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So what happens if skiers contract CV19 on holiday?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

No demographic has a 20% fatality rate

Indeed! Thanks for a breath of sanity, @Scarlet! Anyone with such a high likelihood of dying from such a ubiquitous and easily transmissible pathogen would have to have a bit of a death wish to go on a ski holiday.

Of course the risks are SO much lower for us girls. wink
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Scarlet, has himself got a steezy Burton camo mask?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Dave of the Marmottes, Just a black buff, in an attempt to look as much like a robber/ninja as possible wink
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'No demographic has a 20% fatality rate'

That's not what I said.

The 18% (roughly 1 in 5) are the proportion of UK skiers over 60, in the highest-risk age category for serious symptoms and death. Not the rate of mortality.

I was trying to convey - probably not very well - that for us 60+ guys going down with something that's making us feel pretty ill, then being told "You've got all the symptoms of Covid19" is on a par with being told "It may be prostate cancer, kidney failure or just a bad infection."

The over-riding thought then is to get the thing sorted ASAP, rather than more mundane concerns about repatriation, or forcing others in the group to self-isolate etc. I'll want to see a medic and if necessary, want to be admitted to hospital if that forestalls it getting more serious.

Now, you can say 'Well, then, don't go skiing.' but you can't necessarily take that strategy. Because this is an integral part of getting older. There are all sorts of things that you're more likely to succumb to or die from as you get older. I'll defer to our resident GP, but as you go through each cinquennial point over 50 (51, 56, 61, 66 ..) you get from your GP "Well, Mr.laforet, now you're over 50/55/60/65 .. you should expect [x] to be a problem. Covid19 is just another one to add to the list.

I read a good article about 'flu and the Spanish Flu written by a GP who said 'A really bad bout of the flu is most young people's first intimation of mortality'. My comment was aimed at pointing out that for the 50-59 group and especially the 60+ the first reaction to a probable Covid-19 diagnosis is going to be to get the right treatment ASAP, rather than escaping their holiday location. Obviously, for those is 'safer' age groups under 50, it will be more a case of 'how can I get home as quickly as possible?'


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 1-08-20 21:45; edited 5 times in total
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Scarlet wrote:
...I think your numbers may be a little pessimistic there. No demographic has a 20% fatality rate Shocked

Yes it does.... without CoViD-19, people aged around 91. And with it, given that mortality rates with the virus roughly double, those aged around 86. Admittedly there aren't that many skiers in those demographics - but there are a few!
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@ecureuil, Alright, but as far as I can see, only just and not universally. Certainly not for those in their 50s and 60s.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Evening meal probably most problematic aspect.
Self cater and cook your own?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Kramer wrote:


What we see with Coronavirus, that we don't see with other respiratory viruses, is these superspreader events, when one person can infect ~50 other people at one event. The common factor for these events are that they're crowded, closed spaces with close contact.

Just to be clear, the situation may well have changed very much by the time we get to winter. But medically speaking, making any firm plans at the moment, would be foolish.


Interesting to have your view - so the full social bash is potentially out regardless but what about the strictly small number trip? Too many risks with enclosed spaces like in particular gondolas?

I'm trying to get my head round whether there is a mitigated way of doing thing with self drive. Try to avoid bubbles. Eat only on outside decks. Small pensions to stay in. Evening meal probably most problematic aspect.


Basically it all depends on the baseline level of risk. If 1 in 2000 people have got it, getting in a crowded 200 person cable car may or may not be deemed acceptable. However if 1 in 200 people have got it, your calculation may change. Similarly if it’s rising or falling from those numbers.

What we also have to consider is the possibility of having to quarantine on our way back. It depends whether that’s a deal breaker for you?

What level of risk we personally find acceptable is to me a matter of personal choice, as long as we’re not doing things that cause excessive risk to those around us. But at the moment I’d say it’s imposssible to make that assessment six months out, and thus risky to commit to firm plans.
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Mid mid-July the authorities did a point estimate of the IFR in the Stockholm region at 0.6%. For the age group 0–69 years, the IFR is 0.1%, and for those of age 70 years or older we get an estimate of 4.3%.

I could look at the stats for how many in the 0-69 year group have been hospitalised or needed ICU care in Stockholm region, but I think compared to the number of cases (confirmed and especially not confirmed) I guess it’s extremely low.
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achilles wrote:
unless I contracted CV19. Which begs the question, what happens if I do?



how do you know you have Covid-19?
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davidof wrote:
achilles wrote:
unless I contracted CV19. Which begs the question, what happens if I do?



how do you know you have Covid-19?


