 Poster: A snowHead
|
| Layne wrote: |
Lots of people run forums - I've led a fairly sheltered life and I know a few.
I've organised trips (skiing and otherwise) for 10-12 people. I'm not a TO. OK admin/Graham does it on a bit of a larger scale but so did a mate of mine who was a Teacher - although I think most schools use a TO these days.
SCGB holidays has a brand name and are ABTA protected as I understand it. They act like a TO. |
Again, this is thrown in there as a negative, why? Are you now claiming snowHeads isn't a TO? Also, for the sake of accuracy, Freshtracks is ATOL bonded not ABTA. I assume that snowheads, as a package holiday business, is also ATOL bonded? Or is it more of a broker arrangement?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Gerry wrote: |
| Jehu wrote: |
| I am finding this thread fascinating. If I remember correctly, Snowheads owes its existence to the SCGB, but that's not the subject of this thread. |
It's put forward as a better alternative 'club' by some contributors to this thread so it's part of the discussion now.
|
Well I was a SCGB member for about 20 years from the mid1980s onwards, and at the time I appreciated the benefits as being a solo skier it was useful to visit different resorts and have a group to ski with. However my situation then changed, as my ski trips from then on either consisted of an annual return to one particular resort (Wengen, in which I am a DHO member) or trips with friends (which incidentally I made through snowHeads) or a sHs Bash, so I no longer felt I gained any benefits through SCGB membership. For those whom SCGB membership suits their requirements well and good, I wish them and the club good luck in the future. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Gerry wrote: |
| ......I assume that snowheads, as a package holiday business, is also ATOL bonded? Or is it more of a broker arrangement? |
snowHeads does not offer package holidays as flights are not included so ATOL (Air Travel Operators Licence) bonding does not apply. Admin brokers a 'group buy' deal for the accomodation and possibly optional add-ons like a transfer bus, lift pass, lessons, guiding.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 22-04-20 10:24; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Gerry wrote: |
Again, this is thrown in there as a negative, why? Are you now claiming snowHeads isn't a TO? Also, for the sake of accuracy, Freshtracks is ATOL bonded not ABTA. I assume that snowheads, as a package holiday business, is also ATOL bonded? Or is it more of a broker arrangement? |
Just to point out that sHs is NOT a package holiday business. Admin negotiates a (good, often very good) block booking deal on accommodation, but it is the Bash attendees' responsibility to arrange their own transport to the resort (most fly, some drive).
Edit: spyderjon beat me to it! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| spyderjon wrote: |
| ...snowHeads does not offer package holidays as flights are not included so ATOL (Air Travel Operators Licence) bonding does not apply. Admin brokers a 'group buy' deal for the accomodation and possibly optional add-ons like a transfer bus, lift pass, lessons, guiding. |
Not including flights doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a package holiday. If the add-ons are ever bought/sold at the same time as the accommodation, for a combined price, that could be sufficient for the law to classify it as a package. If always added later there should be less of an issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@ecureuil, +1 My understanding of the package travel regulations (of which I've become a bit more familiar as a result of running club trips, and also through COVID) is that if you sell accommodation and something else integral to the holiday (e.g. ski pass, equipment, lessons etc.) together, you've sold a package. Together means buying them/contracting for them at the same time, not necessarily paying at the same time.
When I run small trips (20-40 people) for our club (which combine accomodation, skiing and coaching), in order to keep costs down I essentially assume a degree of personal responsibility and trust that members will do the same, but if a trip fell through, I accept that I might potentially have to refund people out of my own pocket.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Gerry wrote: |
With a rather anemic total 'membership' of 58k in 16 years, snowHeads can't claim to have reached a high level of relevance amongst UK sliders. I can see why any criticism of snowheads as an organisation will be something of a sore point for some and therefore a topic worthy of suppression.
The Ski Club demographic always gets a bashing on here but I note with great interest, and a lot of amusement, what chocksway said about the demographic of snowheads. |
Yep the demographic is probably pretty similar but that's snowsports it's not a sport or commitment for the cash poor or the severely time constrained. The reach of sHs is irrelevant, it might be to @admin but what there is works for people who take advantage of it. The origins of sHs are of course interesting and a vital bit of the story as to why SCGB has struggled with digital and "community" while sHs has built real world stuff on "community". It is surely relevant that SCGB members come here to discuss SCGB matters and gripes about the SCGB offering rather than their own thriving chat forum.
