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Ski Club of Great Britain Chief Exec resigns

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Also - take a look at https://www.skiclub.co.uk/about-the-ski-club/press-centre/press-releases?page=1

Did the SCGB really issue no press releases at all (nada - zilch - zero) between October 2017 and March 2019? No announcement of the new CEO in 2018? Or has it judiciously edited its press release archive to remove the embarrassing evidence of failure?

Nothing between September 2016 and October 2017? Really?
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ousekjarr wrote:

I can't resist asking how it got to be like this.


I think you answered your own question, reactionary forces. It happens in nearly every organisation from the top to the bottom where people are more interested in maintaining a status quo even if it means the eventual failure of the organisation because it suits them in the medium term. Look at Microsoft - it was totally wedded to the Office cash cow because a lot of folk in the company were now "old boys" and only wanted to keep things running another decade to pick up their pensions rather than move into new areas which would sideline their own activity. It takes very strong leadership with backing from the owners to turn that situation around.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pisteoff wrote:
I too am member, and now Council member at the SCGB (openness is good, please be gentle...) . Its great to see all this interest on Snowheads, I am one of those that feel we are all on the same side, trying to support good skiing (and Boarding) for all. Clearly the club has made some mistakes over the last eighteen months and the changes to what was the leading service have not gone down well with members. However we needed to deal with a tricky legal position, and could not escape the reality of the French decision, however much we think it "unfair".
I also feel very positive that the SCGB has turned a corner and has the fundamentals in place to re-build the great members club that many of us have enjoyed so much in the past. The new Chairman is helping us greatly, new Council has a renewed commitment to on-snow and we do have a great Freshtracks holiday programme, and fantastic member base - sorry, didn't mean this as a SCGB pitch, just to share with you that the SCGB Council is committed to rebuilding a club which I hope many of you will enjoy being a member of. Feel free to drop me a PM


Thank you for sharing. It's this transparency that will get people staying/joining. I'm unsure why sugarmomma666 would have wanted that initial couple of posts kept quiet. Those are the exact sort of things that are required to become more transparent and will help in the decision making of people conisdering joining/remaining as members. This is the only way for the SCGB to remain as a going concern in the long run.
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@pisteoff, Thanks for your post. I think that many of us on Snowheads (with some notable exceptions) have a lot of time for the SCGB and wish it well, even 'though some of us may not currently be members. Over the years leader days in Argentiere, Freshtracks holidays and more recently Instructor Led Guiding have been an important part of my development as an off-piste skier, as well providing many brilliant days on the mountain.

Davidof has hit the nail on the head regarding reactionary forces who don't want to adapt to the changing world, some of them I've met still think the SCGB gave in too easily to the ESF! I think it could be possible for the SCGB to survive in providing Freshtracks Holidays and ILG (the only reason I and I suspect many others would renew my subscription or indeed justify the high cost) but the clubs structure is grossly top heavy in terms of manpower and cost( just contrast it with the admin resources required by Snoworks) and clearly not sustainable in terms of income vs expenditure. The SCGB has steadfastly resisted facilitating and promoting peer to peer communication between its members, something which should be essential for the SCGB to actually operate as a club, again something many of the dinosaur contingent have resisted.

I can imagine the frustrations leading to the revolving door at the top with intransigence and refusal to accept how the world has changed.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 9-04-20 11:38; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Echo the comments of snow Dave
Club was great with leader program until the arrest stopped that insurance this year has showed its limitations in cover
It’s relevance is the issue here the comments challenging the OP for posting on here just confirm the denial problems it faces they cannot expect to operate in some cozy world of their own
I particularly enjoyed the comment regarding “luck” as if the OP was a very naughty boy who had “got away” with revealing big secrets!
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ChrisKernow wrote:
Quite surprised to get a PM from someone annoyed I have put the transcript here.

It wasn't marked "secret" and the Chairman himself mentions about openness.

It ain't the masons!!!


Funny that the SCGB seem to have some members who regard the keeping of all information necessarily closed? Part of not embarassing any good chaps or owning up to past missteps?

Doesn't feel like another grubby little secret to me, it's just a fact surely? Obviously raises a tonne more questions in the inquiring or even enquiring mind like "WTAF are they playing at?" but anyway I'm sure the answer now for all the members who deserve some accountability is COVID.

