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So what happens if skiers contract CV19 on holiday?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I am thinking about skiing next year in France, staying at a hotel - assuming the UK and French governments are OK with that when I set off. I can cope with having to isolate if need be when I return. Even if the situation worsens during the course of the holiday, I think it very unlikely that I would be barred from return travel, unless I contracted CV19. Which begs the question, what happens if I do?

Where would I self isolate?
Would my condition be monitored- if so by whom?
Who would decide if I needed hospital treatment?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Surely you decide if you need hospital treatment?

The rest who knows - your hotel would be the logical location. Perhaps you should clarify in advance that they would not turf you out if you needed to overstay for mandated reasons if you are worried about being on the streets. The monitoring anywhere will depend on govt policy.

Your concerns are however a reason many seem to be thinking of driving next season - more autonomy and an escape route...
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Surely you decide if you need hospital treatment?


I doubt it. It is not so in the UK.

Quote:
The rest who knows - your hotel would be the logical location. Perhaps you should clarify in advance that they would not turf you out if you needed to overstay for mandated reasons if you are worried about being on the streets.


Well, I haven't sounded out the hotel, but I rather doubt that it would wish to harbour a known COVID 19 patient, don't you? I wondered if anyone actually knew what the score was for people caught like that in the Alps, and particularly in France.

Quote:
The monitoring anywhere will depend on govt policy.


Thanks for that. But how is that working out in France?

Quote:
Your concerns are however a reason many seem to be thinking of driving next season - more autonomy and an escape route...


Hmm. So do a runner if you have it. I bet that is against government policy - and if travelling solo, it begs the question if one is fit to drive.

To me it is beginning to look like if you don't have your own accommodation, don't go.

Still time for the situation to settle, I suppose.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I suspect that a doctor would decide if hospital treatment is needed, but the patient would decide if they needed to see a doctor
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My thoughts would be:

- Make sure Insurance covers C19, as EHIC will likely not be available

- If you catch C19 while staying in a Hotel - the likelihood is the whole Hotel would be locked down

- If I go, it will be with a TO for several reasons:

i) There is a Rep to help out if necessary
ii) I asked Crystal what would happen if the resort/hotel got locked down and I was stuck there for a week or two. I was told that they would "almost certainly" be responsible for their clients and getting them home - but would check with their legal dept.

- You would likely self isolate in your room

- You would trigger the decision to get checked out. The Doctor would decide what would happen from there.

- Further action (or not) would depend on how disease progressed and whether hospital admission was necessary.

I started this thread to discuss how people are approaching this: https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=153053#4623327


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 29-07-20 9:26; edited 2 times in total
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
...The rest who knows ... Your concerns are however a reason many seem to be thinking of driving next season - more autonomy and an escape route...

+1.
But even such an escape route might still have restrictions. If say through good luck the UK manages to eradicate the virus while it still exists in Europe* I could envisage a New Zealand style quarantine being introduced to prevent reintroduction, i.e. compulsory isolation in a government facility, rather than at home - certainly for anyone testing positive at the border.

*I don't think this is very likely
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@achilles, I don’t think you’re on your own, others might have similar queries. Drive - then you can get out as soon as you feel like you’ve got symptoms, otherwise you’re stuck.

My personal view is that they’ll want you out of the hotel pretty damn quickly. I was in Austria in March and Covid was like the plague, word travels fast and it’s not a great stigma to have that one of your residents may be positive. The police turned up at our hotel and effectively house arrested one guy with a cold, he subsequently turned out to be negative but it wasn’t pleasant and the owner wasn’t happy with him being there.

My personal view is that next season won’t be as we know it and it will be hugely curtailed.
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Quote:

Hmm. So do a runner if you have it. I bet that is against government policy - and if travelling solo, it begs the question if one is fit to drive.

