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Ski Club of Great Britain Chief Exec resigns

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
…along with ‘Where do you see yourself in 5 years time’?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
iainm wrote:
There's a lot to unpack here. I don't think I'm informed enough on DG to ask about this. Maybe I can ask if the club is open to all?
Other comments:

- What can you do to ensure the Club is relevant?
- Is the only reason to join the club to access Fresh Tracks?
- Will there be a refund of membership post-lockdown?
- Could you expand on exactly what services a Social Rep will provide?
- How are you going to replace the membership by attracting younger skiers to join?

To avoid doubt, this should also cover, as @Dave of the Marmottes said above, what services previously offered they will now not provide. I don't want to just hear that they will of course offer social meet-ups in the evening, without clarification of anything / nothing on-snow.
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Listened to @iainms new podcast yesterday evening - Thanks for your work on it @iainm.

The key question for me was what does the SCGB see its role as in the 21st Cent. and while Gambrill comes across as someone aware of the scale of the problem facing him, if not necessarily the shape (SPOILER: He intends to Slay that Beast with market research. I suppose when you've got a hammer, all problems look like nails). Sure, he's only been in the job 5 weeks so lets see what happens.

My concern is, as he says in the interview "The SCGB isn't going to be for everyone" and, thats fine - play to your own strengths, but if they are going to want to increase the membership (25k quoted, I'd query the active percentage of that) but the club should be for Someone... and I'm pretty sure that they have a very limited grasp of who it is still for... Its not for Beginners - James says that. It doesn't feel like its for me or my family - Nothing for snowboarders, nor for kids or to make travelling with a family easier. Younger people - not really as they tried that and couldn't retain the new members. Lone older experts looking for someone to ski with? Perhaps?
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Thanks @Richard_Sideways - it's a bit longer than my usual interview, but listening back I felt it should all be included. It'll be interesting to see if they can pivot to a position that works for (enough) people

You can listen here (about 40 mins in) https://audioboom.com/posts/7898924-75-st-moritz-engadin-midsummer-skiing-in-glencoe-the-ski-club-of-great-britain
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
For the sake of fair n balanced reporting, when are Goldsmith and @Admin having their interview (not necessarily together)?
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Richard_Sideways wrote:
Listened to @iainms new podcast yesterday evening - Thanks for your work on it @iainm.

The key question for me was what does the SCGB see its role as in the 21st Cent. and while Gambrill comes across as someone aware of the scale of the problem facing him, if not necessarily the shape (SPOILER: He intends to Slay that Beast with market research. I suppose when you've got a hammer, all problems look like nails). Sure, he's only been in the job 5 weeks so lets see what happens.

My concern is, as he says in the interview "The SCGB isn't going to be for everyone" and, thats fine - play to your own strengths, but if they are going to want to increase the membership (25k quoted, I'd query the active percentage of that) but the club should be for Someone... and I'm pretty sure that they have a very limited grasp of who it is still for... Its not for Beginners - James says that. It doesn't feel like its for me or my family - Nothing for snowboarders, nor for kids or to make travelling with a family easier. Younger people - not really as they tried that and couldn't retain the new members. Lone older experts looking for someone to ski with? Perhaps?


Will have a listen. At least not being for everyone means there is some degree of self-awareness - but as you say if he couldn't articulate crisply and clearly who it is for then Council aren't exactly enabling their servant leader. Surely it's 101 for business plans and pitches these days to express who your target demographic is?


I'd suspect that Council probably regard "who it's for" as "jolly old clubby people like us, advanced skiers not short of a penny who regard value rather differently from cash cost"
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hmm....trusted voice, relied on to tell the truth. Can't help feel it's barking up the tree with ongoing aspirations as an info provider and in resort human wikipedia/booking agent.

Interesting - no such thing as social reps - they are just reps now and fine for skiing on a peer-to -peer group basis. Have to see how that plan survives contact with the enemy.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Richard_Sideways wrote:
club should be for Someone

This is the crux for me.

Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I'd suspect that Council probably regard "who it's for" as "jolly old clubby people like us, advanced skiers not short of a penny who regard value rather differently from cash cost"

One of the first questions is surely is it a commercial organisation or not. If it's not then there is no reason to target this group.


I've always been a bit of a cheater preferring to look at what others are doing or have done, picking my favoured model and modifying it to work better for me. So I don't know look at BMC for example and contrast/compare.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Layne, Does anyone do what the SCGB does in other sports? The BMC seems significantly different - though a ski club with a no strings fully comprehnsive insurance offering and political , lobbying clout on stuff like post pandemic travel and post Brexit long stay rights might be welcome.