& yes FWIW I parse the text in the same way as @snowdave which probably means that the members will not get a full and transparent explanation as the club will wish to protect against legal action from Holt re reputation etc. and now a head has rolled all is new and will be fine.....or not....
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks from me too to @pisteoff for joining this thread. I have been a SCGB member for many years and used to value the rep system. Latterly I have remained a member to participate in Freshtracks off-piste holidays. I have saved more than my subscription cost through discounts. The printed magazine is a waste of money, imho. The website has also wasted a lot of money.
Insufficient account is taken of members' views. Perhaps too much attention is paid to reps?? I do hope the current council members can save the Club. The chalet operation in Flaine is surely a viable business in itself which must be continued. I tried it for the first time this year and would like to go back next winter.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I'm interested in the way my concerns have been interpreted by some. They arise from my view that private correspondence shouldn't be copied onto an internet forum, or published in a paper, or made public in any other way. Correspondence sent to someone as a member of a club or other society fits into this category in my view. I'd have the same view regardless of what the club or society is, as I do when posts have been copied from this forum to other locations without the author's permission.

I (incorrectly) believed the emails were to members of the SCGB only. Apparently I was incorrect, as the SCGB have sent the email much more widely. That wasn't clear from the emails, and the content of the second in particular didn't look intended to be shared widely.

To be clear, I'd have thought it perfectly reasonable to have a discussion here about the resignation of the chairman, based on a press release, but I didn't think that's what had been sent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@sugarmoma666, do you not think that the unexpected departure of the CEO merits a press release? I'd have thought so, but the SCGB have not issued one, or at least their website has nothing and appears to be only sporadically updated. On the other hand, their Facebook group is updated several times per day, and also says nothing. I suspect whoever managed their web site is one of the departed, as it also still lists Ian Holt as the CEO, the day after his departure. That's really poor...

Then again, so far only PlanetSki has shown enough interest to publish the story - where's the national press, and why are they not interested in this story? Oh yes, maybe because they don't care about a club with only just over 10000 members, whose eventual and apparently inevitable disappearance will leave barely a whisper of an impact?
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Dave of the Marmottes, I think the explanation is already fairly transparent if one reads between the lines (as you and I have done). The only question that really remains to me is how much (of any) of a payoff he receives. If it's nil (i.e. less than contractual minimum) that would suggest there were material adverse findings from the investigation.

However, I feel I'm drifting slightly into rubber-necking - the club has lost a lot of money and members, the CEO has lost his job (and potentially others ahve lost theirs; if the club had been run more competently maybe it would be better able to stay afloat and retain staff) and we're all a bit poorer for the weakening of a body that maybe could have much more for skiing/snowboarding than its managed to do.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@snowdave, It would be supremely ironic if not entirely plausible if having effectively "sacked" the guy for financial mismanagement they then have to serve a hefty payoff because he was smart enough to build in watertight clauses there in his contract. wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
ousekjarr wrote:
@sugarmoma666, do you not think that the unexpected departure of the CEO merits a press release?

Not sure why you've directed this question at me, but since you have, yes, I do think it merits a press release.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
sugarmoma666 wrote:

To be clear, I'd have thought it perfectly reasonable to have a discussion here about the resignation of the chairman, based on a press release, but I didn't think that's what had been sent.


...and I asked why not. That's why it was directed at you, though I don't for one minute hold you responsible for the lack of one, unless of course you are one of these people: https://www.skiclub.co.uk/about-the-ski-club/ski-club-staff-and-council/marketing
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
snowdave wrote:
@pisteoff the insurance excludes pretty much everything related to the current crisis, it's looking a lot less useful.


This x2!

I was debating leaving the club last year due to the loss of on snow leading and not having been on a recent freshtracks trip but felt that as the insurance was good value for me and "appeared" to offer comprehensive cover in terms of the key things, medical cover, liability, off piste skiing and cancellation I would continue my membership.

When an organisation posts a flat out comment on their supposedly top tier "Platinum" membership webpage stating this (copied verbatim):

"*Please note, our policies do not provide cover for cancellation, abandonment or curtailment claims if the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advises against all or “all but essential” travel. Our policies will also not cover any claims caused by or relating to Coronavirus, COVID-19, Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS-COV-2), any mutation of Coronavirus, COVID-19 or SARs-COV-2 or any pandemic or fear or threat of any the above. We also can not cover any claims relating to any fear or threat concerning these viruses. This general exclusion applies to all sections of cover except for the Emergency Medical Expenses section"

Regardless of whether bookings were made before the pandemic or taking into account any specific factors from the insured party my confidence in their product takes a hammering. They also added a simialr amendment to their policy documents AFTER I and I'm sure many others agreed to pay for annual coverage from said policy.

