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Ischgl under investigation

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@munich_irish, the Italians at the Wiesn know what they are getting themselves into. They pour over Brenner in droves in their camper vans with the sole purpose of getting getting completely shitfaced and going home to boast about it. No sympathy required. Although I doubt they will be doing that this year because I doubt there will be a Wiesn.
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@DanishRider, a pretty penny = a lot of money?!
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Steilhang wrote:
Mjit wrote:
Mr.Egg wrote:
also, how many times are cups & glasses washed properly? hot enough with detergent to kill the virus? Quite easily live on the glass for hours/days.


In the case of the Kitzloch, Ischgl's break-out point, very regularly. The bar staff never re-use glasses and they go straight in to the kitchen and in to the industrial dish washer. Well they did under the old owners and I'd be suprised if the new owners this year had changed the process.
The spread of the virus in Kitzloch was supposedly caused by the game of 'beer pong' where you have to spit a ping pong ball into a beer glass & win a schnapps if you get it in... Unfortunately they were reusing the same ping pong ball rolling eyes


Having seen, and taken part in, games of Beer Pong, I've never seen the ball been spat towards the target beer glasses.
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@Sitter, it probably tells you more about Kitzloch than beer pong per se
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Steilhang wrote:
Mjit wrote:
Mr.Egg wrote:
also, how many times are cups & glasses washed properly? hot enough with detergent to kill the virus? Quite easily live on the glass for hours/days.


In the case of the Kitzloch, Ischgl's break-out point, very regularly. The bar staff never re-use glasses and they go straight in to the kitchen and in to the industrial dish washer. Well they did under the old owners and I'd be suprised if the new owners this year had changed the process.
The spread of the virus in Kitzloch was supposedly caused by the game of 'beer pong' where you have to spit a ping pong ball into a beer glass & win a schnapps if you get it in... Unfortunately they were reusing the same ping pong ball rolling eyes


Yea, as someone who's spent many a happy apres session in the Kitzloch, both in peak and low season weeks I think people need to stop focusing on the "Beer Pong" and focus more on the "supposedly". I have seen many (and instigated a few) things in the Kitzloch but 'beer pong for a free schnapps' is not one of them. Hell, given how often a ping pong ball goes bouncing off across the floor in a normal game of Beer Pong/the number of feet usually in the Kitzloch I'd give each ball a life span of about, well 1 usage before going off to squished ping pong ball haven!

I'm not questioning the Kitzloch being a a great place to spread Covid-19, just wondering if the beer pong side came from fact or the slightly over-excited imagination of a journalist somewhere that's just become the source of some cheap copy/paste news stories...
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twoodwar wrote:
@DanishRider, a pretty penny = a lot of money?!


That's correct.
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Sitter wrote:
Steilhang wrote:
Mjit wrote:
Mr.Egg wrote:
also, how many times are cups & glasses washed properly? hot enough with detergent to kill the virus? Quite easily live on the glass for hours/days.


In the case of the Kitzloch, Ischgl's break-out point, very regularly. The bar staff never re-use glasses and they go straight in to the kitchen and in to the industrial dish washer. Well they did under the old owners and I'd be suprised if the new owners this year had changed the process.
The spread of the virus in Kitzloch was supposedly caused by the game of 'beer pong' where you have to spit a ping pong ball into a beer glass & win a schnapps if you get it in... Unfortunately they were reusing the same ping pong ball rolling eyes


Having seen, and taken part in, games of Beer Pong, I've never seen the ball been spat towards the target beer glasses.
Quote:
In Biergläser gespuckt
"Sie war gerammelt voll, die Leute sangen und tanzten auf den Tischen", berichtet der Engländer. "Die Leute waren heiß und verschwitzt vom Skifahren, und die Kellner haben zu Hunderten Shots an Tische gebracht. Es könnte kein besseres Zuhause für einen Virus geben."

