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Issues with Blackdiamond/Pieps transievers

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Just emailed them. I have two DPS Sport transceivers from 2015. Well beyond any warranty. Will report what they say.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Themasterpiece, it appears in the US they are asking people to fill in a warranty form - my DSP sport is from 2014 so like you hoping they will offer something. BTW warranty is up to 5 years if registered, so if you bought them in Winter 2015/16 you may be covered.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@extremerob, I didn’t register my warrantee (or at least don’t have any record of it). But I didn’t expect to have a useless lump of plastic in a few years after buying it. I don’t want my dying minutes wondering if my transceiver turned itself off. And even worse if a loved one is wearing one.
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@Themasterpiece, You don't have to register a warranty in order for it to be valid, proof of purchase will do. Maybe you bought it online and have an email, or a transaction on your credit card.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Update of the day - things are kicking off on the TGR and New Schooler Forums.

Word is that BD are prepping for a full recall to be announced - lets see.

Worth watching this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGnq_GFjoeD/

and


http://youtube.com/v/kBogmJJNORY

Quote:
Looks like someone at Newschoolers created a googe doc to track issues:

https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/t...ps-DSP-Beacons

Here's the text of the NS post:

Hey all, not entirely sure where this tracks just yet, but in an effort to get a consolidated view of just how many devices are affected, I've built this form. If you, or folks you know, have had your DSP Pro or Sport act janky, please log your experience.

https://forms.gle/e98MK2B3n2SQg7yw9
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Scarlet wrote:
@Themasterpiece, You don't have to register a warranty in order for it to be valid, proof of purchase will do. Maybe you bought it online and have an email, or a transaction on your credit card.


I think the standard warrantee is 2 years, but if you register your products online with Pieps it’s extended to 5 years apparently. But that registration should be done within 3 months of purchase. I have an email receipt of the purchase from Nov 2015.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I've just had one given to me (Pieps Sport) still unopened in it's box with a €280 price tag on it. Unwanted as I already have a newish avalanche transceiver plus my old old model for training. Anyone want it for €200?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
From the TGR thread - granted it is the US and we will likely get offered different pricing in the UK/EU. Still waiting for Pieps to come back to my email from Wednesday - has anyone here got a response yet?

Also picked up in adventure journal now: https://www.adventure-journal.com/2020/10/calls-for-black-diamond-to-recall-avy-beacon-mount-after-possible-malfunctions/

Quote:
Thank you for your inquiry regarding the warranty on your Pieps beacon. We have undertaken an extensive investigation of all Pieps beacon models, which includes subjecting them to our own analysis, testing by an independent third-party, and evaluating them against the beacon market at large. Through this testing, we have concluded that Pieps beacons perform above industry standards, unless the beacon is compromised. Our rigorous testing is a reflection of our commitment to your safety and to ensuring that our customers feel confident in the field.
For users of the DSP Sport and DSP Pro beacons, we will undertake a thorough inspection of your beacon and, regardless of what we conclude, offer you the chance to upgrade your beacon through our tiered trade-in program. Users with Beacons purchased over two years ago are eligible to buy-up to another beacon model at the below rates:

Pieps Powder BT: $100.00 USD
Pieps Micro BT or Micro Sensor: $125.00 USD
Pieps Pro BT: $150.00 USD

Attached to this email is a pre-paid shipping label for you to send in your beacon for inspection and upgrade. Please clearly label the outside of the return package with RA XXXXXX. Once we receive your beacon, we will contact you regarding a replacement. If you have any questions in the meantime, please call our product specialists directly at 800-775-5552. Canadian customers will receive a label in a separate email directly from Fedex. Please remember to check your spam folders.
For more than 45 years, Pieps has been the worldwide technology leader in avalanche transceivers. Our mission is to bring you state-of-the-art equipment and peace of mind. Thank you for taking us with you on your backcountry adventures and for your continued support.