Fortunately it seems that I will not be needing to use my insurance given the actions of the companies I had used for travel booked pre corona pandemic in regard to refunds or deferral but in future, I will look to pay for insurance that actually covers something when the proverbial hits the fan!
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@DrNo, it will have been the policy underwriters that have added those conditions to their policies, not the SCGB. Every other insurance company has done the same in the last few weeks.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@DrNo, it must either be the case that the insurance has never covered such events, or that the change applies to new policies only. The insurance company cannot unilaterally declare that you are not covered for something which you had previously been covered for during the course of the contract.

As always, it pays to read the small print. There is a difference between comprehensive insurance, and Comprehensive Insurance.

I'm insured with Virgin Money, whose policy when I took it out included cancellation cover where:

Quote:
9. You cannot commence travel to your intended destination due to the (FCO) Foreign and Commonwealth Office advice for your destination/location changing to as a minimum ‘all but essential travel’ after the purchase of your policy or after the booking of any individual trip, whichever is the latter. This also applies to where such FCO advice changes are announced after you have commenced your trip/holiday.


There is also no exclusion for infectious diseases, so I believe that I would have been covered had I been caught out, but of course the proof of that is whether a claim would have been successful. As it was, I had no need to claim. Whether it will still be as unencumbered next year remains to be seen.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ousekjarr wrote:
@DrNo, it must either be the case that the insurance has never covered such events, or that the change applies to new policies only. The insurance company cannot unilaterally declare that you are not covered for something which you had previously been covered for during the course of the contract.


^ This. The T's and C's of an insurance policy can't be changed to be more restrictive after it has been sold, the original terms must apply for its duration!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@spyderjon, @ousekjarr, the FCO advice exclusion was in the policy pre-corona; I bought my policy in Jan.

My error was in assuming that the FCO would not suddenly advise against travelling to a major European nation in the 3 months between policy inception and trip!
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@ousekjarr, The FCO bit was in the small print and I had seen that. To be honest I never envisaged a time where I might be travelling against FCO advice although I see that many insurers do cover for changes to FCO advice. I do not recall anything about infectious diseases in the small print (and I did read it all before renewing the policy (!), particularly the sports covered and off piste requirements and have advised Snowhead members on the inclusions/exclusions in several threads) No mention was made of SARS or any other coronavirus subtype infection, pandemic or otherwise (obviously COVID wasn't identified when I renewed in Nov '19) in the policy documents.

The Platinum cover is an interesting one where it is a single policy held to cover all Platinum members (one policy number) so I am unsure whether changes can be made to the global policy at the time of renewal even though members are being added/removed all the time.

@spyderjon, I realise that it was not SCGB who initiated this term however I assume that they chose the level of policy they wanted to sell to members and probably had a hand in choosing the underwriters. I dont think that TFI/TFI's chosen underwriter always underwrote SCGB Platinum policies and I can only assume that the change in underwriter was initiated based on cost. The club are at great pains to market how comprehensive the cover is yet when you (potentially) need to claim on it isn't

Anyway, this is drifting a little off topic, the original point of my post was to suggest that a little more consideration to what members actually join the club for (like leading and proper comprehensive winter sports insurance) might be beneficial in stopping the decline in membership and going some way to restoring a more healthy financial position. I might be talking rubbish though!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This is standard for annual policies. I always use BMC annual insurance. If you (say) booked in December for a trip in May and your policy renewed in March then your new policy wouldn’t have covered for cancellation expenses incurred due to Covid 19 after the new policy commenced, there is no carry forward of protection.


When I have taken out SCGB membership in the past it’s always been for the core products, I’ve never been attracted by the fringe benefits as I can get discounts and insurance elsewhere. I fear that the SCGB’s strategy of using these bolt ons to justify the high subscription following loss of ski leading has not been successful enough in maintaining the income to fund the SCGB’s grossly oversized overheads.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 9-04-20 17:04; edited 1 time in total
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@On the rocks, What are the core products in your opinion? Leading would have been my primary one and Freshtracks trips the second. I agree that I did not become a member for a magazine or discounts!

The insurance was not a reason to join the club for me, it was however the reason I took out the "Platinum" membership as this effectively insured me for all European trips with what I felt to be comprehensive medical/cancellation/indemnity/ski cover for around £35 per year at its inception.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@DrNo, I guess it may be different for different people but for me Freshtracks Holidays and Instructor lead guiding. Insurance is something I don’t just buy on price. BMC is not the cheapest but as been excellent when I’ve needed to claim, also of course it covers me for my climbing trips
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Freshtracks and, in the past, leading are the only reasons why I have been a member. Freshtracks could be run as a business on its own without requiring payment of a subscription to SCGB.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I must admit to having been a bit puzzled when Council at the time decided to hire the Treasurer under whose watch the Club had unexpectedly lost gobs of money. Must have been a sound reason at the time (perhaps he was the only one willing to put his hand up).