Bland berichtet auch von Trinkspielen. Die Bar sei bekannt für "Beer-Pong" - ein Trinkspiel, bei dem Nachtschwärmer abwechselnd versuchen denselben Tischtennisball in ein Bierglas zu werfen. Manchmal werden die Bälle auch in den Mund genommen und gespuckt.

https://www.vol.at/saufspiele-und-speicheltausch-wie-ischgl-zur-corona-drehscheibe-wurde/6569180

One of a number of articles that mention this. Also the fact that the waiter in question used to have whistle which he would blow to clear a way for himself, and that guests would also blow the whistle for fun.
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Steilhang wrote:
Quote:
In Biergläser gespuckt
"Sie war gerammelt voll, die Leute sangen und tanzten auf den Tischen", berichtet der Engländer. "Die Leute waren heiß und verschwitzt vom Skifahren, und die Kellner haben zu Hunderten Shots an Tische gebracht. Es könnte kein besseres Zuhause für einen Virus geben."

Bland berichtet auch von Trinkspielen. Die Bar sei bekannt für "Beer-Pong" - ein Trinkspiel, bei dem Nachtschwärmer abwechselnd versuchen denselben Tischtennisball in ein Bierglas zu werfen. Manchmal werden die Bälle auch in den Mund genommen und gespuckt.

https://www.vol.at/saufspiele-und-speicheltausch-wie-ischgl-zur-corona-drehscheibe-wurde/6569180

One of a number of articles that mention this.


Remember what I said about cheap copy/paste new stories? According to Google Translate that article says "...According to the British media...", so this is NOT an article written based on an interview with Mr Bland but based on a report in the British media of an interview with Mr Bland - or possibly an edited version of an article based on one in another paper, based on a journalist's version of what was said in an interview with Mr Bland.

The first paragraph you quoted, talking about how rammed it was and the waiter service tallies with my experiences of the Kitzloch.
The second paragraph, talking about the bar being "known for Beer Pong"... Like I said many nights in the Kitzloch over many trips to Ischgl and I've never seen or heard even a suggestion of Beer Pong - and I've been there on a quite week where we were playing drinking game with the waiters, as they had nothing to do. Beer Pong wasn't even suggested as one of the drinking games. Just smacks of a journo' padding out an article and trying to make it more interesting than "It was so busy all you could do was stand there drinking beer and singing along to the music.".

Steilhang wrote:
Also the fact that the waiter in question used to have whistle which he would blow to clear a way for himself, and that guests would also blow the whistle for fun.


Ah, forget his name right now but known in our group a Lurch.
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Nemisis wrote:
@brianatab,
This makes me think of two common practices in the UK:
bar staff passing a pint glass to a customer (or just putting it on the counter) whilst holding it by the rim;
when glasses come out of the washer, instead of allowing them to dry off naturally, they are polished with a cloth, both the cloth and the hands holding the cloth probably being dirty.


It is certainly one way of spreading Norovirus especially the fingers on the rim of the glass part
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Video doing the rounds taken by a German dude following the bus and police convoy of German nationals returning from the quarantined parts of Austria commenting that they are refugees being escorted in to Germany despite borders being closed and having a bit of a rant. Has, rightfully, pissed off the German nationals on those busses as well as plenty of others.
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I've been in the Kizloch dozens of times and have never seen a game of beer pong. As for the waiters they all have whistles to help them through the crowd but never seen any of the clientele blow on them. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't happen.
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Austria unemployment today hit its highest level since WW2 and 1946.

Covid-19 has smashed the ski and tourist industry.
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Mjit wrote:
Steilhang wrote:
Quote:
In Biergläser gespuckt
"Sie war gerammelt voll, die Leute sangen und tanzten auf den Tischen", berichtet der Engländer. "Die Leute waren heiß und verschwitzt vom Skifahren, und die Kellner haben zu Hunderten Shots an Tische gebracht. Es könnte kein besseres Zuhause für einen Virus geben."

Bland berichtet auch von Trinkspielen. Die Bar sei bekannt für "Beer-Pong" - ein Trinkspiel, bei dem Nachtschwärmer abwechselnd versuchen denselben Tischtennisball in ein Bierglas zu werfen. Manchmal werden die Bälle auch in den Mund genommen und gespuckt.

https://www.vol.at/saufspiele-und-speicheltausch-wie-ischgl-zur-corona-drehscheibe-wurde/6569180

One of a number of articles that mention this.