Here is the deal for those who are out of warranty (>2 years)...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I'm pretty sure this pricing will remain, and there won't be cost free exchange of old DSP Pro/Sport for newer ones. I guess there's in reality no way for Pieps/BD to survive this, one way or the other. If they go to voluntary recall and change all returned DSP Pro/Sport devices for new ones free of charge, they will go bankrupt because of those expenses, and if they don't do anything (or offer to change malfunctioning devices for $100-150), they will go bankrupt as noone will be touching their stuff anymore. I'm for sure not, so I just picked Barryvox S, put my DSP Pro (for now fully functional, but I simply don't have complete trust in it anymore) for sale and if it will go, it will go, otherwise I will keep it for training device. It doesn't hurt to have few extra devices for training so what the hell, my life is worth more then 299eur that I paid for BarryvoxS. But yeah, not going anywhere near Pieps in future, no matter what, and I guess I'm not going to be the only one.
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Nah, that's over the top.

These things happen: it's certainly not the first transceiver to have a recall.

You can search here to find talk of some of them, but Ortovox for example had some notoriously bad products in the early digital days and the brand continues to have recalls with more recent devices. In my view that's an inevitable feature of this sort of manufacturing. People still fly in Boeing 'planes despite the 737 Max recall.

Insolvency? Unless you pulled their accounts that's pure speculation, and to judge by the above it's probably nonsense.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
primoz wrote:
I'm as noone will be touching their stuff anymore. I'm for sure not, so I just picked Barryvox S, put my DSP Pro (for now fully functional, but I simply don't have complete trust in it anymore) for sale and if it will go, it will go, otherwise I will keep it for training device.


For sale with or without a disclaimer about the potential issue?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@philwig, it might be over the top. But with recent Ortovox recall, they just needed to change software. Sure they had some expenses for paid shipping here and there, and some work when upgrading transceivers. With Pieps it's different. It's about pretty much every single transceiver they produced and sold in last what 10 years or so, and it's not about changing software but replacing millions of transceivers with completely new devices. With that, expenses are on completely different level.
I know that bad things happen, but main thing, at least for me is, how company is dealing with them once they do happen. Ortovox was dealing fine, at least from my experiences with recent 3+ recall (my wife's 3+ was actually affected with that bug). For Pieps and their current way of handling for now, well not so much. But that's just me. I'm sure there's plenty of people who don't care about that and will still buy their things, but I'm also pretty sure, there's plenty of people who won't.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Themasterpiece wrote:
Scarlet wrote:
@Themasterpiece, You don't have to register a warranty in order for it to be valid, proof of purchase will do. Maybe you bought it online and have an email, or a transaction on your credit card.


I think the standard warrantee is 2 years, but if you register your products online with Pieps it’s extended to 5 years apparently. But that registration should be done within 3 months of purchase. I have an email receipt of the purchase from Nov 2015.


Update: Still no reply from Pieps. In the meantime I appear to have successfully registered my device for the extended warrantee.

If the offer comes to replace or upgrade, any opinions on Micro BT Button vs Micro BT Sensor? (I’ll need to thinking whether to use as a primary device or a backup that goes in the backpack)
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:

But yeah, not going anywhere near Pieps in future, no matter what, and I guess I'm not going to be the only one.


Meh. It's how things work. Based on that logic you would never fly as the aviation industry has been built on improving things after problems were found due to fatal accidents. They have a great product with a relatively minor (but potentially very serious) flaw. Fix the button issue and it's a great transceiver. The only thing that might affect my choice to use them is how they respond to this current problem in terms of recall/trading in.

Fwiw I have one of the transceivers in question. I'd be happy to take it out with the caveat of checking the button for cracks and the fact it isn't sliding without the button being down each day. I probably only do about 10-20 backcountry days per season so it's not getting a huge amount of wear, which I suspect is what causes the problem for some. That said I will probably trade in just to get a newer model and one less thing to have to worry about.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
boarder2020 wrote:

Fwiw I have one of the transceivers in question. I'd be happy to take it out with the caveat of checking the button for cracks and the fact it isn't sliding without the button being down each day. I probably only do about 10-20 backcountry days per season so it's not getting a huge amount of wear, which I suspect is what causes the problem for some. That said I will probably trade in just to get a newer model and one less thing to have to worry about.


The buttons on mine are fine and I couldn’t replicate the YouTube video where it’s in the holder. But if there is some force on the slider, it does need hardly any pressure on the button for it to slide up or down. Try it. I’ve had mine in my pants pocket from time to time, which I think is much more likely to cause the slider to move. Will be leaving a beacon in it’s holder from now on.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Themasterpiece wrote:
... Will be leaving a beacon in it’s holder from now on.