You have to drive to Barnard Castle to test if you are fit to drive. At which point it is not against UK government policy
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Same as already happened last season. Severe cases were sent to isolation units in hospitals. More mild cases were isolated in their accommodation. Without adequate insurance it would be a very costly situation.
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If the next season is, then it will clearly not be similar to previous years. Now everything will change (
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johnE wrote:
Quote:

Hmm. So do a runner if you have it. I bet that is against government policy - and if travelling solo, it begs the question if one is fit to drive.

You have to drive to Barnard Castle to test if you are fit to drive. At which point it is not against UK government policy


Firstly I don't have a co-driver to take over if I am not up to it. Secondly (I have checked) the distance from Les Deux Alpes to the East Midlands is a tad further than Durham to Barnard Castle. Let's keep this thread on topic
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Interesting question - if there is to be any sort of a ski season then there would need to be quarantine hotels set-aside in resorts for those with mild symptoms. Even with insurance covering repatriation etc would be a delay of a day or two

With a potential 5 drivers in the family, I would be tempted to make a dash for home.
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holidayloverxx wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, I suspect that a doctor would decide if hospital treatment is needed, but the patient would decide if they needed to see a doctor


Yes that it is the longhand for what I meant i.e. it is folly to suggest anyone else will be sufficiently in the granular detail of potential cases to make better decisions about asking for treatment than the patient themselves - it is perhaps a valid question for anyone travelling or living solo as it any severe illness or event - if they are unconsious or paralyzed no one is in a position to call for help and then you probably rely on the cleaner finding you. I don't think COVID is unique here and AIUI onset is not ususally immediate to the fullest extent.
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You know it makes sense.
Quote:

With a potential 5 drivers in the family, I would be tempted to make a dash for home.



Just a thought - The other 4 happy to spend the journey time cooked up in a car with you all the way back, with symptoms? In reality I think there'll be test stations locally and you'd be sent straight there, if positive placed straight into isolation, not a great position to be in without EHIC? I personally think numbers may be massively curtailed next season, I for one can't afford to be in that position and if no vaccine, we'd probably bin next season for this very reason.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I knew you were posh, you've got a cleaner eh?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
achilles wrote:


Hmm. So do a runner if you have it. I bet that is against government policy - and if travelling solo, it begs the question if one is fit to drive.

To me it is beginning to look like if you don't have your own accommodation, don't go.

Still time for the situation to settle, I suppose.


No I wasn't suggest doing a runner but if you are suggesting your hotel would be so unscrupulous as to turf you out in the alpine cold and being then a plague victim you couldn't find anywhere else (perhaps the local authorities might designate sports halls etc as plague centres) then your own vehicle at least provides somewhere sheltered to sleep. And if it comes to it that the combination of bureaucracy and others' self interest did leave me homeless I wouldn't have any guilt about doing a runner - while travelling as ethically as I could (of which my own vehicle is about the most ethical I can think of in avoiding contact with others). If I'm well enough to drive I can drve, if I'm not well enough then frankly I'm probably appraoching a state when I should be under medical supervision anyway.

I'm unclear about the circumstances one can be definitely COVID positive in a one week holiday such that the no-man's land scenario would arise. That would seem to suggest timely testing on arrival at accommodation with timely turnaround time. If a government is geared up enough to be doing that then they also should be making provision or law for what happens with people they test +ve


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 29-07-20 10:56; edited 1 time in total
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Markymark29 wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, I knew you were posh, you've got a cleaner eh?
Only in a hotel and even then I try not to subject them to the carnage on a daily basis wink
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There is so much we don't know about what will be happening in 5 - 8 months time. It scarcely makes any sense to make financial commitments now unless you can afford to junk them. Like my absurdly cheap return flight to Geneva, cost about fourpence, including checked baggage. Which cheered me up on the lock-down day I bought it, and was a lot cheaper than the goodies I ordered from Waitrose.

I wouldn't go without EHIC and we don't know about that yet, do we?

If there's lots of good skiing and sensible arrangements I suspect there'll be last minute availability for folk who are flexible - and preferably self-driving. I'd certainly not leave myself at the mercy of a tour operator.