Under a new Chairman and new General Manager, I do think the Club needs to dramatically narrow its focus rather than trying to be all things to all people. What is the core that its target audience really wants and is willing to pay some sort of subscription for because they see the value. A more focused Club may be able to operate on a much lower cost base.

Here is what I see as being core:
Repping/Leading service... Still seems to be seen as an incredibly important core service. Need to find a better way of navigating the legal hurdles. I suspect the repping service today is very expensive to run. Need to find a way to scale back the costs. If a resort isn't willing to billet the rep, then bin that resort. Rep gets hotel and lift ticket paid for by the local resort. They need to find their way there and back and assume any miscellaneous costs that aren't covered. Rep course can be run under Freshtracks on a cost recovery basis. Probably need a staff member to administer and liaise with local tourist offices
Freshtracks... is and needs to be run on a "commercial" basis, designed to make a small profit each year to provide a cushion for when things go horribly wrong as they have the last two seasons. Small staff needed to run this.
Discounts... popular with members. Part time role for someone to coordinate with current and prospective partners. Doesn't cost the Club anything, so may as well do it
Simple website... Cost of doing anything today. Do something on Wordpress for a few thousand quid. Increase the use of third party tools like Facebook. Allow members to actually communicate back and forth with each other trough your platform. What a novel concept. Encourage members to be the ones contributing content rather than paid staff.

Not sure:
Insurance... this is done through third party carrier in any event. If the Club can negotiate a more favourable policy for members than what is commercially available and perhaps earn a small kickback in the process that covers the cost of figuring it all out on behalf of the members, then by all means keep it. Otherwise there are plenty of travel and medical insurance companies out there who do the same thing.

Not core:
Ski Survey
Extravagantly designed useless website that requires full-time maintenance
Trying to be the voice of wintersports for the UK.
Anything requiring a large staff to manage that does not pay for itself
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Levitt, I think I've said elsewhere that if SCGB wants to survive and be purposeful and attract new members then it needs to question whether it should operate on a Pay-to-play model rather than a walled garden which is mainly full of some not all that attractive but costly junk.

Why on earth Freshtracks can't operate autonomously, priced at its all in costs with a kick back to SCGB funds and sell direct to all I don't know (probably comes down to a not insignificant sum paid for a TO back in the day) is a bit of a mystery for starters.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DJL wrote:
As a few others have said I’m not a member but did get the email. Smacks of incompetence if they can’t tell the difference between members and non-members


I think the only one they are 100% sure is a non-member is DG ......
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Levitt wrote:


Here is what I see as being core:
Repping/Leading service... Still seems to be seen as an incredibly important core service. Need to find a better way of navigating the legal hurdles. I suspect the repping service today is very expensive to run. Need to find a way to scale back the costs. If a resort isn't willing to billet the rep, then bin that resort. Rep gets hotel and lift ticket paid for by the local resort. They need to find their way there and back and assume any miscellaneous costs that aren't covered. Rep course can be run under Freshtracks on a cost recovery basis. Probably need a staff member to administer and liaise with local tourist offices


That battle has been fought and lost - Repping/Leading as it was is never coming back. The club needs to recognise this and move on, even if it is with a smaller membership, reduced income and reduced costs

Quote:
Freshtracks... is and needs to be run on a "commercial" basis, designed to make a small profit each year to provide a cushion for when things go horribly wrong as they have the last two seasons. Small staff needed to run this.

No change there

Quote:
Discounts... popular with members. Part time role for someone to coordinate with current and prospective partners. Doesn't cost the Club anything, so may as well do it


Nice to have but discounts are available elsewhere, including Snowheads,

Quote:
Simple website... Cost of doing anything today. Do something on Wordpress for a few thousand quid.

A fortune has been pissed up against the wall on the website - It's hard to see the benefit of throwing good money after bad

Quote:
Increase the use of third party tools like Facebook. Allow members to actually communicate back and forth with each other trough your platform. What a novel concept. Encourage members to be the ones contributing content rather than paid staff.