I would presume they supply design the the holder to provide the safest way of carrying the beacon, both in terms of ensuring you are still attached to the beacon, and in terms of protecting the beacon itself.

I have 4 of these, so watching with interest.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ringingmaster wrote:
Themasterpiece wrote:
... Will be leaving a beacon in it’s holder from now on.


I would presume they supply design the the holder to provide the safest way of carrying the beacon, both in terms of ensuring you are still attached to the beacon, and in terms of protecting the beacon itself.

I have 4 of these, so watching with interest.


Yes but I think it’s common practice to have beacons in pockets of ski pants and indeed, some ski pants have pockets designed for this.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I doesn't look like using the holder prevents the device from turning itself off though, otherwise that would be an obvious solution.
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What's the problem? Just Say "NO" to Pieps.
Don't use them. If you are given one to wear, refuse to accept it.

If you are going offpiste, you need to have your own Transceiver!
If you are looking to buy an Avalanche Transceiver, I would recommend BCA Back Country Access Tracker "S". (UK £215.95 )

https://skipresto.com/en-gb/DnnImageHandler.ashx?mode=securefile&fileId=190&MaxWidth=74&MaxHeight=42

You can buy one here: https://www.mountainsports.co.uk/products/bca-tracker-s-avalanche-transceiver-5-year-warranty?_pos=2&_sid=7bcc748f8&_ss=r

In Central Belt? Come training in the sand at North Berwick! https://www.mountainsports.co.uk/collections/training/products/bca-transceiver-training


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 26-10-20 12:48; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@SkiPresto, personally I've never found the BCA transceivers intuitive to use. Add to that the shorter range compared to several other current beacons (including the Pieps/BD models).

I'm waiting to see what Pieps say before I decide whether to swap my DSP Sport (brand new from a warranty claim after last season, nothing to do with the switch), replace it with another brand or keep using it (whilst keeping a very close eye on the switch). No beacon is perfect, and I'm not going to rush to swap one that I've been very happy with (with a known but v rare flaw) for one with as yet unknown issues.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
mgrolf wrote:
@SkiPresto, personally I've never found the BCA transceivers intuitive to use. Add to that the shorter range compared to several other current beacons (including the Pieps/BD models).

I'm waiting to see what Pieps say before I decide whether to swap my DSP Sport (brand new from a warranty claim after last season, nothing to do with the switch), replace it with another brand or keep using it (whilst keeping a very close eye on the switch). No beacon is perfect, and I'm not going to rush to swap one that I've been very happy with (with a known but v rare flaw) for one with as yet unknown issues.


Try the BCA unit I recommended. (BCA Back Country Access Tracker "S"). You'll change your opinion.
(And you are quite wrong about the range of BCA Tracker Transceiver).
I would have agreed with you a couple of years ago, because I still have an older BCA Tracker (20 years old now) and it isn't nearly as good as the new Tracker "S".
The simpler the better when it comes to Transceivers. If you are the offpiste leader, *You* are the one who is the most likely to get taken. You are placing your life in the hands of your friends or clients, who will be freaking out! Tracker "S" comes out top in ease-of-use and accuracy trials.

We had a Test Fest recently, and the Tracker "S" was very accurate and very easy to use. Especially for single burial (And that's the vast majority of real burials).

You say "No Beacon is Perfect"! Well a "Beacon" that doesn't transmit is by definition Not a beacon.
The Beacon part (of a transceiver) must be perfect. It has only one job, once it's switched to "TRansmit", and that is to transmit on 457 kHz for as long as possible.

Any transceiver unit that fails to do that with 100% reliability because of its design should not be used.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 26-10-20 13:28; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
At the end of the day other beacon manufacturers have had issues in the past, the response from Pieps has been partly the issue, probably social media has helped fuel/spread the info and thus make everyone more aware of the issue at the same time.

It is hard to understand what is causing some units to display the issues with the slider releasing and others unable to replicate - maybe the switch has a maximum number of "cycles" it can handle between off/send/search before the plastic degrades to a certain point.

Either way they aren't the first to have transceiver issues and likely wont be the last.

