Poster: A snowHead
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I was just wondering this. My guess is that if social distancing is still in force then lift passes might be tied to accommodation, and only available for short periods (eg 6 day or 13 day maximum).
The accommodation tie would allow all accommodation providers a fair bite of the cherry, and a fixed number of short period passes would control numbers.
Anyone heard anything from the lift companies?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I can imagine circumstances where you might be right. And/or season passes being restricted to resort residents / workers. The big advantage of season passes fom the lift co perspective is that they receive cash early in the season - as opposed to when people arrive for their 1 week holiday...
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That sounds illegal under anti trust / competition rules.
You are not allowed to manipulate markets.
People staying in other accommodation ( elsewhere ) have to be offered the same.
Everyone has to be offered equal access - this is one of the reasons there is no longer a residents price for PdS passes, as it's illegal to discriminate ( in Europe - Switzerland maintains a resident discount ).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Quote: |
advantage of season passes
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I don't think that that many season passes are sold vs "ordinary ones" and they are very heavily discounted. An exception could be the PdS where last year they needed a cash injection so rather than borrowing they sold 5,000 passes at €500 - a price at which I believe many more were sold than usual.
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I've been wondering the resorts will limit absolute numbers and therefore sell season tickets early and then start to limit daily/weekly passes up to the maximum number for the given period.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Alastair Pink, The price increase was announced just before Christmas:
https://www.jungfrauzeitung.ch/artikel/178640/
There has been no further news, and obviously the commercial landscape has changed quite a bit since then. Perhaps we can take heart from the introduction of the super-cheap Corona summer pass that the Jungfraubahn will try to maximise skier numbers next winter by holding back the increase. Whatever the price, I'm sure Birg/Schilthorn will be included, the row that led to them possibly being excluded last season having been settled.
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@telford_mike, how interesting. I must try and get the stats for Chamonix then. I could easily be completely wrong about my thinking on this.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Season lift passes are essential for inhabitants, staff, instructors, etc. I would imagine it's a sizable chunk of the lift pass sales income.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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OP, I certainly hope so. I have 2 weeks planned already for 20/21 ( 1 week - flights and accommodation paid for, but financially uncommitted to the other as yet ), which means I am pretty much at the tipping point where a season card starts to make sense from a cost point of view. And I'm sure i can find another week from somewhere
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queenie pretty please wrote: |
Season lift passes are essential for inhabitants, staff, instructors, etc. I would imagine it's a sizable chunk of the lift pass sales income. |
Their passes may not have been sold at full price though, they may even have been free.
Where I mostly ski the turnstiles make a different noise for my season pass than for an instructor or local club member.
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You know it makes sense.
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In NA I have seen no deviation from the normal attempts to sell us season passes now, with the exception of various new "buyer protection" features which essentially allow you to not use your 20-21 pass and slide it to 21-22 if they don't open or you don't want to go yet. Probably a smart strategy. Right now there are two ski areas open on the west coast of the US, and both are by-reservation only and limited to 500. The reservations are gone in two minutes. It will be interesting to see how this scales up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Talking to my local CH bank manager, she said that the advance season ticket sales were the determinant of profitability for the lift companies. They really, really want to get that revenue up-front ahead of the opening, rather than it trickling in between mid-December and April. And generally, if advance sales are disappointing then it means the whole season will be difficult, however good the snow is. The best situation is if it snows a load in early December, and then lots of the locals decide they'll go for a season ticket, rather than buy a pass as and when. Invariably, the lift company ends up with more revenue overall: season-holders also end up visiting more often than they would otherwise, and spend more in the resort across the season too.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 2-06-20 14:06; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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WindOfChange wrote: |
That sounds illegal under anti trust / competition rules.
You are not allowed to manipulate markets.
People staying in other accommodation ( elsewhere ) have to be offered the same.
Everyone has to be offered equal access - this is one of the reasons there is no longer a residents price for PdS passes, as it's illegal to discriminate ( in Europe - Switzerland maintains a resident discount ). |
There is a difference between discrimination - offering the same goods at different prices based on some protected characteristic of the purchaser (although in the UK those characteristics don't include location) - and deciding whether or not to trade with someone. Any private company can decide not to trade with any individual, without having to give a reason.
