 Poster: A snowHead
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The argument feels a little moot. For those who are in the at-risk groups, the vaccine will almost certainly be the better option than potentially catching the virus, and that also goes for their carers and those with increased exposure risk (e.g. healthcare workers). For everyone outside of those groups, you will be so far down the list that it will probably have been in use for a year or more before you get offered it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But the reality is that a significant proportion of the population will need to be vaccinated in order to stop the virus from spreading. That would suggest far more than the elderly, people with health concerns and healthcare workers would need to be vaccinated. Those who take the decision not to be vaccinated when offered must surely accept that they are a potential risk to others.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'll have the vaccine, but being 35 I probably won't be able to get it until later in the summer or even the autumn. I assume the more people who are older than me who refuse to get the vaccine will mean I should be able to get it sooner. Which for me is a big plus, but I'm not holding my breath on that (so to speak).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| But the reality is that a significant proportion of the population will need to be vaccinated in order to stop the virus from spreading. That would suggest far more than the elderly, people with health concerns and healthcare workers would need to be vaccinated. Those who take the decision not to be vaccinated when offered must surely accept that they are a potential risk to others. |
Have they now proved that those that are vaccinated don’t spread it? Last I read (and I haven’t read everything that has been published!),this was something they weren’t sure of and needed further analysis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| MorningGory wrote: |
@boyanr, I'm just making the point that I take the advice of those with expert knowledge of the field in question - your's isn't vaccines. I didn't bring thalidomide into the discussion.
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No, what you tried to do say between the lines is that people who don't follow scientist opinion are stupid. I never gave you an advice or asked you to do like me, I just said what I would do. Life is all about risk assessment and risk tolerance - all of our decisions are based on this, and since it's a very individual thing we all take our decisions alone, as we are the only ones responsible for the outcome. Some people ski cautiously on blues, others run down blacks, and others freeride in avalanche prone areas. No ski expert can tell YOU what is best for YOU in the mountains, it's a decision you make yourself based on your risk assessment and risk tolerance. So the logic that one should follow blindly what experts tell them is not how life works. If not else - event "experts" don't universally agree on the same thing. This is why you are always entitled to "second opinion" when it comes to healthcare.
Last year I broke a fifth metatarsal – emergency room doctor put a cast and told me I will be in it like 4-6 weeks at least. The next day I went to another doctor, who saw the x-ray, took the scissors and removed the cast. Told me this injury needs no cast, only physio and once the swelling is down I should start walking on it. Guess what - 4 weeks after injury I was freely walking around Iceland, instead of still being in a cast. So if I listened to the first "expert in the field" I would have had to cancel my Iceland trip and stay in bed for 6 weeks at least. Well I'm glad I didn't 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ulmerhutte wrote: |
Sounds sensible, but how did Thalidomide work out for the woman, and their children, who trusted the experts? |
A brilliant example of a total non-sequitur argument / chemophobia.
I'll have a nice C2H5OH with a bit of dihydrogen monoxide and C20H24N2O2 (sounds really really bad)
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| boyanr wrote: |
I am neither an anti-vaxer .....( nor anti-pharma (my wife works in big pharma actually). But ..... |
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It amuses me that a bunch of people who willingly throw themselves down mountains on bits of wood are discussing risk profile
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes that's true, but I guess we feel in control of that and we can se the danger.
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@boyanr, the flaw with your approach is that if everyone took the same self-interested approach as you then nobody would want to be one of the first to get the vaccine and very few people would take it. Is it your view that it’s better to put up with all the current restrictions and deaths for another year or two until folk like you feel the vaccine is safe enough? That seems pretty extreme. The alternative - that you benefit from everyone else taking it whilst avoiding it yourself just seems pathetically selfish.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It looks like the vaccine will be viewed the same way as the lockdown rules.
A very good idea for everyone else to adhere to.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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First, I think the preceding dialogue just goes to prove my point that the Govt needs to start a vaccine education initiative now. Rather than not bother and then realise in mid-summer 2021 that not enough people are participating, making the whole cost and effort worthless, and plunging us back into more cycles of infection and lockdown. All of which could be avoided.
