 Poster: A snowHead
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Up until the mid-late 00s, didn't know anything about what bootfitting was. I got by.
First pair of boots I had fitted - at a well-recommended bootfitter outfit somewhere in France: the absolute worst bootfitting result I ever had. I literally (and I do mean literally) had to stop in the middle of epic runs and cry out in pain. I went back and another guy at the same outfit glued bits of foam to the outside of the inners. The only problem was that the bits of foam were about the size of a fingernail. Guess what...they became instant pressure points on the next run. The fact that the guy said he'd been working in bootfitting for a week, coming from a bike repair shop, should have tipped me off. (He also shaved off lots of plastic from one of the boot tongues, making that one far softer than the other).
Later a shop in Morzine put some proper foam around the heel pocket. Finally I could ski the boots. That was a helpful bootfitter.
Next pair of boots, bought from Alber in St Anton. Nice service, good boots but I eventually had to get foam-injected inners to be able to ski them comfortably (for some reason, don't remember why, I got the inners at Jennewein).
Next pair of boots, tried to get them from Jennewein, but they recommended me everything and nothing, and didn't have in stock several models I wanted to try. So, back to Alber. They recommend me two models, one is ok, my feet go to sleep in the other. I ask for a third model. They say it's unlikely to work. I try it anyway. Seems to fit really well. I decide to buy them. I end up loving these boots (ok, I did go back three times to fix niggles, but I still love the boots and didn't need to replace the inners with heavy foam ones).
So...have I got really weird feet? (surprisingly, all the bootfitters said that's not the case...but my feet do cramp in the first 10 minutes when I play tennis). Have I just been unlucky? Am I doing something wrong?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 6-06-20 11:35; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| horizon wrote: |
| So...have I got really weird feet? (surprisingly, all the bootfitters said that's not the case...but my feet do cramp in the first 10 minutes when I play tennis). Have I just been unlucky? Am I doing something wrong? |
I'm no expert but I wouldn't think ski boots were ideal footwear for tennis 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| horizon wrote: |
So...have I got really weird feet? (surprisingly, all the bootfitters said that's not the case...but my feet do cramp in the first 10 minutes when I play tennis). Have I just been unlucky? Am I doing something wrong? |
I've had very similar experiences - the first two pairs of boots I had properly fitted (by well regarded fitters, not Saturday shop kids) also had me stopping mid-run at times to open them up and save my feet.
I think for me tight calves and poor ankle mobility probably had a lot to do with it.
Also it's actually really hard (/impossible) for a bootfitter to communicate what properly-fitting boots should feel like, and then for the client to communicate back what they actually feel like, and to know if they are right or not. "Snug and supportive but not too tight." "Errr, I think so, maybe?." If you haven't already had boots that fit and know how they should feel, there's no real way to know if what you're feeling in the shop is right or not - and not really any way to give the fitter useful info to work with either.
These days I seem to have found a shell + liner combo that works for me, but I'm also a lot more conscious of mobility and stretching work, so it's hard to isolate exactly what made the difference. And I still have to be super careful to prevent blisters while touring in them, but that's another story...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| So...have I got really weird feet? (surprisingly, all the bootfitters said that's not the case... |
Perhaps you just ski weirdly?
While there are, of course, shops and outfits with reputations one way or the other, in my view it's the talent of the individual that is critical here.
For example, I wouldn't 'go to Ellis Brigham' for a bootfit however the guy I was recommended who worked at Ellis Brigham's Kensington store did a brilliant job.
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The dark art... And probably the most crucial piece of kit to get right for your skiing pleasure. However, I wonder if there is an element of user error, or lack of education in boot wearing?
I have no doubt that a good boot fitter is worth their weight in gold and can match shells to feet etc. Certainly, Mrs Franzer has had a very positive experience of this, albeit getting her existing boots tweaked to fit her properly after buying a pair from a larger store... Another story.
The person wearing the boot is the other side of this equation. There are a lot more variations in the person than the product and the perfect fit which was experienced in the shop can change when you get on the hill. Firstly, I'm sure everyone is buckling up in the correct order, every time, and seating their heels firmly into the back of the boot? Or maybe that should be further down the list?