If it turns out that resort numbers have to be limited, it has got to be better for lift cos to limit the number of passes sold. Alternatives, such as selling a similar number to this year but then having to impose limits like restricting numbers through the turnstiles, or saying passes are only valid for alternate weeks, are much less satisfactory.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
In NA I have seen no deviation from the normal attempts to sell us season passes now, with the exception of various new "buyer protection" features which essentially allow you to not use your 20-21 pass and slide it to 21-22 if they don't open or you don't want to go yet. Probably a smart strategy. Right now there are two ski areas open on the west coast of the US, and both are by-reservation only and limited to 500. The reservations are gone in two minutes. It will be interesting to see how this scales up. |
I don't think the current model at A Basin (is the other Timberline?) is in the slightest bit appropriate for those catchments and numbers of passholders. If it is the model for next season then anyone selling season passes had better be prepared to hand a lot of money back or be fending off lawsuits all season - they are honestly better not opening than making opportunity to ski a lottery every day. And such a system would utterly destroy European resort economics.
I was on the fence about buying (& in all liklihood rolling over) an Ikon again. The A Basin case study has pretty much convinced me that it would be futile bar a miracle vaccine in the next 5 months.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@LaForet, also interesting. CdMB don't seem very open with their accounts...
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I can't imagine how their economics are going to work. I mean, some ski resorts are essentially real-estate plays, but the real estate only works because there's a working resort there. They presumably have fairly large fixed costs, with the guest numbers providing the difference between a marginal or loss making year and a very profitable one. 2019-20 was possibly not too shabby, because in North America at least the season ends early, or at least it does in terms of high-volume in BC at least. So they lost a couple of weeks revenue from the end of the season, but they also dumped some costs then, and the season to that point had been ahead of the last. Some businesses I'm aware of at least made more money than the previous season thanks to that combination.
I doubt a large resort could operate economically with 500 guests a day. The business model doesn't make sense to me. Small obscure hills could perhaps operate pretty much as normal. Everyone wears helmets and face coverings anyway; their main customers are locals; and they're seldom crowded. That leaves issues with finding accommodation and available food, and being able to get there without crazy long quarantine. Even so, they are sitting on a huge financial risk which I doubt many will want to share in, so I'd not be expecting huge season ticket sales at this time.
Vail Resorts' did some very interesting things with season passes, but I'm not sure that model will work at all until the world
has Covid-19 very much in control, which for now at least isn't on the cards any time soon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Crystal Mtn is the other west coast area open via reservations (very limited terrain both at CM and Timberline). As for the Ikon, I'm going to renew mine since it can be deferred a year if need be. It looks like staying on one's own continent for a little while makes some sense.
@philwig, I think you're right, I bet some operators had a good year this year. All the late season skiers are passholders who don't buy anything, so shutting early didn't really hit income much. Also agree that small areas seem to have a way forward that is clearer than the Whistlers and Vails.
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@ecureuil, It's not as simple as choosing who to trade with.
The lift companies are granted licenses to operate from the communes within the PdS.
Saying that passes can only be purchased if bought as a package with X accommodation provider is anti-competitve, and would result in their license to operate being revoked.
Accommodation providers on the other hand can buy passes and bundle them at attractive rates with the accommodation, as they are not using their a of service provision to skew the market.
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@under a new name Yes, I'd like to see the operating model for our local lift operator. The pricing metrics must be very finely-balanced.
Interestingly, we saw what they called 'demand pricing' in operation last winter season: We were out for over 3 weeks, and just bought by the day. On three occasions, when we went to buy our 1-day pass, the rate had dropped significantly (down 15-20%). But it wasn't actually posted anywhere until you started to checkout online or were presented with the total at the caisse. As far as I could see, the idea was to get locals to check the night before a weekday impulse ski, and if there was a discount it would encourage them to go for it.