This should be a no brainer but the powers that be and many members have opposed it; I believe it is because the club want to channel all comms through their own site in the vain hope of trying to maximise advertising revenue. Many (particular older) members of the club seem averse to facebook on principal. Having said that the much resisted peer to peer messaging on the SCGB's website would have been a great step forward, but it may be too late now. After all Snowheads is very successful without need for a Facebook Channel


Quote:

Insurance... this is done through third party carrier in any event. If the Club can negotiate a more favourable policy for members than what is commercially available and perhaps earn a small kickback in the process that covers the cost of figuring it all out on behalf of the members, then by all means keep it. Otherwise there are plenty of travel and medical insurance companies out there who do the same thing.


I understand this is what they have tried to do and I can't see how it could be cheaper, it would be better to make it more expensive and comprehensive (like the BMC?)

Quote:
Not core:
Ski Survey
Extravagantly designed useless website that requires full-time maintenance
Trying to be the voice of wintersports for the UK.
Anything requiring a large staff to manage that does not pay for itself

All of this seems to be a failed strategy to maximise (overstate?) the scgb's presence in order to maximise advertising revenue.

In order to survive the SCGB needs to recognise what it can deliver and is best at, and minimise the overheads and costs to deliver it. Something akin to a cross between Snoworks and Snowheads?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I was a member for a while - for insurance, essentially. Didn't get any emails though. Just reading through this thread it seems to an outsider who knows nothing that without the leading/repping there is simply no purpose which would sustain the SCGB as a physically real institution with an office, and staff. If it didn't exist, would anyone feel the need to invent it?
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think the club HAS to bring back the leading service. It was the core value delivered for most members and, without it, membership will continue to decline to such a point that the club dies.

I simply don't agree that it can't be reinstated; not by fighting pointless, protracted and hugely expensive legal battles but by thinking laterally and coming up with a way to do it which complies with the letter of the legislation.

One way to do it would be for all the leaders to achieve the BASI basic instructor level qualification. I think that most, not all, of the previous leaders would be able to reach this level. Having done this, what would then be needed would be for the leader to become an associate (unpaid) of a local ski school in the resort since a basic instructor could not operate solo. If the quid pro quo was that all instructors would then be sourced from the relevant ski school then I don't think it would be that hard to arrange.

So, a bit of a pain to setup BUT, once done, would allow the continuation of the leading service - at least on piste.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Not a cat in hells chance of achieving that in France. There is a leading service here already led by a British Independent ISTD instructor.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Blackblade,

How would an instructor become an associate member of a ski school? Not sure if there is such a position in France wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Blackblade, given that such a person, if indeed it were possible, could not operate solo and would have to be accompanied by a French instructor anyway, why not just dispense with the SCGB "leader" entirely? Plus, the instructor is not instructing - they are guiding, and need a different level of qualification for that, so now SCGB would be paying to provide a qualified guide in each resort every day to however many (or few) members turned up without having to book in advance or pay anything. And you think they have financial difficulties now?!? Shocked
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
SCGB crashes and burns.

Wonder what will take its place? Smile
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@Blackblade, Not a chance, face up to reality, the SCGB needs to change or die, continuing to fight this lost cause will just hasten the latter. However I get the impression that some members would prefer death to change
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Hoping we are not witnessing the death throes of SCGB, but fear it may well be the end. The whole "facebook/forum" debacle has been painful to watch... Clearly indicates a mgt who have lost touch with their customers (or those who they would liner to have as customers).... as evidenced in giving up the leading service.

As an aside, Neilson canned their independent forum, much to their customers annoyance, but they are so far weathering the storm.

guess we'll wait and see...
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So much pessimism and defeatist attitudes. Where there's DG, there's a way!
He is the members' champion.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Just to be clear, there is nothing that stops someone instructing or leading a club group in France if they are not receiving pay, even off piste. It is the remuneration part that causes difficulties.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
...and without the SCGB liability insurance covering them.

So that’s fine then - anyone wanting to pay for their own season let, drinks, food and pass in return for leading SCGB members without insurance, please sign up below:
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I'm a member (or that's what I'm called - but it isn't really a club). I'm a bit fed up.

Our family membership runs til October, I'll cancel the direct debit now and restart if something good happens, but I very much doubt it will (as Eeyore might say)/
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
To those on this thread who say leading/repping is dead, I beg to disagree. I did have the opportunity to ski with reps for a couple of days this winter and actually found it to be BETTER than under the shackles that had been in place for the last two decades. We had the opportunity to go to place off the beaten track that would have been verboten under the old regime. The only difference is that the Rep wasn't leading everyone around by the nose... we got to chat and say "what would we think of going over there" and off we went.

Just need to figure out a way to recognize reps if you do not already know them.
ski holidays



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