I thought James revealed something in the expression that the SCGB was for people moving on from beginner status. I thought the implication sounded like- yeah it's not for those that already know the ropes everywhere as we have nothing incremental to offer such people. No doubt there are numbers in the keen but not jaded skier population so its not a bad strategy but you almost need to blow up old school clubbiness (and snobbery about ski levels) to reinvent for those progressers. Certainly there would be tension there.
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One take away from the interview was the the aims of Reps will be to facilitate peer skiing in groups of like minded and similar ability skiers. Just like Freshtracks without a guide or instructor. So keep and grow Freshtracks and set up a member’s Facebook ( or other platform) group. Slash the budget and subscription and they will come
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@Layne, Does anyone do what the SCGB does in other sports?

How about Cycling UK ? It is separate from British Cycling which is the national governing body.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@Layne, Does anyone do what the SCGB does in other sports?

I don't know - are we saying it's unique? What about Sailing/watersports? Field sports? I have no idea. My main other sport is volleyball where I see no similar or a need for one. We have an NGB of course.

I can't believe it's skiing or snowsports is unique or requires a unique kind of organisation.

Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
The BMC seems significantly different - though a ski club with a no strings fully comprehnsive insurance offering and political , lobbying clout on stuff like post pandemic travel and post Brexit long stay rights might be welcome.

Is it different because it needs to be or chooses to be? Is it better or worse? I don't know much about the BMC was just aware and thought it may be in some ways comparable.

Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I thought James revealed something in the expression that the SCGB was for people moving on from beginner status. I thought the implication sounded like- yeah it's not for those that already know the ropes everywhere as we have nothing incremental to offer such people. No doubt there are numbers in the keen but not jaded skier population so its not a bad strategy but you almost need to blow up old school clubbiness (and snobbery about ski levels) to reinvent for those progressers. Certainly there would be tension there.

Doesn't provide any clarity for me - can't say whether that is what he said or what you are saying. Will listen to the podcast in due course.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Layne, The BMC is a national governing body for a sport, the SCGB isn't.
snow conditions
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@rjs, the BMC is a national representative body, not a governing body
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@On the rocks, The BMC is the UK national governing body for competition climbing.
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Indeed, but the broad range of activities for which the BMC are Representative are much more akin to snow sports than the much narrower activity of indoor competition climbing that it Governs
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@On the rocks, I think the BMC is more like Snowsport England than SCGB.
snow report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Layne wrote:


Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I thought James revealed something in the expression that the SCGB was for people moving on from beginner status. I thought the implication sounded like- yeah it's not for those that already know the ropes everywhere as we have nothing incremental to offer such people. No doubt there are numbers in the keen but not jaded skier population so its not a bad strategy but you almost need to blow up old school clubbiness (and snobbery about ski levels) to reinvent for those progressers. Certainly there would be tension there.

Doesn't provide any clarity for me - can't say whether that is what he said or what you are saying. Will listen to the podcast in due course.


It is what he said but I'm not sure it was intentional. The clear statement was we're not for beginners but we;re for those people looking to move on in the next stage of their skiing as something they want to pursue. My inference was that means not those who have already moved on and know what they like and don't like, where to go, tricks of the trade etc. I can see that significant mid slice (in experience terms) could be a fruitful hunting ground - the people that might see value in SCGB's info brokerage role.

But that means the existing old hands need to welcome those newbies as equals and show them the ropes to be a club. Tellingly in the bit about non official social reps he referred to congregations of members in certain resorts almost exactly if he was talking about geezeronaires club.
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@Layne, Nothing similar in motorsport - you've got the MSA who specify rules and regulations of events and cars, and dole out the national licenses, and the FIA who do the same but on an international level. You have the BMRC who represent the interests of *Some* of the driver community (although they say all... its very much an old-boys club... your Bentley must be <-----> this grand to enter) and the local motor clubs to run and operate events and memberships according to the MSA/FIA regulations...

The only ones I can think of as comparable anywhere to the SCGB are maybe something like the Alpine Club or the Explorers Club.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I had a listen. I note he's "GM" not "CEO".
  1. Not losing money whilst being shut down for Covid is perhaps not remarkable when you're taking subscriptions and not delivering any services.
  2. Perhaps starting up or at least running one financially successful business should precede claims to be good at "looking after the numbers".
  3. "Market research". That sounds a lot like salesman speak for : "I really have no idea what we should be doing".

Quote:
... we're not for beginners but we're for those people looking to move on in the next stage of their skiing. ...

If the SCGB committee's aim is to sustain the "rep" service, beginners have no relevance.