This is a challenging situation for those who are chronic bookers-ahead and can't cope with uncertainty!
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Quote:

if you are suggesting your hotel would be so unscrupulous as to turf you out in the alpine cold

@Dave of the Marmottes, I'd think that's eactly what most places would do, they have a duty of care to other guests and staff, and their business would plummet if word got out that there was someone in the hotel isolating, for that reason alone I think they'd want the person out. In Austria end March the police were visiting all suspected CV-19 people in hotels and making arrangements for them to be moved on via ambulance, I don't think it'd be any different next season personally, it's a high risk strategy skiing next season unless things change dramatically IMV.
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@Markymark29, but they were moved on to somewhere via ambulance presumably not just dumped by a roadside. As above something has to flex - you can't want and seek tourists for the sake of your economy, then mandatorily test them then totally abandon those who fail.
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Part of the problem last season was that people travelled around without knowledge that they had been infected. Those that were tested and found to be positive were dealt with accordingly. But from the investigations into the Ischgl outbreak it is very clear that people travelled to Ischgl already carrying the virus, potentially from Italy, and that many people took the virus home with them.

I envisage next season having much tighter testing protocols, with people needing a negative test prior to travel and/or testing on arrival.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I suspect in Austria it will be Vienna making the rules nationally rather than the Tirol etc and they will likely test and refuse entry imv. It was Kurz who closed down the country without hesitation 13th March not the Gemeinde's making local arrangements, and Vienna is a long way from the ski tourist world, they are a wealthy country governed a long way from the mountains and don't likely need the risk, and will again control centrally. I'd think they wouldn't think too long about doing the same again at short notice. They had very little empathy towards tourists last time when we were evacuated, and I don't see why next year would be any different. The Austrian government were quick to blame ski tourists last time for the high levels of outbreak in Austria, Ischgl for example was the epicentre according to the Austrian media, Norwegan and other ski-tourists the source, and will be very risk adverse next season imv. I think we will be living in different times from now on, and the ski tourist will need to be prepared on entry, and if becoming ill have good insurance or deep pockets.

France may well be different, they have a more liberal and localised approach to governance but even there it was only a week after Austria that they went into lockdown, and again i'd be surprised if they don't have plans in place for getting people out asap if an outbreak is imminent. Once out you'll be on your own.

In any event yes they'd ship you into the local hospital for sure, but in a post-Brexit world things will sadly be different.
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I suspect many skiers who feel a bit ill on holiday will:

1- Keep skiing, while promising themselves that they will get tested once back in the UK

2- Forget about getting tested once back in the UK

The real battle is vs human nature...
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Just as an illustration. Mask wearing in the lifts and queues in L2A this summer is obligatory. During our first week, there were at least 2 people in every cabin who removed their masks. The lifties had to constantly harass the people in the queues.

During the second week, they began visually inspecting each cabin at the mid station for mask wearing. Within a day, the non-mask wearers had evolved to replace their masks for the 30 s inspection, before immediately removing them...
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My guess is that the ski resort model will have to evolve before winter, with an active attempt to keep C19 out by testing. This might be enforced testing by TOs, hotels etc on arrival?
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I assume that once you test positive, you will already have been carrying, and thus infectious for some days already, as symptoms only appear after what 5 days? A hotel turfing you out then would be shutting the door after the virus has bolted. I think that changes the picture a bit as to the rights of the hotel to do that. Chuck you out maybe but they'd still have to quarantine other guests. And what if some of them test positive? Chuck them out as well? I don't see it.
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@JamesHJ, of course that's what will happen in practice just as people have dealt with minor complaints on holiday as long as holidays have existed.

I used to think testing was a good thing for an individual. Now unless it is for clinical treatment I think it has only the potential for downside to that individual.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@JamesHJ
I used to think testing was a good thing for an individual. Now unless it is for clinical treatment I think it has only the potential for downside to that individual.