I try hard (ok, not that hard) to get ski fit before my first trip of the season but it doesn't really work, does it?! I probably feel ok by day 3 or 4 and I will have had some discomfort in my feet and calves because that's just how it is. I will also have adjusted the buckles here and there through the day and left them looser than I expected. Subsequent trips will not be affected as much by this, especially if within a few weeks.
Then there is the buckling and the strap. Surely these properly fitted boots should be able to be cranked up to 11 and still be comfy?! For me, the buckles on the top of my foot do almost nothing. The tighter they get, the more blood supply they cut off with little appreciable benefit to performance. The lower calf buckle is the one that holds my heel in place and gives the most benefit. The top buckle gets done up as tight as possible whilst still keeping the blood supply going. Likewise, the strap.
Last season I changed the standard strap for a power strap. This is essentially an elasticated version of the standard strap, with different versions providing different springyness for varying weights and skiing styles. I found that it improved the performance of the boot whilst remaining looser than the non-springy, standard, version. Therefore, more comfortable.
My boots are 2014 season Atomic Redster Pro 120 and weren't 'properly' fitted but I tried two pairs out of the box and these felt more comfy. They were then heat moulded and fitted with custom foot beds. No more adjustment has been required apart from tweaking the buckles but I reckon they are getting worn out now, hence the power strap last year. I plan on getting the next pair done properly and am looking forward to the experience.
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Took me a couple of good professional boot fits to understand what a good fit should feel like. Current boots I bought off the internet. Swapped the footbeds from my previous boots into the new ones, skied them for a day (by which time they were killing me), took them into a shop and asked them to blow them out in one place on each boot and have been very happy with them for the last 4 years or so
I'm lucky in that I have never suffered from rubbing/blisters and the only weirdness is inflexible calves (which always leads to pain in the balls of my feet) and quite a high volume instep which means I never really need to do the buckles over the top of my foot
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
| Took me a couple of good professional boot fits to understand what a good fit should feel like. |
Same here. My first boots were bought from the hire shop at the end of a week when I found them the most comfortable I’d ever worn. Probably too big.
Second pair bought at the Earls Court ski show from the Snow&Rock stand at a 50% discount (anything suspicious yet?) for £199 I think. Crippled me.
Third pair from Profeet, fitted with custom footbed, and got around 10 years from them before something weird happened with the overlap on the R boot.
Fourth and current, from our very own @CEM. “Interview”, looked at and measured feet, proposed two possible models, shell checks, tried both out of the box, decision on the best one (didn’t make the mistake of mentioning the colours), footbed built, light stretch in a couple of spots, heat moulded, just felt right as soon as the fitting was done. 7 or 8 trips on I’m still very happy with them, put them on, heel back into pocket, clip up, don’t touch them until after last run. As I was describing my history and mentioned pair two (Salomon Force 9, bright yellow, red clips) Colin let slip that in his opinion they were the single worst boot Salomon ever produced!
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It's luck of the draw, I reckon: what shape of feet you're born with (and what you do with them over their years), what standard of bootfitter you get, where you live and what fitters exist anywhere near, what boots they stock and actually then have in stock (or can get in for you) in what size, what designs and shapes and volumes are available or in fashion that year...
I feel that I have had many years (almost all?) of my skiing 'career', such as it is, reduced in value by poor fitting boots - sometimes, or often, pain, a lot of over cranking, a lot of slopping around, banging ties, etc etc. A lot of wasted time, certainly. My narrow and small feet (and whatever other bits of my overall body design feeds into them) have never found their perfect boot yet. It's definitely held me back, not for want of trying to solve the issue, and, despite protestations from instructors, it's very difficult to apply proper technique and stance when you just can't feel right, or hold position right, in or because of your boots.
For me, it's been a very slow and very expensive learning process. I bought my first pair second hand, off EBay for £20 - way too big, but wearing 3 pairs of socks and a lot of diy padding and I reckon that they weren't too bad, actually, and I progressed quickly in them. Certainly were comfortable, and frankly probably a lot better or just as useful as the various expensive replacement 'properly fitted' or 'custom fit' boots and replacement foam and other liners which have since come and gone, along with their various forms of numbness and agony. Whilst still slopping around at the same time, of course...
Yes, finding a really good fitter has finally helped, but it's also, I feel, the gaining of my own knowledge and experience which has enabled me to research and feed back to him what I want, and to know if or when it might feel right or what else it needs.