For 1 week holidaymakers I think that's the key issue - although does depend of countries' individual requirements for pre travel testing which may or may not emerge in the future. I think if you are well when going on holiday then either you get sick enough that you need medical attention in which case better hope you took out decent insurance for all that follows ( or that BoJo in his wisdom decides that UK citizens deserve to have the continued use of EHIC rolling eyes -don't hold your breath - in fact as the OP actively voted to get rid of EHIC that's on him) or you don't in which you are therefore in a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. The chances of randon police or mairie "raids" testing innocent holidaymakers against their will seems remote.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
You need decent insurance if you are skiing anywhere in the world (except the UK). EHIC is a red herring touted by desperate remainiacs.
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mitcva wrote:
EHIC is a red herring ...
Why's that?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/jan/09/ski-insurance-dont-cut-corners

https://www.european-health-card.co.uk/am-i-covered-by-my-ehic-during-the-ski-season
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
mitcva wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/jan/09/ski-insurance-dont-cut-corners

https://www.european-health-card.co.uk/am-i-covered-by-my-ehic-during-the-ski-season
EHIC covered my hospital bills in Austria when I had an accident a few years ago. Clearly not a red herring. It doesn't cover every conceivable loss, of course, so the transport to hospital was covered by my insurance.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
mitcva wrote:
https://www.european-health-card.co.uk/am-i-covered-by-my-ehic-during-the-ski-season
By the way, there's something a bit fishy about the website you linked to. It appears to be charging people to apply for an EHIC card, which would be a scam.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
mitcva wrote:
You need decent insurance if you are skiing anywhere in the world (except the UK). EHIC is a red herring touted by desperate remainiacs.


Only a red herring to the economically illiterate. Leavers assured us immediately following the referendum that EHIC would never be in jeopardy as it was entirely separate from the EU so they aren't best placed to lecture everyone. Ask yourself the question why is European travel insurance priced so affordably and why is it an important condition of all policies that teh holder ahs and uses where possible a valid EHIC? Then consider not who picks up the tab on the minor sniffles and sprains seen by private clinics but the major medical interventions required.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

You need decent insurance if you are skiing anywhere in the world (except the UK). EHIC is a red herring touted by desperate remainiacs.

@mitcva, Still maintaining that Leave was a good thing? I'm yet to hear any Leaver come up with any sane excuse as to why it is a good idea, more normal to hear the gebbut excuses pouring out, perhaps you are different?......spare me the insults btw simply answer the question why EHIC is a red herring to start with please, i'm intrigued.
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Losers united?
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mitcva wrote:
Losers united?
Sad.
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Currently in Mayrhofen, and must be peak summer season, it is packed. Face masks required in shops and gondolas and compliance is extremely high, bars and restaurants operating completely as normal with no evident additional social distancing or precautions other than abundant hand sanitiser. Covid group anxiety seems close to zero. It will be interesting to see what happens to the infection rate in the Ziller Valley as a study case over the following weeks.

So far I have heard two people coughing which seems very low, I think lock down has really diminished common colds etc. Both were serving staff.

As 57 and 60 year olds we are not concerned about catching covid again but will isolate for a week or so on return to minimise the risk to others.

It seems likely to me that most travellers aren't likely to know they have cought it till they get home.
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JimboS wrote:
Covid group anxiety seems close to zero. It will be interesting to see what happens to the infection rate in the Ziller Valley as a study case over the following weeks.

Welcome to Austria. It's been fine for the last month, but we shall see if that changes.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
mitcva wrote:
EHIC is a red herring touted by desperate remainiacs.


EHIC paid out around £1500 of my wife's bill from her skiing accident in March. You're saying that that portion will still be paid by the UK Government in the future? Or don't you know but are just hoping it will? Or feel it's a Price Worth Paying for exiting the EU? If it has to be covered entirely by private health insurance then premiums will go up for European travel. Won't they?

It's a valid question. I don't see why it's a Leave/Remain issue. We've left, so that argument's over. I don't see why the reply needs to be derogatory. Just tell us your analysis ....


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Mon 3-08-20 16:44; edited 1 time in total
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@Scarlet, thanks, been a fantastic scorcher of a week as usual, even the forecast rain for today didn't start till after 4pm. Heading home tomorrow.
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LaForet wrote:
Just tell us your analysis ....
Why analyse when you can just throw out some cliched insults? Ain't that what social media is for?
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LaForet wrote:


EHIC paid out around £1500 of my wife's bill from her skiing accident in March. You're saying that that portion will still be paid by the UK Government in the future? Or don't you know but are just hoping it will? Or feel it's a Price Worth Paying for exiting the EU? If it has to be covered entirely by private health insurance then premiums will go up for European travel. Won't they?

It's a valid question. I don't see why it's a Leave/Remain issue. We've left, so that argument's over. I don't see why the reply needs to be derogatory. Just tell us your analysis ....

Also, if you have an existing condition, which wasn't an issue with EHIC, you will either not get coverage, or be hit with a very high premium.
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the village idiot wrote:
EHIC is a red herring touted by desperate remainiacs.