Quote:
Have to see how that plan survives contact with the enemy.

Presumably they'll be no worse in Europe than they already are in North America.

The SCGB have sustained that business model for a number of years,
but the numbers have probably been getting worse.
ski holidays
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philwig wrote:
I had a listen. I note he's "GM" not "CEO".
  1. Not losing money whilst being shut down for Covid is perhaps not remarkable when you're taking subscriptions and not delivering any services.
  2. Perhaps starting up or at least running one financially successful business should precede claims to be good at "looking after the numbers".
  3. "Market research". That sounds a lot like salesman speak for : "I really have no idea what we should be doing".


I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. Sorry to shout, point 1 gets my goat

Other takeaways:

- "trusted voice / impartial / highly qualified information" This from an organisation that quotes a different membership figure every time it gets asked. This from an organisation that manages to add about one 'news' story every month at best. So 'impartial' that the 'news' is often at the behest of an advertiser. I just can't find a decent level of info on any resort on the website. It's just not a USP is it? It should be though.
- REPS / LEADERS / SOCIAL REPS - oh dear. Firstly, even though a page on the site is devoted to Social Reps, it gets kind of swept under the rug "Oh just a little social thing that happens in Val by accident etc" whereas it is actually a club strategy to lead via the back door IMHO. Then Leaders are described as being facilitators in resort and also themselves Members who just ski within a group un-uniformed and making group decisions Laughing ("nothing to see here M'Lud") - however, they might suggest good runs and restaurants etc - hold on! Isn't that acting as a leader? Tour operators don't let their reps go anywhere near customers on snow.
- Students / young people - they signed up a load but couldn't keep them as Members (or something like that). Actually I think they gave away 20,000 memberships to people who didn't know they'd become members.
- The Club sees itself as the step after being a beginner. Imagine banks thinking like that. Sign up the newbies, give it away if needs be, and keep 'em, that's the only way.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think it would be fine for members to ski for each other and make group decisions. As soon as you start charging and certifying one member via a training course then subsidizing them to partake in such skiing you start to have a problem. Maybe the reps' course needs to be a members' course for all members so they can all collectively make good decisions and so no one specific member has the monopoly on "leading" and avy safety. Obviously the SCGB feels different or has advice such that they think they can tread the fine line.


One wonders why exactly the following are necessary or prerequisites on a Mountain Safety and Leadership course for reps if they aren't doing any leading no siree.

Quote:


Ski Club Repping (led by Owen Chapman)

This module will aim to introduce candidates to what makes a great Ski Club Rep. It will look at different approaches to group management in all aspects of life and how we can bring that experience to the slopes. It will explore industry standard techniques on effective and safe group management with a mixture of off and on snow sessions throughout the two weeks.

We’ll start by looking at what makes a great rep, before moving on to looking at creating a team and how the rep impacts this process, how we can communicate better and how to manage and control groups.

All Terrain Leadership (led by Bruce Goodlad)

This on-snow module will look at effective leading and group management in variable and off piste terrain. It will explore the considerations we must make when travelling in off piste terrain, what equipment is needed when skiing away from the piste and how to ensure your group are safe.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:

One wonders why exactly the following are necessary or prerequisites on a Mountain Safety and Leadership course for reps if they aren't doing any leading no siree.

Quote:


Ski Club Repping (led by Owen Chapman)

This module will aim to introduce candidates to what makes a great Ski Club Rep. It will look at different approaches to group management in all aspects of life and how we can bring that experience to the slopes. It will explore industry standard techniques on effective and safe group management with a mixture of off and on snow sessions throughout the two weeks.

We’ll start by looking at what makes a great rep, before moving on to looking at creating a team and how the rep impacts this process, how we can communicate better and how to manage and control groups.

All Terrain Leadership (led by Bruce Goodlad)

This on-snow module will look at effective leading and group management in variable and off piste terrain. It will explore the considerations we must make when travelling in off piste terrain, what equipment is needed when skiing away from the piste and how to ensure your group are safe.


I think you've got to the crux of the matter here. On the one hand the SCGB is saying that the reps are not leaders and will not be leading groups of members on the snow, merely joining the group as another club member, yet the courses they run for reps are teaching on snow leadership skills! Sounds like they expect their reps to be a bit like Schrödinger's Cat, both leading and not leading at the same time.... Toofy Grin
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I'm not sure who would be convinced by such unsophisticated sophistry.

I think the term for it is 'cake-ism', as in having and eating at the same time. Sign up to an agreement but with your fingers crossed behind your back and a theatrical wink to those on the know.
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rjs wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@Layne, Does anyone do what the SCGB does in other sports?