Reasonably happy with my latest pair, together with yet more aftermarket liners, but still not 100%, still lots more to fiddle around with and try and adjust.
Never helped by only really being able to try/fit/adjust stuff at indoor domes or in shops - nowhere near replicating the day long outdoor conditions I want to play in properly or the way in which my feet then react.
I would say swap to snowboarding - but I've had more blisters and blackened toes there than in ski boots.
My feet just don't get on with most boots full stop (walking, mountaineering, bike... Nearly always issues).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Hells Bells, I did try on as many as I could find in the narrowest lasts possible, via every fitter and shop that I could access to try on different offerings and stocks (not, at the time, in the UK, a huge selection unfortunately). Remember at least 1, maybe more Langes (lv, certainly) but didn't feel so great given my need for a roomy /high toe box (sigh, another issue, and worse after my knee injuries - I 'windlass' a lot now as well as always slipping forward due to low and thin ankle area). Ended up with Atomic Hawx Ultra Women's, which are about the best that I have yet found (actually a very nice boot indeed for me, finally a cuff which I have some chance of touching a shin against!), though still a tad sloppy in places, and probably had to go up a size than I'd really like in terms of the really snug, precise fit which I'm always after. Zipfits are helping too, but still need more cork injecting at the front of the ankle.
But don't hurt or make things numb, and vaguely feel attached to foot and lower leg.
Getting there 
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You know it makes sense.
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Green boots seem to work best for me!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@BobinCH, no way. Red, everyone knows that.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Arno wrote: |
I'm lucky in that I have never suffered from rubbing/blisters and the only weirdness is inflexible calves (which always leads to pain in the balls of my feet) and quite a high volume instep which means I never really need to do the buckles over the top of my foot |
Quick side question - How did you work out that the pain in the balls of your feet is due to inflexible calves? I get pain in the balls of my feet when skiing, and have recently noticed that my skiing socks are wearing very thin on the balls, whereas my normal socks normally wear out at the heel or the toes first.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've skied with @BobinCH a lot...he's really good, a lot better than me.
I got the message in the end...swapping to green boots to up my game.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@horizon, You've taken the lid off the can of worms with this thread!
I had various pairs of ill-fitting boots in the late 80's, Nordica, Salomon and Tecnica all fitted by so called boot-fitters yet crippled my feet, which took me right through to the early noughties when I eventually ended up in some Black Diamond Factors, and even though they were like divers boots were super comfy, and I invested at same time in custom insole and had a proper boot fit by Rivington. Swapped for a lighter Dynafit boot after lugging the heavy BD's around and basically copied all the adjustments that the RA lads did, heat moulded them myself and moved insole across, great fit. Reserved a pair of new model at Jennewein from Geoff last season and was just going to get them fitted in St Anton when we got evacuated in March so who knows how they fit and even if they still have them on hold for me, my old ones are there just in case too in friends garage with all our hardware (hopefully). Mrsmm29 always has boots fitted by Geoff too, he's highly recomended.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Rcav, diagnosed by a couple of the excellent bootfitters who post on here. IIRC they got me to crouch down as deeply as I can and it's based on how much your heels lift. Combination of this and a couple of other things means I get hot aches at the end of the day which can be quite sore
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
and have recently noticed that my skiing socks are wearing very thin on the balls, whereas my normal socks normally wear out at the heel or the toes first
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@Rcav, Long socks those
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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yes but do you want Race fit, leisure fit or girlfriend skiing fit? 
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| .......Swapped for a lighter Dynafit boot after lugging the heavy BD's around and basically copied all the adjustments that the RA lads did, heat moulded them myself and moved insole across, great fit. Reserved a pair of new model at Jennewein from Geoff last season and was just going to get them fitted in St Anton when we got evacuated in March so who knows how they fit and even if they still have them on hold for me....... |
Markymark29, if it's the Hoji Free 130's you're after then you'll probably have to downsize as they're 6mm longer than your Mercury's. I was in the same size 27/27.5 Mercury as you with a 15/16mm shell gap and the Hoji Free in 27/27.5 was too long (21/22mm shell gap) and had too much volume. The 26/26.5 Hoji Free was initially too snug but with a heat mould (with a toe cap) they're perfect. There's an initial faff/set-up factor with the buckles but once you've got that sorted the ski/walk mechanism is just superb. You like the additional but more progressive stiffness compared to the Mercury's.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've got a really patchy record with ski boots - plenty of mistakes.
