, given we have a place there, but I'd say that instruction in CH is more 'benign' i.e. not designed to exclude foreigners in the way it seems to be in France. If you're interested in postgrad courses, then Lausanne is a great university city, near to the slopes, where you could combine education and skiing.

Had you considered the USA? It might even be easier to do a season there than in the EU. Perhaps look at the official sites for a few places like Heavenly, Vail, Mammoth etc. and see what they have on offer. re jobs. When I skied Heavenly I met a young guy who was out there on a resort management programme that combined working in the resort shops, hotels and on-piste facilities together with instruction etc. as part of a career training for the hospitality industry.
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Thank you very much @Weathercam, @LaForet. A lot of food for thought there, and I will do some research later today.

I have been saving for a while to go to France, but probably not in the realm of £10,000!

Part of the plan is to go to a mountainous area long-term (i.e. not just be a seasonaire, but to live there). I imagine what I will end up doing is going in say Dec, spend the season skiing on the funds I have saved, and then try to find a job thereafter. It looks like as a UK citizen, you get a 6 month job seeking grace period. Alternatively to find an internship/job in Switzerland from the start. As I say, more research needed, but can't help feeling somewhat aggrieved by Brexit and this situation, as I know many do.
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JackSkier wrote:
I imagine what I will end up doing is going in say Dec ...

Do you mean next month ?

You won't get a six month grace period after that.
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JackSkier wrote:
Thank you very much @Weathercam, @LaForet. A lot of food for thought there, and I will do some research later today.

I have been saving for a while to go to France, but probably not in the realm of £10,000!

Part of the plan is to go to a mountainous area long-term (i.e. not just be a seasonaire, but to live there). I imagine what I will end up doing is going in say Dec, spend the season skiing on the funds I have saved, and then try to find a job thereafter. It looks like as a UK citizen, you get a 6 month job seeking grace period. Alternatively to find an internship/job in Switzerland from the start. As I say, more research needed, but can't help feeling somewhat aggrieved by Brexit and this situation, as I know many do.


But we did get to take back control of our sovereignty. Or something. rolling eyes
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@JackSkier, if you do an application as per the link above you get till the end of June anyway regardless of whether you go ahead with long term residency!!

So at least that is next season sorted for you Cool
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Of the chalets operated by British Tour operators what percentage are owned by Brits?
- I would be surprised if other EU operators don't just pick these up going forward and start offering services to the UK if it is all doom and gloom for British T/Os.

To be quite frank I couldn't care if the staff/mini-bus driver etc. were from an EU country and spoke acceptable English - one of my best chalet stays was actually a dutch operator with dutch staff.

I am starting to wonder if I missing something here, what is preventing the larger operators from establishing an entity in Europe and from employing European staff - Spanish, Polish, Czechs, Slovenians would likely be cheaper than Brits and they to also want to be seasonaires. So the sensational statement that chalet-holidays will only be for the "Super-wealthy" is a load of crap as I see it. Worst case is you end up having a managing agency providing EU seaosnaire staff to British T/O's, might be slightly more expensive but there are ways around it.

The rest of Europe manage to go on ski holidays at very reasonable prices so doubt very much is going to change - they used a massive red bus to argue Brexit around 1or2 big points and hid out of sight the 100s of smaller issues and benefits.

It is what it is.
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RedandWhiteFlachau wrote:
But on another note, every coin has two sides. These arrangements are meant to be reciprocal. So that means that all those thousands of EU young people who currently work in UK hospitality venues won't be able to do it either. @dunc999, and I can persuade our A-Level daughters to bag a job in Costa for 6 months, save up their cash and go on a 90 day ski holiday instead.


And meanwhile the cost of products/services which used to use cheaper (and often better) foreign workers will go up. Not every coin has two sides. Some things are just bad. For one, by having a 90 day holiday, your daughter will miss out on some of the valuable skills and experience which come from working abroad. Not to mention the social aspect that being in employment provides. I'm sorry, but this is one brexit turd you cannot polish!
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Ryunis wrote:


For one, by having a 90 day holiday, your daughter will miss out on some of the valuable skills and experience which come from working abroad. Not to mention the social aspect that being in employment provides. I'm sorry, but this is one brexit turd you cannot polish!


Well at least she won't come back with chalet girl arse at the end of the season.

Hard to think what skills they pick up as a TO or chalet slave though but I guess you are in the camp that the African slave trade was a wonderful free opportunity for people to immigrate the Land of the Free.
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