Second, there are genuine incidents that make people concerned about medical advice, in both directions. The US Polio Vaccination scandal in the early 20th Century and Thalidomide are always cited by anti-vaccination zealots as justification for perpetual and complete rejection of all medical advice and all forms of vaccination and the evil of Big Pharma. MMR is cited as a counter by others as an example of what happens when a failed medic sells out to a tabloid in order to advance their personal interests against the combined weight of established opinion. A more moderate supporter of the 'lone voice' MMR-type dissent will refer to Lister's work on improving hospital hygiene and especially operations, which was 99% rejected initially by established medical opinion. And so on. If the full repertoire of arguments for general vaccination aren't presented to the public, along with the contra-arguments, it'll all descend into a polarised shouting match and get us no nearer to the levels of vaccination that will be needed.
The Prime Minister's name-calling of those worried about vaccination as 'nutters' is a lazy ad offensive simplification of a complex area of public health over which many people have understandable concerns. We don't need tabloid soundbites, we need education and information.
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| Pastorius wrote: |
| It amuses me that a bunch of people who willingly throw themselves down mountains on bits of wood are discussing risk profile |
It amuses me that you don't understand that the ability to understand risk is precisely what enables people to "throw themselves down mountains" safely. It's the least dangerous sport I'm involved in.
Is This Season Going To Happen for The British ?
Well, the vaccination infrastructure is looking good so there's a chance some of us may get out late March or in April.
I'm not sure what's going to happen with crossing borders, but I doubt that the flat earth/ anti-vaccine people will
be allowed to do that unless the destination country has vaccinated their entire non-stupid population already.
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You know it makes sense.
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[quote="philwig"]
| Pastorius wrote: |
I'm not sure what's going to happen with crossing borders, but I doubt that the flat earth/ anti-vaccine people will
be allowed to do that unless the destination country has vaccinated their entire non-stupid population already. |
That is an interesting and insightful point. To be allowed to book your child into a French run creche you need to bring your child health booklet with proof of vaccination.
Post Brexit- no freedom of movement and the Frenchies can construct as many obstacles as they want- which seems a sensible way of keeping that peculiar British sub species of Homos sapiens northlondonii gulibilus goopius yonistoney - (you don't know who you are though)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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or is it yoneystoni? or yonicalculi?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes I guess a Covid vaccination certificate might be required for travel in the future, just like yellow fever is for certain countries now.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@paulo, i hope so
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's probably not going to happen for those of us at the bottom of the vaccine priority list if you're going to have a certificate to travel. Oh well.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| PrimroseAndBlue wrote: |
| It's probably not going to happen for those of us at the bottom of the vaccine priority list if you're going to have a certificate to travel. Oh well. |
That's basically children, who don't really face much risk.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
I'll be one of the 250,000, but not because I'm an anti-vaxxer.
Do people on here have the annual flu jab (vaccine)?
I've only had one - prerequisite for employment - and that's the only time in about 30 years I've had flu.
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I agree with Mike..
I am not an Antivaxer per se (polio, measles, TB ) because I have never really ever got Sick not even Flu .. I have never taken a Flu vaccine and i strongly believe that natural seasonal antibodies are built up over the years.
I strongly believe people who have started to get vaccinated (from mid 80's onwards) for flu will have to vaccinate for the rest of their lives because they have null & voided the opportunity for their bodies to fightback as nature intended. This is because the body has missed the annual "natural" cycle of this virus.
IMPORTANT:
[B]There is also the Unknown ... It is still not clear what happens to people who take the vaccine. Although they should not contract the virus afterwards (that is point). The experts still do NOT know if vaccinated people still continue to carry the virus and a potential risk to others ! [B/]
I know for sure in Holland currently around 50% of the population will not take up the vaccine due to testing & safety concerns ... Most have said they will wait at least 1-3yrs to see.
It is much the same safety awareness story in Germany & Scandinavia ..
Does anyone know what happens to the life of new-born's to the recipient's of the Vaccines? ANSWER NO !!
Does immunity after getting Covid-19 last longer than protection from Covid19 vaccines?
The protection someone gains from having an infection (called natural immunity) varies depending on the disease, and it varies from person to person. Since this virus is new, we don’t know how long natural immunity might last. Some early evidence—based on some people— seems to suggest that natural immunity may not last very long.
Regarding vaccination, we won’t know how long immunity lasts until we have a vaccine and more data on how well it works.
Both natural immunity and vaccine-induced immunity are important aspects of COVID-19 that experts are trying to learn more about, and CDC will keep the public informed as new evidence becomes available.