Desperate for what, I wonder? The return of our free pan-European health insurance system would be a fine thing, but not something anyone's likely to be "desperate" about.
The UK's left the EU - we have to face up to the consequences of that. Repeated childish denials of reality get you nowhere, as Mr Trump is learning.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
Also, if you have an existing condition, which wasn't an issue with EHIC, you will either not get coverage, or be hit with a very high premium.
This is something my parents are beginning to discover. They spend about 12 weeks a year in Spain and have been looking at annual insurance as their renewal is due. Both are 78 and have pre-existing conditions, heart-related & asthma. Previously getting insurance wasn't too difficult, just a health screening and a modest additional premium, but now they are having a bit of difficulty in finding an insurer. Most cite Brexit uncertainty and are therefore not prepared to offer cover if pre-existing conditions need insurance, although a couple of companies that have quoted are in the region of 4 times more expensive than what my parents have paid over the last few years.

Red herring? A truly dumb thing to say rolling eyes
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
Also, if you have an existing condition, which wasn't an issue with EHIC, you will either not get coverage, or be hit with a very high premium.
This is something my parents are beginning to discover. They spend about 12 weeks a year in Spain and have been looking at annual insurance as their renewal is due. Both are 78 and have pre-existing conditions, heart-related & asthma. Previously getting insurance wasn't too difficult, just a health screening and a modest additional premium, but now they are having a bit of difficulty in finding an insurer. Most cite Brexit uncertainty and are therefore not prepared to offer cover if pre-existing conditions need insurance, although a couple of companies that have quoted are in the region of 4 times more expensive than what my parents have paid over the last few years.

Red herring? A truly dumb thing to say rolling eyes

In case it's of use: https://boughtbymany.com/news/article/getting-medical-conditions-travel-insurance/
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Old Fartbag wrote:
In case it's of use: https://boughtbymany.com/news/article/getting-medical-conditions-travel-insurance/
Many thanks, will forward to my father.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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philwig wrote:
the village idiot wrote:
EHIC is a red herring touted by desperate remainiacs.

Desperate for what, I wonder?

Desperation of the leavers instead?
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I'm not sure anyone outside of Government really knows but I suspect that EHIC will continue exactly as is (which is the case for other non-EU countries like Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Switzerland), or some similar reciprocal health agreements will be put in place for countries UK citizens habitually travel to like France, Spain etc along the lines of those agreements with Australia and NZ (although they do not cover pre-existing conditions, unlike EHIC)

What you have to remember is that the NHS actually gets billed for treatment given abroad under EHIC. This isn't something the Europeans do for us for free out of kindness in case you are trying to engineer some kind of warped remain/leave argument. We pay for it, it’s a business, sense should prevail (oh gee what have I just said?)

The last year I can find numbers for was 2015:

Quote:
In 2015, EEA countries and Switzerland claimed against the NHS for over £674 million of costs of treating people from the UK overseas. In the same year, the NHS claimed for £50 million of equivalent costs for treating EEA and Swiss citizens in the UK.
More details here: https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/

On that basis the cost of being in EHIC is already factored in by the Treasury so I cannot sensibly see why it wouldn't continue.

Without EHIC being there, the insurers would have to find that £674m plus inflation plus admin costs among the roughly 30m travellers (call it £30 per head + tax) - it will mean some big premium hikes, especially for older travellers because age is the number one risk factor, and you can bet even more people will travel uninsured. Any Government hoping to be popular won't mess with EHIC if they can help it, in my humble opinion.
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Pruman wrote:


On that basis the cost of being in EHIC is already factored in by the Treasury so I cannot sensibly see why it wouldn't continue.

Without EHIC being there, the insurers would have to find that £674m plus inflation plus admin costs among the roughly 30m travellers (call it £30 per head + tax) - it will mean some big premium hikes, especially for older travellers because age is the number one risk factor, and you can bet even more people will travel uninsured. Any Government hoping to be popular won't mess with EHIC if they can help it, in my humble opinion.


so you are saying that the treasury can save around 650 million per year by scrapping EHIC. Hmmmm I can see which way that will go.
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@Pruman, This Govt appears to be ideologically driven and playing to their hardcore supporters - hence opting out of any scheme that has anything to do with the EU eg. Ventilator procurement/Pandemic early warning/Vaccine procurement....and I suspect EHIC will be similar.

At the minute, there seems very little cooperation happening with the Brexit negotiation - and for things like EHIC to continue, the relationship between the two sides would have to dramatically and quickly improve.
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The Government website at the moment advises quite clearly that there will be no EHIC after 31.12.20 - and emphasises the need to take out personal travel cover and to make sure pre-existing conditions are included in that cover.