Remember what I said about cheap copy/paste new stories? According to Google Translate that article says "...According to the British media...", so this is NOT an article written based on an interview with Mr Bland but based on a report in the British media of an interview with Mr Bland - or possibly an edited version of an article based on one in another paper, based on a journalist's version of what was said in an interview with Mr Bland.

The first paragraph you quoted, talking about how rammed it was and the waiter service tallies with my experiences of the Kitzloch.
The second paragraph, talking about the bar being "known for Beer Pong"... Like I said many nights in the Kitzloch over many trips to Ischgl and I've never seen or heard even a suggestion of Beer Pong - and I've been there on a quite week where we were playing drinking game with the waiters, as they had nothing to do. Beer Pong wasn't even suggested as one of the drinking games. Just smacks of a journo' padding out an article and trying to make it more interesting than "It was so busy all you could do was stand there drinking beer and singing along to the music.".

Steilhang wrote:
Also the fact that the waiter in question used to have whistle which he would blow to clear a way for himself, and that guests would also blow the whistle for fun.


Ah, forget his name right now but known in our group a Lurch.
what it actually says is that according to British media Mr. Bland may be patient zero in the UK. The account about beer pong in this case appears to come from Mr Bland... make of that what you will.
CNN reported the same thing, attributing the report to 'officials', but I guess they might all just be journos padding stuff out.
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 You know it makes sense.
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Bit on the Tiroler Tagezeitung live Corona ticker saying that Ischgl's patient zero wasn't the bar keeper, he was just the first person with symptoms to actually visit the doctor. They're saying it was a Swiss tourist back at the beginning of February (5th).

https://liveblog.tt.com/414/coronavirus
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@Sitter, the Swiss woman was not identified as actually having the virus until sometime later by which time it would have most likely spread to the residents of Ischgl as well as visitors. From memory 05.02 was before the cases in northern Italy were known about (memory might be wrong here) which does suggest that the speculation that the virus was circulating in ski resorts and other places such as London in mid January could well be correct.

Also given that we know many people, especially younger fitter people who go skiing, are essentially asymptomatic it is unlikely the Swiss woman was the first person to visit Ischgl to have the virus, she may well have caught it there.


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 2-04-20 10:46; edited 1 time in total
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Yes, they say it was weeks later when she tested positive. Interestingly, having followed what's been going on in Tirol, although there have been a number of deaths sadly (29 I think is the latest count), very few of those are from the quarantined areas. IIRC there's only one from St Anton. Maybe that the virus has been circulating amongst the younger residents/visitors and not getting to the older population prior to the lockdown, but in the non quarantined gemeinde there had been more mixing between the ages as things closed down relatively more gradually, dunno.
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@Sitter, also saw on that news blog that the first patient to be treated for the virus in intensive care in the Tirol was from St Anton. He was admitted on March 11th and is now on the way to a recovery.
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@munich_irish, Do you have a link to that St Anton intel? I'd be keen to read that.
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@Markymark29, https://liveblog.tt.com/414/coronavirus 09:31
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Scarlet wrote:
@Markymark29, https://liveblog.tt.com/414/coronavirus 09:31


8:31 if you're in the UK, the times are local to where you are rather than Austrian time.
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@Sitter, Ah yeah. But ye know, it's just a little bit of a challenge to help pass the time NehNeh
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Scarlet wrote:
@Markymark29, https://liveblog.tt.com/414/coronavirus 09:31


This link is saying that the corona patient zero in Tirol was a swiss woman who was first ill on 5 Feb but wasn't tested positive until 9 March. Can't see any reference to St Anton. Looks like it started in Ischgl but the male bartender thought to have started it wasn't patient zero.