The Answer is for everyone to build up Natural Antibodies
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| philwig wrote: |
| PrimroseAndBlue wrote: |
| It's probably not going to happen for those of us at the bottom of the vaccine priority list if you're going to have a certificate to travel. Oh well. |
That's basically children, who don't really face much risk. |
I'm in my mid-Thirties. If today's numbers and the age bands referenced are accurate, it'll probably be April.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
... I won't be getting the COVID vaccine - unlikely to qualify - for the same reason.
I don't feel I'm in the at risk group (I'm 54 years of age).
Whilst I haven't been tested I believe I had it back in February in Japan.
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My understanding is that you'll be offered flu if you're over 50, and then you'd be scheduled for the
2 Covid does once they've done those more at risk (older or health care workers) than you.
Previous experience with the virus doesn't appear to be relevant.
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I got a letter offering me the flu vaccine a couple of weeks ago (thankfully not offering me the flu  ), I phoned the surgery to try and ask if can get an egg free variant and to book it but they were on lunch (which is of course the only break in my day when they are open when I can phone them as I am on lunch then). Today I got a letter saying my invite to have it was an error.
I had assumed it was because I am asthmatic but the letter was sent because I had glandular fever as a child, and they have now changed their minds over that. Good thing I am so busy at work then...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| LaForet wrote: |
First, I think the preceding dialogue just goes to prove my point that the Govt needs to start a vaccine education initiative now. Rather than not bother and then realise in mid-summer 2021 that not enough people are participating, making the whole cost and effort worthless, and plunging us back into more cycles of infection and lockdown. All of which could be avoided.
Second, there are genuine incidents that make people concerned about medical advice, in both directions. The US Polio Vaccination scandal in the early 20th Century and Thalidomide are always cited by anti-vaccination zealots as justification for perpetual and complete rejection of all medical advice and all forms of vaccination and the evil of Big Pharma. MMR is cited as a counter by others as an example of what happens when a failed medic sells out to a tabloid in order to advance their personal interests against the combined weight of established opinion. A more moderate supporter of the 'lone voice' MMR-type dissent will refer to Lister's work on improving hospital hygiene and especially operations, which was 99% rejected initially by established medical opinion. And so on. If the full repertoire of arguments for general vaccination aren't presented to the public, along with the contra-arguments, it'll all descend into a polarised shouting match and get us no nearer to the levels of vaccination that will be needed.
The Prime Minister's name-calling of those worried about vaccination as 'nutters' is a lazy ad offensive simplification of a complex area of public health over which many people have understandable concerns. We don't need tabloid soundbites, we need education and information. |
So you are unhappy that boris called anti vaxxers nutters but you are happy to call them zealots and a failed medic, are insults only ok on one side of the argument ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes, it correctly stated that Covid and influenza surveillance would be covered a single report (not that the data should be combined).
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 20-11-20 23:22; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| robs1 wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
First, I think the preceding dialogue just goes to prove my point that the Govt needs to start a vaccine education initiative now. Rather than not bother and then realise in mid-summer 2021 that not enough people are participating, making the whole cost and effort worthless, and plunging us back into more cycles of infection and lockdown. All of which could be avoided.
Second, there are genuine incidents that make people concerned about medical advice, in both directions. The US Polio Vaccination scandal in the early 20th Century and Thalidomide are always cited by anti-vaccination zealots as justification for perpetual and complete rejection of all medical advice and all forms of vaccination and the evil of Big Pharma. MMR is cited as a counter by others as an example of what happens when a failed medic sells out to a tabloid in order to advance their personal interests against the combined weight of established opinion. A more moderate supporter of the 'lone voice' MMR-type dissent will refer to Lister's work on improving hospital hygiene and especially operations, which was 99% rejected initially by established medical opinion. And so on. If the full repertoire of arguments for general vaccination aren't presented to the public, along with the contra-arguments, it'll all descend into a polarised shouting match and get us no nearer to the levels of vaccination that will be needed.
The Prime Minister's name-calling of those worried about vaccination as 'nutters' is a lazy ad offensive simplification of a complex area of public health over which many people have understandable concerns. We don't need tabloid soundbites, we need education and information. |
So you are unhappy that boris called anti vaxxers nutters but you are happy to call them zealots and a failed medic, are insults only ok on one side of the argument ? |
Absolutely. The MMR propaganda was from a failed medic - struck off for malpractice - who now spouts his lies for money in, of course, the USA. So immoral as well.