I don't have any confidence that the Government will continue the EHIC arrangement in any form. Letting it lapse will transfer that £674m in charges to the individual traveller, at a time when public funds will be under extreme pressure. The warning signs of this will be when we start to see soundbites around "Why should the UK taxpayer fund the bill for people on holiday in the EU when they fall ill?" and "If you've got a chronic condition, why should the taxpayer underwrite your Euro holiday jaunt?" - to be dismissed as the urban elite whinging about losing subsidised ski holiday insurance.

As rob@rar mentions, the transfer of liability to the traveller is already happening. So clearly the insurance indsutry is alreay assuming that the Govt policy will be as stated on its advisory pages: i.e. don't expect the EHIC to continue after 2020.

I'm guessing that the judgement will be that anyone 60+ who can afford to go skiing, and/or has property abroad, and already forks out £350 for their couples annual insurance can absorb this doubling or even tripling . People will moan but not a lot of votes to be lost. And for those younger travellers whose premium goes from, say, £150/year to £250 the same will apply.

Expect a lot more Internet Appeals along the lines of '40 YO John's family are launching an appeal after a heart attack left him with French ICU bills of £100K - his insurers are rejecting the claim because they say he had a pre-existing condition they weren't informed of' "We're devastated" said his wife, Janet. "He'd been to see his GP about chest pains but it didn't seem serious. Somehow they got hold of his records and now we'll have to sell everything." 'The couple are lobbying for some sort of reciprocal health arrangement with countries like Spain and France.' ....


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 3-08-20 22:33; edited 2 times in total
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davidof wrote:
so you are saying that the treasury can save around 650 million per year by scrapping EHIC. Hmmmm I can see which way that will go.
Indeed. Stick it to the EU and save £650 million. What's not to like...
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The UK recovers only a fraction of the costs to the NHS of treating overseas citizens here. Given the strains on public finances - especially the NHS - you have to wonder if a government with an 80-seat majority, a healthy poll lead and another four years to go might be tempted to sort this out sooner rather than later.

One of the issues is that our NHS is free to patients and very comprehensive, whereas in most EU countries the patient is expected to contribute and the free services are more limited. In that sense, the deal is not truly reciprocal.

And EHIC won't get you off the mountain, or get you on a flight home. EHIC is no substitute for good winter sports insurance. Read some of the horror stories on this forum.

I think there is a good possibility there will be some sort of EHIC continuation for the UK. I personally hope so. If not, insurance costs in general are bound to go up, because the cheaper insurance policies currently rely on the availability of EHIC-funded public facilities to offset some of their private medical cost risks. That's why they insist you have your EHIC card on you, and will wriggle out of the policy contract if you don't.

But having said this, I don't see more expensive (if better?) insurance as being a key factor in discouraging most forms of ski tourism. It will rank far behind many other factors, given that skiing is a relatively expensive holiday anyway. And of course EHIC doesn't even exist in some of the more expensive destinations, such as North America and Japan.
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But aren't the majority of the EHIC charge-backs to the NHS going to occur anyway, whether the person is in the UK or abroad? Yes, some of the EHIC costs are related to accidents that wouldn't have happened if the person was in the UK. But a lot of it must be people needing hospital treatment because they've just been unlucky enough for their illness to get serious at that particular time e.g. they'd have had that heart attack in the UK if they hadn't been in France at the time. So dropping the EHIC is really a good wheeze for any Government - a way by which an illness that would have been treated by the NHS at home is treated by the French/Swiss/Austrian healthcare system at the insurer's expense - ultimately by the patient (or their employer if on a short EU business trip/assignment).

So the only way that I can see the EHIC persisting is if there is some greater saving or benefit to the UK against which it is balanced. Ideally something high profile, like fishing rights. So the EU agrees to absorb EHIC costs to some ceiling (say, £400m) in return for some fishing quota concessions worth, say £400m .... Cue huge tabloid headlines about 'battering the EU's fish' and the Govt gets points for preserving the EHIC and everyone's happy ....
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rob@rar wrote:
davidof wrote:
so you are saying that the treasury can save around 650 million per year by scrapping EHIC. Hmmmm I can see which way that will go.
Indeed. Stick it to the EU and save £650 million. What's not to like...


Is it Brits abroad needing a lot of hospital treatment, or the NHS rubbish at claiming back from other countries?
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Themasterpiece wrote:
Is it Brits abroad needing a lot of hospital treatment, or the NHS rubbish at claiming back from other countries?
Don't know about the former point, but I suspect that there aren't good procedures in place for the routine processing of claims by NHS hospitals under the EHIC scheme. I've been in two French public hospitals, both had payment offices which were involved in the discharge process, the same at one Austrian hospital. I've never seen a payment office in an NHS hospital.

If a non-UK resident has an accident which requires, for example, admission to A&E, x-rays, fractures being set and plastered, are they simply discharged at the end of the process, or is there some identity check and confirmation of liability so that funds can be claimed back under EHIC?
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