2020: BCA "recommend" software update for tracker 2
2018: Ortovox recalled the 3+ unit
2015: Ortovox recalled the S1+ unit
2013: Pieps recalled the Vector
2005: Mammut recalled the Barryvox Opto 3000
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
boarder2020 wrote:
The only thing that might affect my choice to use them is how they respond to this current problem in terms of recall/trading in.

And that was exactly my point. I know things happen. I know nowadays we are more like beta testers then final product users (yeah testing costs so why to bother if people are happy to pay to be beta testers), regardless if it's transceivers for 300eur or cars for 30.000eur. So it's not that I'm looking for company or product which doesn't have a single fault. But I do look for company that responds in normal way to these faults.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
extremerob wrote:
At the end of the day other beacon manufacturers have had issues in the past, the response from Pieps has been partly the issue, probably social media has helped fuel/spread the info and thus make everyone more aware of the issue at the same time.

It is hard to understand what is causing some units to display the issues with the slider releasing and others unable to replicate - maybe the switch has a maximum number of "cycles" it can handle between off/send/search before the plastic degrades to a certain point.

Either way they aren't the first to have transceiver issues and likely wont be the last.

2020: BCA "recommend" software update for tracker 2
2018: Ortovox recalled the 3+ unit
2015: Ortovox recalled the S1+ unit
2013: Pieps recalled the Vector
2005: Mammut recalled the Barryvox Opto 3000


@extremerob I would say you are conflating fatal design flaws (Serious) and Product Recalls (Serious) with routine software updates (You pay extra for the ability to upgrade the software!).
Read more about it here:https://backcountryaccess.com/en-gb/blog/p/t2-software-update
It isn't a safety-critical issue.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
...


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Mon 26-10-20 13:52; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
SkiPresto wrote:
extremerob wrote:
At the end of the day other beacon manufacturers have had issues in the past, the response from Pieps has been partly the issue, probably social media has helped fuel/spread the info and thus make everyone more aware of the issue at the same time.

It is hard to understand what is causing some units to display the issues with the slider releasing and others unable to replicate - maybe the switch has a maximum number of "cycles" it can handle between off/send/search before the plastic degrades to a certain point.

Either way they aren't the first to have transceiver issues and likely wont be the last.

2020: BCA "recommend" software update for tracker 2
2018: Ortovox recalled the 3+ unit
2015: Ortovox recalled the S1+ unit
2013: Pieps recalled the Vector
2005: Mammut recalled the Barryvox Opto 3000


@extremerob I would say you are conflating fatal design flaws (Serious) and Product Recalls (Serious) with routine software updates (You pay extra for the ability to upgrade the software!).
Read more about it here:https://backcountryaccess.com/en-gb/blog/p/t2-software-update
It isn't a safety-critical issue.


Quote:
Power-saving mode activates after 12 hours of inactivity while the device is on, and the updates to the pulse will conform to the international standard—ensuring the Tracker 2 works with all other avalanche transceivers


Arguable that while it is a routine software update, it is a massive issue and could be fatal if your tracker enters into the power-saving mode, you're buried, and a signal cannot be picked up by another transceiver. Either way the point here is that issues with transceivers are not just limited to Pieps, and the replacement devices they are offering are likely to be every bit as reliable as those of any other manufacturer.

Isn't there a saying along the lines of a devil known is better than the unknown?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
If your DSP is still in warranty send an email over to support@pieps.com. Inform them of your concerns regarding unit and they will offer you an upgrade. I have recently sent mine back and have been offered a Powder BT.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@extremerob
No. You are not being accurate with your debate, here. People might read this stuff and get the wrong opinion.

Quote:
Arguable that while it is a routine software update, it is a massive issue and could be fatal if your tracker enters into the power-saving mode, you're buried, and a signal cannot be picked up by another transceiver.


It seems you read the official page I posted? You saw that the update wasn't mandatory.
You saw that the Power-Saving mode doesn't kick-in until after 12 hours from being switched on.
Also, Power-saving mode isn't a "Massive Issue" it's a feature. It doesn't stop transmitting!!

At the top of every descent, standard safety-checks must be done, anyway. Everyone should switch into receive and test reception as well as transmission. It's 12 hours from that moment.


But it has to be noted: That Transceiver model (BCA Tracker 2) is at the mature end of its product life. You wouldn't be advised to buy a new one without considering the latest design (Tracker "S" or similar)
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:


At the top of every descent, standard safety-checks must be done, anyway. Everyone should switch into receive and test reception as well as transmission.