The worst mistake I ever made was buying a pair of Nordica Grand Prix by pointing at them in a ski shop and saying "I'll try those" - excuciating and expensive.
The best performance/comfort balance I have ever had was by buying a pair of boots in exactly the same way - which just proves you can be lucky (raichle flexons).
Now I don't need to be lucky because if I want some new alpine boots I'll just buy some Full Tilt Originals with stiff tongues in 27. These are the same last as the raichle flexons and fit me like a firm handshake straight out of the box and give me all day comfort. I proved this by buying a second hand pair from a snowhead for £50. I'll be internet shopping for a pair when I need a replacement (not soon I think).
Touring boots are more complex (Full Tilt now make one but not in the narrower Original last). I've had a decent (internet) result with Dalbello Lupos but will probably buy a lighter pair and will get proper service from a shop/fitter for that.
In between the disasters I've had properly fitted boots with results that have ranged from disappointing to very good but nothing has been as good as the raichles or Full Tilts
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@spyderjon, Thanks for the heads up, was planning on getting fitted in August however that looks like it could be a non-starter if BoZo doesn't let us away with no quarantine.....more to the point the Dutch, Germans, Austrians, Belgians and French probably won't let us across their borders!
The UK quarantine thing makes me so mad......we came back after evacuation from St Anton 13/14th March (a known CV19 hotspot at the time) under police roadblocks and at the borders only allowed to Zurich on a non-stop bus, not even so much as a temperature check at Manchester, isolated ourselves for 14 days (i'd be really interested to know how many on those planes did). Almost 3 months later BJ decides he's now introducing 14 day quarantine, even though the incoming person can jump on train/ bus into London etc, give a foney contact details and disappear. The UK should have gone straight away into Lockdown 13th March, and tested/ quarantined on entry not half-hearted nonsense we've had for the last 3 months. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@jedster, Full Tilts! My first and only pair of ski boots were Full Tilts, bought in the summer from Lockwoods in Leamington. They were down to £100 and i was desperate for them to fit... Bought them after my 1st "adult" trip after a 10 year hiatus and they hurt like the proverbial for a couple of years, but in hindsight i put that down to getting better etc. Still have them now, 10 years later. One buckle broke. Fortunately in St Anton and the 2nd last shop i went to had one in their parts bin so they drilled that in. Bought stiffer tongues off ebay and that's helped in the last year as you can just switch them out.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Badbobby,
DOn't think you took it this way but rereading my post feel I should clarify - I'm not saying everyone should try FT's! I'm more saying that ski boot nirvana is really about finding a last that is a naturally good fit for your feet/physiology and style and sticking with it! If you can do that you avoid a lot of time, cost, discomfort and frustration
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No, didn’t take it that way. More surprise that anyone else has had a pair and emphasising that my comfort is entirely luck despite buying them only because they were massively discounted. Obviously I convinced myself they fit...
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You know it makes sense.
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| horizon wrote: |
So...have I got really weird feet? (surprisingly, all the bootfitters said that's not the case...but my feet do cramp in the first 10 minutes when I play tennis). Have I just been unlucky? Am I doing something wrong? |
Yes
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| irbis wrote: |
| horizon wrote: |
So...have I got really weird feet? (surprisingly, all the bootfitters said that's not the case...but my feet do cramp in the first 10 minutes when I play tennis). Have I just been unlucky? Am I doing something wrong? |
Yes |
Not picking more sympathetic friends?
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Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="Dave of the Marmottes"]
| irbis wrote: |
Not picking more sympathetic friends? |
I am offering this 'yes' as a scientific observation coming from someone who was present on most of horizon's skiing trips in the last 12 years or so.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@irbis, I guessed
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ive been in the same model of plug boots for 10 years but they stopped making em so going to swap to a brand new model / manufacturer for this coming season. Not looking forward to it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Ive been in the same model of plug boots for 10 years but they stopped making em so going to swap to a brand new model / manufacturer for this coming season. Not looking forward to it |
good luck!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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About to take the plunge and get some proper fitted boots. I've been getting by with some ex-hire ones that picked up for a steal. I reckon my feet are "pretty standard" size 8/9 with high mileage having spent a career in & out of the mountains, for leisure and yomping.