It's also interesting that in summer peak season, Téléverbier doesn't charge at all for pedestrians to use the lifts (if they've paid their CHF 2.50 Tourist Tax). While VTT riders get a 50% discount. This takes away one reason for a local to get an annual season, since for a walker, it's free anyway in the summer. It implies that running the lifts themselves is not particularly expensive. Or perhaps this is just an at-cost loss-leader to encourage locals to come to the 4 Vallées. It would be interesting to understand it better.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 2-06-20 16:22; edited 1 time in total
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Quote: |
I doubt a large resort could operate economically with 500 guests a day
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500? I think you have lost a couple zeros. The club med in arc 1600 has over 1000 beds alone. I doubt that hotel alone wouldn't survive on 500 guests, never mind Arc 1600 or the whole of Les Arcs. Most lifts have a capacity exceeding 500 per hour and a large resort may have over 130 lifts
Quote: |
Everyone wears helmets and face coverings anyway;
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Do they?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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LaForet wrote: |
It's also interesting that in summer peak season, Téléverbier doesn't charge at all for pedestrians to use the lifts (if they've paid their CHF 2.50 Tourist Tax). While VTT riders get a 50% discount. This take away one reason for a local to get an annual season, as for a walker, it's free anyway in the summer. It implies that running the lifts themselves is not particularly expensive. Or perhaps this is just an at-cost loss-leader to encourage locals to come to the 4 Vallées. It would be interesting to understand it better. |
AIUI in Austria the "free" lift passes you sometimes get (other places it might be free bus and train) are part of a syndicate of local hotels etc paying in. Maybe Televerbier are themselves funded similarly in summer season.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@snowdave, thanks! I had a good look through the cdmb site and couldn’t find them, the links that looked promisingnjust didn’t work for me, and I didn’t have the motivation to try and work around, nor the time or inclination to try e.g. infogreffe.
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Our Magic Passes for 20/21 arrived (UK) last week. Hopefully, we'll be allowed in to use them. We're fortunate to have the time to isolate/quarantine in our destination country should the authorities require it before enjoying the skiing.
Magic Passes are valid to include the summer season ahead of the ski season (May 9th 2020 to May 2nd 2021) whereas the Austrian passes we've used so far are valid only for the ski season, eg October 01, 2019 to May 15, 2020 for the Snowcard Tirol.
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You know it makes sense.
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@snowdave, hmmm, I got to page 20 and had to move on. Will browse again later!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, yeah, it's pretty heavy going. I read a lot of these things (usually in native-English, not Google-English) and still struggle to interpret this. The vast array of interrelated companies and partial shareholdings makes it tough.
Let us know if you find anything good! There is some interesting commentary on the overall ski industry.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@WindOfChange, thanks, yes, the CdA stuff is a bit easier to get/deal with as it's a listed company, although being French-listed, its disclosure is still definitely "second division"!
CdA does indeed "own" CdMB, although there's a bunch of minorities in CdMB as well. It's all very Japanese in terms of corporate structures, cross shareholdings etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A commercial company can choose who they make an offer to or not, however they cannot say they're not making and offer becuase the buyer is of a minority or discriminatory type.
The reason why both the examples that sprung to your mind went to court was that in both instances the vendors stated to the buyers that they withdrew their offers because they (the vendors) disagreed with the buyers sexual tendancy.
Had the vendors said "sorry we can't take your order as our order book is full" then there would have been no case however, they said "sorry I can't your order because you are gay and that's against my religious beliefs".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Resorts in Europe will be following Australia and NZ closely this summer. In Oz they are limiting the amount of passes on sale and accom providers cannot guarantee passes - some not opening at all this season.
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The Salzburg Super Ski Card is giving a €45 rebate to those who bought last season's pass, so it looks as though they plan to sell season passes for next season as usual.
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Televerbier have 20-21 annual passes for sale.
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@iainm, I truly don't think that's true.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The Verbier 4 Valleys 2020-21 advance pass is available to buy now at
https://www.easyverbier.com/en/prevente-hiver2021
CHF 1'359 (£1,111 GBP) for Season, CHF 1'402 for the Annual (the CHF 43 extra for the latter includes 50 days of skiing in 'other resorts' but no detail on which). I'd always add the CHF 98 for the full assistance cover too, which includes helicopter evacuation etc. You also get up to 50% discount on lockers at the various base stations.
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Magic pass at CHF 399 arrived two weeks ago, it is by far the best deal I've seen on lift passes. No Crans Montana this year unless you pay the Crans Montana supplement of CHF 149, which I will not be doing as its a fairly stupid idea when you have so many other good resorts to pick from (plus Crans Montana, objectively, is up its own back bottom).
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