How about Cycling UK ? It is separate from British Cycling which is the national governing body.


That was what I was thinking. Its what used to be the Cyclist Touring Club/CTC.

Active in cyclists rights and lobbying. Cheap membership (discount if in an affiliated local club) with inclusive 3rd party insurance (with upgrade options). Some,discounts. Regular newsletter. Lots of info for newcomers, equipment reviews (not just expensive bling). Route advice. Links to local clubs activities...
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
But at a similar price: £48 for Cycling UK, £50 for basic SCGB. (Or an extra £20 for access to Freshtracks / ILG / Reps / transceiver hire).
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I think the CTC is very different in terms of organisation though. Their bedrock is local clubs, with the national structure really just coordinating/ campaigning / providing some resources. Caving clubs work the same way with their regional bodies (eg CNCC etc) providing political/ legal backup, but not driving the clubs themselves. With cavers no one identifies as being a member of the regional bodies; with Cycling UK, many CTC local clubs still identify as the local CTC road club.

I think the difference in concept is hugely important, and it is that the SCGB is top-down.
In contrast the CTC and caving organisations are very much bottom-up. As an organisation it's more
like a company than a club.

If "Cycling UK" ceased to exist, all those local clubs would continue; the same with the CNCC.
The SCGB is more like a badly managed tour operator.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Alastair Pink wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:

One wonders why exactly the following are necessary or prerequisites on a Mountain Safety and Leadership course for reps if they aren't doing any leading no siree.

Quote:


Ski Club Repping (led by Owen Chapman)

This module will aim to introduce candidates to what makes a great Ski Club Rep. It will look at different approaches to group management in all aspects of life and how we can bring that experience to the slopes. It will explore industry standard techniques on effective and safe group management with a mixture of off and on snow sessions throughout the two weeks.

We’ll start by looking at what makes a great rep, before moving on to looking at creating a team and how the rep impacts this process, how we can communicate better and how to manage and control groups.

All Terrain Leadership (led by Bruce Goodlad)

This on-snow module will look at effective leading and group management in variable and off piste terrain. It will explore the considerations we must make when travelling in off piste terrain, what equipment is needed when skiing away from the piste and how to ensure your group are safe.


I think you've got to the crux of the matter here. On the one hand the SCGB is saying that the reps are not leaders and will not be leading groups of members on the snow, merely joining the group as another club member, yet the courses they run for reps are teaching on snow leadership skills! Sounds like they expect their reps to be a bit like Schrödinger's Cat, both leading and not leading at the same time.... Toofy Grin


Maybe iainm can invite James Gambrill here to explain it all Puzzled I suspect the concept of group decision making lasts as long as the first moderately inquisitive policeman.
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
philwig wrote:

...If "Cycling UK" ceased to exist, all those local clubs would continue...


True but despite that, they've addapted and are growing. Mainly by appealing to those new to cycling and targeting the less performance end of the spectrum (as ctc always has) have found a niche.
Surely those new to skiing would make a better or at least bigger target for SCGB than potential fresh tracks customers
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@adithorp, One of our local ski clubs states that they are "In association with SCGB", not sure what the benefits are of this are and I'm not interested in joining a purely recreational club anyway.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yes, I am very impressed with the CTC.

If the SCGB was looking for a business opportunity, perhaps they'd take a look at the beginner end
of the market simply because there are more beginners than experts. But that's not the SCGB's situation; that
market's probably shrinking; and it's unclear what they could hope to bring which isn't already available in
spades. Their competition would have less baggage and less to lose. It doesn't play to their existing advantages,
and it could easily put them in competition with potential partner organisations.

I think Mr Grambrill's correct to avoid that one. It still begs the question: what do they think they're for?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The other problem with targeting the beginner market is that they're only beginners for a short time. For any membership organisation the aim has to be to attract people and keep them for as long as possible, as it typically takes twice the effort and twice the cost to recruit a new member as it does to retain a current member. What's the follow-on offering? Beginners may want someone to recommend their next resort, or arrange a package for them, but once they've decided that resort X is ideal for them and they don't have to look for anywhere else, or have built a shortlist of places they like to ski and maybe a longer list of places they don't, what can SCGB add? Not everyone wants to ski a new resort every time. Not everyone has to ski alone or with strangers, or wants to - some of us have friends already wink while others gain friends as a result.