But sHs isn't competing with SCGB. No bash bar maybe the SOPiB is directly comparable to a Freshtracks holiday and SCGB members aren't made to ring a leper bell when then ski (or board  ) on a sH's bash. It's classic whattaboutery to try to excuse flaws in SCGB by reference to sHs. SCGB needs to decide what it needs to do to best serve its members and those members should I think demand accountability and ask for for what they want or just sit back and pay the subs anyway for something they aren't getting value out of through inertia. It doesn't feel like a compelling offer for me at the present but might have been in the past in marginally different personal circumstances.
So my take is that it's a pipedream to sex up the SCGB to obtain significant new membership revenue. And I think there has already been doubt cast over robustness of membership numbers re BUSC etc. But they need to focus on what they need to do to hold onto and be a compelling offer to those that they do have. Which is why I keep raising pay to play as that's the best measure of whether something is worthwhile - it someone won't pay for it standalone they don't value it and therefore you shouldn't be doing it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Gerry wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
Lots of people run forums - I've led a fairly sheltered life and I know a few.
I've organised trips (skiing and otherwise) for 10-12 people. I'm not a TO. OK admin/Graham does it on a bit of a larger scale but so did a mate of mine who was a Teacher - although I think most schools use a TO these days.
SCGB holidays has a brand name and are ABTA protected as I understand it. They act like a TO. |
Again, this is thrown in there as a negative, why? |
Actually it's not a negative or not necessarily. It's more to surface what SCGB actually is.
| Gerry wrote: |
| Are you now claiming snowHeads isn't a TO? |
It isn't to my eyes. I just use the forum and haven't been on a bash. But as far as I know the bashes are all organised through the boards and in a way that is very different to SCGB. There is no website to book holidays.
| Gerry wrote: |
| Also, for the sake of accuracy, Freshtracks is ATOL bonded not ABTA. I assume that snowheads, as a package holiday business, is also ATOL bonded? Or is it more of a broker arrangement? |
SCGB, ATOL and ABTOT bonded. I don't believe Bashes are bonded. But maybe others know better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| ChrisKernow wrote: |
The Council of the Ski Club of Great Britain announce the resignation of Ian Holt as Chief Executive of the Club, with effect from 31 March 2020. Mr Holt was appointed to the position on 1 August 2019, having previously held the position of Treasurer of the Club.
A further announcement will be made in due course about the future management of the Club. |
There’s been mostly good discussion on this thread but I wonder when the “Further Announcement” will be made and what it will be?
I fear that the impact of Covid 19 will be a further blow to club finances? A robust strategy and financial plan sooner rather than later would seem to be a prerequisite for a 2020/21 Freshtracks programme to be put together without which the club would surely be dead. See my post a couple of pages back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Layne wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
Lots of people run forums - I've led a fairly sheltered life and I know a few.
I've organised trips (skiing and otherwise) for 10-12 people. I'm not a TO. OK admin/Graham does it on a bit of a larger scale but so did a mate of mine who was a Teacher - although I think most schools use a TO these days.
SCGB holidays has a brand name and are ABTA protected as I understand it. They act like a TO. |
Again, this is thrown in there as a negative, why? |
Actually it's not a negative or not necessarily. It's more to surface what SCGB actually is.
[ |
Right, so your claim is that the Ski Club is actually a TO disguised as a club?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
All people want to know is what's the USP of the SCGB? What is it's offering to the public? And what does the membership fee get you that you couldn't get from another organisation or via the Internet? So far, I don't think I've seen any convincing answers to these questions. But of course, this isn't the SCGB website and forum, so the SCGB aren't obliged to answer anything. I can appreciate joint members of the SCGB / SH forum getting frustrated because it's easy for some SH posters to drift into open hostility, but so far, this thread has avoided that. SCGB members criticising SnowHeads commercial framework is, however, irrelevant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@LaForet, I don't think there is a USP, just a number of things that appeal to people, for me it's the social side and ILG in Tignes. For other folks it's the package holidays from the 3 brands that it operates. Others like the discounts, others like the repping.
There do seem to be a few people on high who gloat over the difficulties of the SCGB, not sure why, both communities are dedicated to sliding up or downhill on snow or an artificial form of said substance.
Times are a changin' as the song goes, hopefully the SCGB will get over it's current hiatus and have many more years to come as it evolves, as it has done over the last 100 or so years.
@Gerry, when are you next coming to Tignes. Must be time for another beer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Gerry wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
Lots of people run forums - I've led a fairly sheltered life and I know a few.
I've organised trips (skiing and otherwise) for 10-12 people. I'm not a TO. OK admin/Graham does it on a bit of a larger scale but so did a mate of mine who was a Teacher - although I think most schools use a TO these days.