Is this really considered normal? I don't know anyone that does a beacon test at the top of each descent. Every avalanche course I've done says beacon test at the start of the day, then keep it stored away unless it is needed.

Quote:

maybe the switch has a maximum number of "cycles" it can handle between off/send/search before the plastic degrades to a certain point.


I think this is probably the case and seems to make sense. Or people forcing slides when the button is not fully depressed. I have been trying mine today and there is no way it's moving without considerable force. I remember reading a review of the pieps before I got it that had the difficulty of sliding to change modes while wearing gloves as a negative of the device! Just goes to show how something can go from no problem to big problem very quickly.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@SkiPresto, I said it was a "recommended update" for the tracker 2, yes I am completely aware that it kicks in after 12 hours, for probably the vast majority of users they leave base and return in a 12hour window, though there are others who tour from before the first light until sunset.

There are a number of other transceivers on that list as well.

A huge part of this Pieps/BD transceiver issue has been the level of coverage it has received by pro skiers on Instagram/Facebook.

My point is that Pieps with certain models appear to have an issue, they aren't the first, they won't be the last. Their response to date has been questionable , but I wouldn't be surprised if they are trying to determine exactly what the issue is.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
boarder2020 wrote:
... Is this really considered normal? ...
wink No, completely bonkers.
Maybe it's a "purity spiral", where people feel the need to claim to be safer than others?

I'm so safe, I check my transceiver every turn!

Pretty much all my stuff gets recalled, from my airbag through to my car.
They're all absolutely lethal as delivered, built by killer companies who are aching to take me down.
I like recalls because it means stuff is getting fixed.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@allthegeanoidea, did Pieps offer you a free replacement, or was there cost involved?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
great article over on wildsnow where Lou tears down the DSP and looks at the mechanism of the slider and possible failure methods

https://www.wildsnow.com/28500/test-pieps-black-diamond-dsp-sport-beacon-avalanche/#more-28500
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mgrolf wrote:
@allthegeanoidea, did Pieps offer you a free replacement, or was there cost involved?


Just had to pay postage to Austria, the upgrade is free of charge.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
extremerob wrote:
great article over on wildsnow where Lou tears down the DSP and looks at the mechanism of the slider and possible failure methods

https://www.wildsnow.com/28500/test-pieps-black-diamond-dsp-sport-beacon-avalanche/#more-28500


I had also engineered a simple solution similar to using gaffa tape that prevented the switch moving when pressure was applied to the lock button. Was also in the process of modifying the pouch with a plate to prevent pressure on the lock. But this was before reading on Instagram that Pieps would offer an upgrade if users were concerned about device.
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Just tested my DSP sport, it does indeed move far to easily, even with the screen facing inwards in the holster. Pieps have been emailed.....
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have not yet had a reply to my email to dsp@pieps.com so I have forward it to support@pieps.com
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@jedster, in the same boat, sent an email to the dsp address on Wednesday, and to Support last night with no response yet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Just got this from Pieps (in response to an email to support@pieps.com), I did not mention whether or not I was under warranty ( I am not, my DSP sport was purchased in Feb 2014). I also was not offered a choice of upgrade options.

Quote:
thank you for your message.



Gladly I can offer you an upgrade (Powder BT) for 100€ incl. VAT.

Please send the DSP Sport directly to us with using the device service form (https://my.pieps.com/de#deviceservice).

Please note in the comment field: "Upgrade Powder BT note 100€".



As soon as we receive the DSP Sport you will receive an order confirmation for the new avalanche transceiver. The payment should be done via cash in advance. After receipt of payment the new avalanche transceiver will be sent to you.

Please note that the processing can take 5-10 working days.



Many thanks!



If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.



Mit freundlichen Grüßen

With kind regards



Doris Resch

Product Service

_________________________
Pieps GmbH
Parkring 4, A-8403 Lebring
T +43 3182 52556 - 30 I F +43 3182 52556 - 19

resch.doris@pieps.com
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@extremerob,

Thanks
I got a reply from Doris Resch this morning but she was asking me for serial numbers and proof of purchase. I've given her what I can (they are in France) and hopefully I'll get a similar offer.
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