I was not characterising anti-vaxxers as zealots. I was characterising as zealots those who decide to discount all medical opinion and all vaccination and all international company pharmaceutical products on the basis of one incidence of medical and pharmaceutical malpractice. And if you read my posts carefully, you'll see that if anything, I'm bending over backwards to underline that reservations about vaccination are reasonable and need to be answered reasonably, if any immunisation programme is to work.
it also seems reasonable to state what a Prime Minister should be offering us: which is explanation and dialogue, not name-calling.
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| boyanr wrote: |
| This is bringing the discussion to a really low level. They were taking this for morning sickness - a condition that requires no treatment, it does not harm and goes away on its own. |
Thalidomide was a terrible tragedy but you are talking rubbish above. Making out women were just popping pills for no good reason is just not true. With some women it not just morning, it's all day. It does do harm because they're losing weight and the baby isn't growing. It can go on for months and some women are hospitalized. If you'd been vomiting constantly for months, worried sick () about your baby you wouldn't have written this. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/severe-vomiting-in-pregnancy-hyperemesis-gravidarum/
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You know it makes sense.
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@ed123, sorry, but I am going to have to ask you to elucidate C20H24N2O2.
I have a reasonable but old chemistry background - but struggle with atomic rather than structural formulae. My first thought was quinine (gin and tonic) but I think that is basically a benzene ring with side groups, then caffeine (vodka and coke) but even that won't get near 20 carbons. That leaves me with things I have no idea of the chemical make-up of, like components of red wine such as tannic acid and resveratol. Help!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@j b, Wikipedia tells me it's quinine.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks @sugarmoma666, I should have done my own research rather than trying to work from a dodgy memory last night!
It is possible my brain was hazily remembering something about quinoline, but even that is a double ring.
(And I checked red wine, tannic acid is huge; resveratrol is more the sort of thing I was thinking about but fewer than 20 carbons).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| j b wrote: |
@ed123, sorry, but I am going to have to ask you to elucidate C20H24N2O2.
I have a reasonable but old chemistry background - but struggle with atomic rather than structural formulae. My first thought was quinine (gin and tonic) but I think that is basically a benzene ring with side groups, then caffeine (vodka and coke) but even that won't get near 20 carbons. That leaves me with things I have no idea of the chemical make-up of, like components of red wine such as tannic acid and resveratol. Help! |
You were bang on with quinine
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@chocksaway, well that's a load less D&V in the world.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Care home residents and staff, healthcare workers – from the beginning of December;
Ages 80 plus – from mid-December;
Everyone aged 70-80 – from late December;
Everyone aged 65-70 – from early January;
All high and moderate risk under 65s – from early January;
Everyone aged 50-65 – from mid-January; and
Everyone aged 18-50 – from late January; but with the bulk of this group vaccinated during March.
Under the plan, every English over-18 who wants a vaccine will be vaccinated by April.
Move all palns to easter!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="Mr.Egg"
Under the plan, every English over-18 who wants a vaccine will be vaccinated by April.
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If the Gov don't feck it up
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
Care home residents and staff, healthcare workers – from the beginning of December;
Ages 80 plus – from mid-December;
Everyone aged 70-80 – from late December;
Everyone aged 65-70 – from early January;
All high and moderate risk under 65s – from early January;
Everyone aged 50-65 – from mid-January; and
Everyone aged 18-50 – from late January; but with the bulk of this group vaccinated during March.
Under the plan, every English over-18 who wants a vaccine will be vaccinated by April.
That’s quicker than I thought it would be
Move all palns to easter! |
That’s quicker than I thought it would be
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@Mr.Egg,
I know what I'm getting for Christmas now 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
Care home residents and staff, healthcare workers – from the beginning of December;
Ages 80 plus – from mid-December;
Everyone aged 70-80 – from late December;
Everyone aged 65-70 – from early January;
All high and moderate risk under 65s – from early January;
Everyone aged 50-65 – from mid-January; and
Everyone aged 18-50 – from late January; but with the bulk of this group vaccinated during March.
Under the plan, every English over-18 who wants a vaccine will be vaccinated by April.
Move all palns to easter! |
Where are all the vaccine doses going to come from?
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@Kenzie, Dont you believe in Father Christmas? 
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FAQ