SCGB holidays has a brand name and are ABTA protected as I understand it. They act like a TO. |
Again, this is thrown in there as a negative, why? |
Actually it's not a negative or not necessarily. It's more to surface what SCGB actually is.
[ |
Right, so your claim is that the Ski Club is actually a TO disguised as a club? |
I am suggesting that one of their major activities is acting as a TO.
Not suggesting they are trying to disguise it.
Wondering how it fits into their overall purpose and other activities.
Answering may be to do more of it, I don't know....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| chocksaway wrote: |
| There do seem to be a few people on high who gloat over the difficulties of the SCGB, not sure why, both communities are dedicated to sliding up or downhill on snow or an artificial form of said substance. |
Their difficulties are clearly a point for discussion though. And inevitably some will be detractors rather than supporters. Maybe they gloat because they saw it happening, maybe even tried to prevent it happening.
I am actually ambivalent on it - though I am interested because as you say they are a part of a community/activity that interests me.
Looking at the discounts page they are better than some I've seen with other organisations!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Layne wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
Lots of people run forums - I've led a fairly sheltered life and I know a few.
I've organised trips (skiing and otherwise) for 10-12 people. I'm not a TO. OK admin/Graham does it on a bit of a larger scale but so did a mate of mine who was a Teacher - although I think most schools use a TO these days.
SCGB holidays has a brand name and are ABTA protected as I understand it. They act like a TO. |
Again, this is thrown in there as a negative, why? |
Actually it's not a negative or not necessarily. It's more to surface what SCGB actually is.
[ |
Right, so your claim is that the Ski Club is actually a TO disguised as a club? |
I am suggesting that one of their major activities is acting as a TO.
Not suggesting they are trying to disguise it.
Wondering how it fits into their overall purpose and other activities.
Answering may be to do more of it, I don't know.... |
The Ski Club arranges holidays for its members to go on. They've been doing that since I joined and it's one of the reasons I joined and stayed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| chocksaway wrote: |
@Gerry, when are you next coming to Tignes. Must be time for another beer. |
Definitely next season. I would have been there last week if we were still living in normal times.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Oh dear. Breaking news or whatever you newshounds say:
| Quote: |
A Big Thank You to Tom Jarman from the Ski Club Council
The Council would like to take this opportunity to thank Tom Jarman for his contribution to the running of the Ski Club of Great Britain. Tom was appointed to the Council in November 2019 where he brought his considerable experience, passion and talents. Tom was instrumental in helping us appoint our new interim Chairman, Trevor Campbell Davis plus the new interim General Manager Angus Maciver. Both of whom have a wealth of experience and are highly regarded in their fields.
As a result, the Council, all agree, that we are now in a better position and have become far more effective at tackling the considerable challenges and issues the club currently faces. To continue on this path, it is with regret that the Council have asked Tom to step down. We wish him the very best and thank him for his service. Tom can be confident that the Council are aware that he achieved many of the goals he set out to, in supporting the club. Thank you |
Lovely fluffy sentiments but understand he was removed after a vote of no confidence by the rest of the board yet, according to the above, "he brought his considerable experience, passion and talents" and was "was instrumental in helping us appoint our new interim Chairman, Trevor Campbell Davis plus the new interim General Manager Angus Maciver" - so why would you get rid of someone who sounds like exactly the kind of person a board needs? He was only elected in November by Members - I would be pretty 'piste off' if the person I voted for was ousted like this. Apparently Tom has more to say on the matter and I understand he posts here as pisteoff so maybe this is as good a place as any to get a friendly ear
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Another extraordinary communication. FWIW I thought that pisteoff's contributions to this thread and similar ones were the epitome of informative, respectful, on-message comment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Hmm interesting . Wonder what did for @pisteoff? Fraternising with the enemy? FWIW I think he's done more in portraying a positive image of the club as an open minded forward looking outfit than anyone else on these pages for years and even @gerry has grown up a bit by being set a higher bar.
Maybe it's entirely innocent but a very oddly worded communication - you've done great now feck off we don't like your ideas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
What role did Tom Jarman have before he stepped down?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Hmm interesting . Wonder what did for @pisteoff? Fraternising with the enemy? FWIW I think he's done more in portraying a positive image of the club as an open minded forward looking outfit than anyone else on these pages for years and even @gerry has grown up a bit by being set a higher bar.