I'm a member of several organisations who were unable to offer anything during the 2020 season due to Covid. One offered the members the option of continuing to pay their membership fee despite not getting anything for it as a gesture of support for the club, with the alternative being to pay nothing, or to pay a reduced fee. 95% of members paid the full amount, and many expressed their thanks that they were asked. That's good membership service, and also a vote of confidence in the club and its administrators.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I go to the SCGB website and just can't see why I would join. I don't see any compelling reason to part with the cash for membership. If I compare it to https://www.skivictoria.com.au/ the SCGB is an industry marketing body, but who they are marketing is beyond me since it doesn't seem like they have much pull on the things that matter.
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@FrediKanoute, You’re clearly not posh enough. The ‘servicing’ from some of the reps/leaders is second to none.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
AL9000 wrote:
@FrediKanoute, You’re clearly not posh enough. The ‘servicing’ from some of the reps/leaders is second to none.


Mate, I did Kontiki.....more than enough points scored there Laughing
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AL9000 wrote:
@FrediKanoute, You’re clearly not posh enough. The ‘servicing’ from some of the reps/leaders is second to none.


Mate, I did Kontiki.....more than enough points scored there Laughing
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@FrediKanoute, Perhaps so - but did you also take your valet?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
philwig wrote:
Yes, I am very impressed with the CTC.

If the SCGB was looking for a business opportunity, perhaps they'd take a look at the beginner end
of the market simply because there are more beginners than experts. But that's not the SCGB's situation; that
market's probably shrinking; and it's unclear what they could hope to bring which isn't already available in
spades. Their competition would have less baggage and less to lose. It doesn't play to their existing advantages,
and it could easily put them in competition with potential partner organisations.

I think Mr Grambrill's correct to avoid that one. It still begs the question: what do they think they're for?


I bet even now some millennial or Gen Zer could knock up an app based offering that could draw people together into skiing with a social meeja angle through integration of a bunch of existing APIs and some micropayments/commissions/discounts that would be more than any appeal of the SCGB to beginners. I don't think there would be great riches in it unless you could take it global and expand it across activities but it could provide a decent living and maybe get you hired by someone else (like the SCGB rolling eyes ).

I'm just not convinced overall that there is even an intermediates category looking for the SCGB's assistance. I think of intermediates I know - young colleagues who are getting into go with mates or often have someone who has "done a season" in their circle, families often dad or mum is an experienced skier or knows someone to tap up for "what's X resort like" intel, even if I put myself as a billy no mates intermediate (I definitely was for some trips as an early but keen boarder) I just booked somewhere with shared accomodation and cracked on with whoever I met.

Mind you every year people happens on sHs and end up going on a bash and then assimilated into the hivemind that spends its time plotting against @gerry so I guess random luck might bring the SCGB a future.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:

so I guess random luck might bring the SCGB a future.


Nothing is random. There might exist a multiverse with DG running the SCGB and crushing SHs in terms of membership numbers, social media presence and snow-based articles.
snow conditions
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I bet even now some millennial or Gen Zer could knock up an app based offering etc
Absolutely they could but does anyone need such a 'club'? People tend to holiday in groups, meeting people in resort just happens, over the years we all fall into our own pattern and discounts are so last year. I had to laugh - the club are suggesting that free tix to the National Ski Show at the NEC are somehow a club benefit yet free tickets seems to be absolutely everywhere.

I agree that CTC, BMC and others are 'proper' clubs at very reasonable fees offering all kinds of tangible benefits or sometimes worthwhile intangibles. I joined the National Trust, for example, not for the free parking but because they look after stuff we should chip in to look after. To nick a Labour Party line, good clubs are about the many not the few but SCGB seems to be about the few who happen to have been on a Reps course and got the jacket.

The other one I'd put into the mix as a good example is Scottish Ski Club (established just 4 years after SCGB) who have four actual huts and a proper program for young racers run by ex-team members, plus a few events and an annual trip, run by volunteers. It's under £50 a year but having access to that hut on Cairngorm many many years back when the place was mobbed, was worth every penny and some. SCGB don't seem to have anything, it's an ex parrot.

It's the whole rep issue that amazes me. How come a random selection of skiers on this forum can see the myriad of holes in the plan, the legal perils, the ambiguity of the whole darn thing. It's not an anti-club / anti-Gerry thing either, it's just plain common sense. Only ILG has any merit but, to be honest, arranging that kind of thing yourself isn't exactly hard or necessarily more expensive.

Fresh Tracks amazes me too - you book a 2 grand trip to a second tier resort and, despite having staff and being a tour operator, they have you arrange your own flights. The website still has a section selling the chalets in Flaine but I seem to remember those being culled, or did I dream that. Probably another case of not bothering to update the site. The staff just don't love it.
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