I'm not sure that I understand that? Do you mean "don't ask questions which might have bad answers" sort of thing? How does not testing fit with collective responsibllity?
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@Orange200, It'd not be the hotels turfing them out, they would likely be instructed to inform the police and then its out of their hands. Believe me it was pretty scary stuff, we witnessed it first hand on the day of the evacuation in St Anton 13th March - the police were everywhere and visited our hotel at breakfast time like a swat team and impounded the guy to his room waiting for a ambulance to come, there was shouting and its was all pretty unsavoury. By the time the ambulance came, us and the other hotel guests were long gone, all of us, we all moved out ourselves. It kind of focuses the mind. The irony was all he had apparently was a cold, for about 2-3 hours he was public enemy #1 around there by the police. The town was desetred by 7pm, we were all bussed out to Zurich and Landeck and the town was sealed off via police roadblocks.

I agree with comments above, I think testing will be mandatory on entry.
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Markymark29 wrote:
....
I agree with comments above, I think testing will be mandatory on entry.


Reduces the risk, but does not eliminate it (one may be in the early stages of infection, and thus pass the test).
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 Poster: A snowHead
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achilles wrote:
Markymark29 wrote:
....
I agree with comments above, I think testing will be mandatory on entry.


Reduces the risk, but does not eliminate it (one may be in the early stages of infection, and thus pass the test).


That's good right? It is all about making the probability of sustained community transmission (in resort) small by multiplying small probabilities together. E.g. 0.5 % chance of infected visitors missed x 10 % chance of them infecting someone outside their group = very small number.

Testing on entry to resort seems (?) an easy way to reduce the chance of community transmission by a very large factor. Fortunately, ski resorts are ideal places to isolate like this as well (who ever leaves resort during a 1-2 week holiday?). Actually, I can see returning groups being a bigger problem for e.g. the UK.
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@achilles, Nothing can eliminate it can it? It's just one of a series of things that will likely be done as a precaution at point of entry. That said the more I think about it imo there's too many inherent risks - flights/ transfers, lift queues, restaurants, gondolas, chairs with bubbles down, ski buses, supermarkets, idiots refusing to wear masks......the whole thing is a potential mine-field, and its hard to think how it can be managed effectively and still allow people to enjoy their experience. If one has a appartment, can drive to resort and go ski touring, and picnic on the slopes and can thus be assured it's safe then happy days, the rest of us mere mortals are going to struggle I'd think. Just hope they find a vaccine soon.
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Quote:

(who ever leaves resort during a 1-2 week holiday?)

Apart from going down to Bourg st Maurice on the funicular for example. Or, as advocated a lot elsewhere on this forum, staying outside of the resort and driving/getting the bus/getting a major lift into the ski resort.
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Agreed it does not eliminate the risk.

And what happens if someone tests positive on entry? At an airport it would be irresponsible to put them on the next plane back home. And if checks are added at internal Schengen borders, does it mean that people could be refused entry to say Austria - when they don't have anywhere to isolate in Germany - and have to drive back to the UK (crossing further borders ...)?
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@Markymark29, the answer to that is it depends!
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johnE wrote:
Quote:

(who ever leaves resort during a 1-2 week holiday?)

Apart from going down to Bourg st Maurice on the funicular for example. Or, as advocated a lot elsewhere on this forum, staying outside of the resort and driving/getting the bus/getting a major lift into the ski resort.


All good points! A more refined version of my question is perhaps, what proportion of tourists leave the resort during a holiday? Note that I don't know the answer, but speculate that again it is a small fraction? A small fraction will mean a small increase in risk of transmission by this route.


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 29-07-20 18:04; edited 1 time in total
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JamesHJ wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@JamesHJ
I used to think testing was a good thing for an individual. Now unless it is for clinical treatment I think it has only the potential for downside to that individual.


I'm not sure that I understand that? Do you mean "don't ask questions which might have bad answers" sort of thing? How does not testing fit with collective responsibllity?