Maybe it's entirely innocent but a very oddly worded communication - you've done great now feck off we don't like your ideas. |
Well I certainly thought pisteoff's posts here on sHs were positive and that he was looking for constructive input, which I think he received. If Pruman is correct in his statement that he (Tom Jarman/pisteoff) was removed after a vote of no confidence that does seem extraordinary. What on Earth is happening at SCGB? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I hope the further report promised to members by the end of this month will explain what is happening.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just a ping guys, and thanks for the interest / support.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| ... Well I certainly thought pisteoff's posts here on sHs were positive and that he was looking for constructive input, which I think he received. ... |
Me too. If their representation here was all as polite, reasonable and friendly then the organisation would have much better media relations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| chocksaway wrote: |
There do seem to be a few people on high who gloat over the difficulties of the SCGB, not sure why, both communities are dedicated to sliding up or downhill on snow or an artificial form of said substance. |
There were some very cheesed-off people who were suddenly cut off from their discussions when the SCGB closed its forum to non members. snowHeads was born as a consequence, and the bitterness carried on here for quite a while. It's mostly died down - but for some the rancour continues. Bit surprising really, because the restricting of the SCGB opened up through snowheads a free wheeling format which, overall has worked well - and the bashes evolved into unique holidays which also suit an awful lot of skiers and boarders.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| philwig wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| ... Well I certainly thought pisteoff's posts here on sHs were positive and that he was looking for constructive input, which I think he received. ... |
Me too. If their representation here was all as polite, reasonable and friendly then the organisation would have much better media relations. |
Most of them just show up on here to sl4g off snowheads. Envy is so unbecoming.
To come on here to cause arguments, take the pish n lower the tone is absolutely disgraceful...leaves less for me to do
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
What was behind the VONC? Members of the Council still demanding an impossible return to the “Leaders’ “ programme as it used to be? Does any of this impact the likelihood of the 2020/22 Freshtracks Programme?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@AL9000,
Solidaraity brother, if they want to come on here and stir up poo-poo then they should pay their dues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I'm hoping I don't have to chose one or the other - Just want to be able to ski with likeminded - and am very grateful when people are happy to show me around (aka lead) ... and happy to do so myself where appropriate. I feel like a "member" (or at least friend) of both, although I've not yet been on a bash ... looking forward to it one day ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@pisteoff, Appreciate you might not want to spill full gory details but do you have confidence SCGB is now headed in the right direction post your termination?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Nice question! I can't say much, other than not to believe everything you read. I guess a big part of the answer to your question is about how the club and I reconcile the underlying issue. I guess we'll see
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Nearly two months ago we heard this:
| Quote: |
When I accepted the position of interim Chairman of the Club in January 2020, I did so on the understanding that Council would address the significant governance and performance issues raised by members at the Club’s AGM in November 2019. At that meeting, the Club made a commitment to investigate and report to members how those issues arose, their impact on the Club’s reputation and financial standing, and how they would be addressed. This announcement is in the context of that agreement. I expect to write more fully on the matter in a letter to members later this month.
Trevor Campbell Davis
SCGB Chairman |
Unless I've missed it, doesn't look like the promised report has been forthcoming. By all accounts it is going to name names and pull no punches. Should be easy to write if it's all factual. So where is it and what's happened? Legal complications? Over on 'the other forum' some members are revolting (boom boom).
A Director says "although it might be a difficult read for certain individuals, emotion will not get in the way of full disclosure."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
English defamation law is known to be among the toughest in the world. I have little doubt that if the report will "pull no punches" significant members' funds are now being spent with solicitors to ensure that whatever is published can be defended on the basis of it being the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Levitt wrote: |
| English defamation law is known to be among the toughest in the world. I have little doubt that if the report will "pull no punches" significant members' funds are now being spent with solicitors to ensure that whatever is published can be defended on the basis of it being the truth. |
oh good- so glad I've cancelled my direct debit.
the SCGB (as with BASI it seems from other threads) have vanished right up their own back bottom.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I had an email from Freshtracks in May saying that some of next year's holidays would be available from early June and that the 2020/21 brochure would be out in July. I'm wondering if Freshtracks will be immune from this shitstorm?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@On the rocks, we are proceeding under the hope that next season will happen, along with the rest of the industry. What would you have done?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Gerry, That’s fully understandable regarding the Covid-19 shitstorm. I was more wondering about the impact of the SCGB’s internal shitstorm?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@On the rocks, oh that shitstorm. Under control now. Obviously there are still some issues that will appear in the next published accounts along with some ongoing parasitic financial drag courtesy of the appalling decisions made by the last Chairman and his CEO.
I hope those two are reading this and are feeling utterly ashamed about what they’ve done, airborne pigs not withstanding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Did the members ever get the report that Campbell Davies promised?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Did the members ever get the report that Mr. Campbell Davies promised? |
He's still working on it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