North London based, was tempted to head over to Hillingdon but multiple recommendations for the place in Bicester...I agree with an earlier comment about the blind leading the blind when it comes to what the fit "feels" like!
Any tips/hints gratefully received!!
(ps - I'm old and stubborn and was tempted to just grab an off the shelf pair from S&R summer sale and make them work!!)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dravot, also multiple recommendations for Profeet in Fulham if thats handy for you.
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| Dravot wrote: |
About to take the plunge and get some proper fitted boots. I've been getting by with some ex-hire ones that picked up for a steal. I reckon my feet are "pretty standard" size 8/9 with high mileage having spent a career in & out of the mountains, for leisure and yomping.
North London based, was tempted to head over to Hillingdon but multiple recommendations for the place in Bicester...I agree with an earlier comment about the blind leading the blind when it comes to what the fit "feels" like!
Any tips/hints gratefully received!!
(ps - I'm old and stubborn and was tempted to just grab an off the shelf pair from S&R summer sale and make them work!!) |
Going to Bicester is a good move.....and Profeet is also a good shout.
As for a good fit:
- Wear thin ski socks for fitting and make sure toenails are cut well back
- Toes should brush the end when standing straight - but should pull back when knees pushed forwards
- Heel should not lift or foot move about, when skiing
- If they feel totally comfortable in the shop, they will likely prove too big when the liners pack down
- Initially they should feel a bit tight - but not uncomfortably so.....they should fit snugly, without having to crank up the buckles
- Don't be surprised if they are quite hard to put on and harder to take off (especially when plastic is cold)
- The flex of the boots will stiffen in the cold of the mountains
- Trust the Bootfitter and accurately answer any questions relating to how you ski and the type of fit you are looking for eg Sporting/Performance etc
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So here's a question...if you go for a top end boot fitting and the expert boot fitter concludes that you're a size xx and the best boot for you is a Milerbender SProMax 130 at a cost of £450, and if they charge extra for the fitting, as opposed to crediting the purchase price, would the same boot from S&R, Ellis Brigham etc at £250 sale price have the same fit if they didn't need to adjust the boot...and is this poor etiquette?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dravot wrote: |
| So here's a question...if you go for a top end boot fitting and the expert boot fitter concludes that you're a size xx and the best boot for you is a Milerbender SProMax 130 at a cost of £450, and if they charge extra for the fitting, as opposed to crediting the purchase price, would the same boot from S&R, Ellis Brigham etc at £250 sale price have the same fit if they didn't need to adjust the boot...and is this poor etiquette? |
You need the right boot for your ability and foot shape - this is a skill. If the boot needs tweaked, this is also a skill. You won't know what you will need until it's figured out for you......and at that point, you can hardly say thanks, but no thanks and walk out.
A custom footbed is also pretty much a necessity - and correctly doing this and trimming it to fit the ski boot, is also a skill.
There are no shortcuts. The boots should give you many years of skiing - so taken over a 12 year period, it's not bad. Get it wrong and it can make your skiing a miserable experience - or stop you fulfilling your potential.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 29-07-20 21:02; edited 1 time in total
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Dravot wrote: |
| So here's a question...if you go for a top end boot fitting and the expert boot fitter concludes that you're a size xx and the best boot for you is a Milerbender SProMax 130 at a cost of £450, and if they charge extra for the fitting, as opposed to crediting the purchase price, would the same boot from S&R, Ellis Brigham etc at £250 sale price have the same fit if they didn't need to adjust the boot...and is this poor etiquette? |
You need the right boot for your ability and foot shape - this is a skill. If the boot needs tweaked, this is also a skill. You won't know what you will need until it's figured out for you......and at that point, you can hardly say thanks, but no thanks and walk out.
A custom footbed is also pretty much a necessity - and correctly doing this and trimming it to fit the ski boot, is also a skill.
There are no shortcuts. The boots should give you many years of skiing - so taken over a 12 year period, it's not bad. |
I guess my point is if its a standard boot and the boot fitter is selling it for c£200 more, plus the cost of the boot fitting (£100), is it acceptable to just pay for the boot fitting?
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FAQ