I said for that individual not collective/society. Having an X against one in some of the scenarios we are exploring could see one in some quasi-jail or refugee camp or at the very least racking up significant personal expense (because if you are the approved quarantine hotel why wouldn't you jack up your rates to exploit the captive market?) So why volunteer for that risk for some societal good? Fair enough if there are clear and acceptable outcomes if you are positive (like it is illegal for the hotel to evict you for 14 days). Collective responsibility vs personal cost/sacrifice is an equation that breaks down differently for everyone. As we know for some (e.g. public litterers) it takes very little to outweigh the collective responsibility (literally the inconvenience of holding onto litter until you find a bin).
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
JamesHJ wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@JamesHJ
I used to think testing was a good thing for an individual. Now unless it is for clinical treatment I think it has only the potential for downside to that individual.


I'm not sure that I understand that? Do you mean "don't ask questions which might have bad answers" sort of thing? How does not testing fit with collective responsibllity?


I said for that individual not collective/society. Having an X against one in some of the scenarios we are exploring could see one in some quasi-jail or refugee camp or at the very least racking up significant personal expense (because if you are the approved quarantine hotel why wouldn't you jack up your rates to exploit the captive market?) So why volunteer for that risk for some societal good? Fair enough if there are clear and acceptable outcomes if you are positive (like it is illegal for the hotel to evict you for 14 days). Collective responsibility vs personal cost/sacrifice is an equation that breaks down differently for everyone. As we know for some (e.g. public litterers) it takes very little to outweigh the collective responsibility (literally the inconvenience of holding onto litter until you find a bin).


Thanks for the clarification. Much to mull over indeed. The winners in all of this will be the businesses/resorts which can put together a detailed, risked, and costed plan, which is acceptable to insurers and travellers. I am not sure if all the talk of 'home brew' holidays and driving to the alps will be a good idea in the end. Interesting times...
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UK PM Johnson's new Government strategy is to eradicate the virus and as an Island Nation (like NZ) this is entirely feasible and should of been the British Strategy from the GetGo .

For this reason I expect Ski Country Europe to be declared Non Essential/Do NOT travel for UK Residents and to come into effect by the end of the year.

This will mean any Travel Insurance will become invalid..and effectively condemn any travel.

3rd Party Insurance is a legal requirement in many EU Countries at ALL TIMES.


The British Government will not be able to cope with a second repatriation/medical situation, etc at the same time as coping with the fallout from a NO Trade Deal (Ports etc)..

Schengen/Frontex will be in full swing January 1st so if you are already in the EU jumping quarantine & fines will be at your own risk, especially for future trips to the EU.

Therefore the OP Title (So what happens if skiers contract CV19 on holiday?) is largely irrelevant as UK Residents will ny ot be able to leave the the UK

If your committing money to Ski TRips/Holidays now you may as well give it to a good cause Charity as it will have more use.

Stay at Home 2020/2021..
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JamesHJ wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. Much to mull over indeed. The winners in all of this will be the businesses/resorts which can put together a detailed, risked, and costed plan, which is acceptable to insurers and travellers. I am not sure if all the talk of 'home brew' holidays and driving to the alps will be a good idea in the end. Interesting times...


I don't think anyone will get close in a proper risk plan that can be effectively marketed - in effect holidaymakers will be taking a risk that their resort/accomodation doesn't get shut down and even communes themsleves won't be able to control when national govt steps in. Home brew holidaymakers in SC appartments with their own car at least control as many variables as is possible rather than relying on others to make good/sensible policy and decisions e.g. TO plan - "kettle all guests in their hotel to the end of week then ship them out on buses/planes as normal", Home brew plan - "resort is closing. Oh well we give up a few nights acccomodation and drive home at leisure". But I also think some of this is unduly pessimistic at the moment - we aren't seeing beach resorts being shut down yet in Europe, if that continues for the summer why beyond colder temps and less al fresco dining should that make ski resorts objectively that much more of a risk?
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