This link says a man from St Anton was in intensive care since 11 March.
https://www.kleinezeitung.at/international/corona/5794607/Coronavirus_Erster-Tiroler-Intensivpatient-wieder-auf-Normalstation
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@DB, https://liveblog.tt.com/414/coronavirus/65674/covid-19-patient-konnte-intensivstation-verlassen same thing as the link you posted. Earlier on the TT blog they reported on a press conference with various bods from the Tirol administration who explained the Ischgl knowledge as per the various posts above. The St Anton thing was simply because the separate report was in the list of reports.
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@DB, if you scroll down through the liveblog in that link that both Scarlet and I have posted, you'll get to the bit about the 43 yr old from St Anton.
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Thanks guys, the St Anton link had scrolled off the page and I needed to press the green button a few times to see news items from earlier in the day.
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DB wrote:
Scarlet wrote:
@Markymark29, https://liveblog.tt.com/414/coronavirus 09:31


This link is saying that the corona patient zero in Tirol was a swiss woman who was first ill on 5 Feb but wasn't tested positive until 9 March. Can't see any reference to St Anton. Looks like it started in Ischgl but the male bartender thought to have started it wasn't patient zero.


This link says a man from St Anton was in intensive care since 11 March.
https://www.kleinezeitung.at/international/corona/5794607/Coronavirus_Erster-Tiroler-Intensivpatient-wieder-auf-Normalstation


Health minister (Anschober) has issued a correction to the earlier conference, turns out it was 5th March and not Feb, which fits much better with a positive test on the 9th.
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Not sure what the timeline of confirmed cases and fatalities is between the Tirol and the UK, but earlier today NHS England confirmed (Guardian report) that the first Covid-19 fatality in the UK occurred before March (a fatality in a Liverpool hospital) and there were at least six fatalities in the UK before 5 March.
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Around March 12th I think was the first death
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Sitter wrote:
Around March 12th I think was the first death
In the Tirol?
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rob@rar wrote:
Sitter wrote:
Around March 12th I think was the first death
In the Tirol?


19th March, it was the, so far, only death from St Anton, somebody with a pre-existing condition and they only tested for corona after his death due to the number of cases in the area. The death on the 12th was in Vienna.

https://www.tirol.gv.at/presse/meldungen/meldung/artikel/coronavirus-zwei-todesfaelle-in-tirol/
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@Sitter, thanks.
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https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ischgl-austria-a-corona-hotspot-in-the-alps-spread-virus-across-europe-a-32b17b76-14df-4f37-bfcf-39d2ceee92ec?fbclid=IwAR17N-C2sJ8FVP7Xhte_3TKLIagzZ2McPoQJWBYrL7BjtE_TtokNaX0nSxs

Another article about the development in Ischgl
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http://youtube.com/v/LjEla5Lw_TI&list=RDLjEla5Lw_TI&start_radio=1
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@Woosh, that article was originally behind a paywall on spiegel.de (I dont subscribe) good it is now freely available in English. There is a certain smug "wise after the event" feel about the article but it does highlight the connection between the vast sums of money that are generated in Ischgl and elsewhere by ski tourism and Austrian politics. At a guess of an average cost / night / bed of €150 (probably on the low side), income from selling hotel rooms would be north of €200 million per year just from the hotel rooms let alone all the other activities. This suggests total "turnover" from Ischgl could well be around €400 million, even if that is an overestimate, that's an awful lot of money from an Alpine "theme park" in a small village in a remote valley.

Similar criticisms can be made over the Liverpool - Atletico game and the Cheltenham festival, both went ahead with the full agreement of the relevant government departments. In both cases there are now many stories of people who probably came in contact with the virus as a result of their visits. There are plenty of other examples too.
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Covid-19 likes to party.

Ischgl... Cheltenham... Mardi Gras...
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rob@rar wrote:
Not sure what the timeline of confirmed cases and fatalities is between the Tirol and the UK, but earlier today NHS England confirmed (Guardian report) that the first Covid-19 fatality in the UK occurred before March (a fatality in a Liverpool hospital) and there were at least six fatalities in the UK before 5 March.


Latest tests are apparently showing that the first case in France was now 27th December, so all the calculations and timelines could be utter BS.
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The thing I find most remarkable about this story is that Iceland identified a significant number of Covid -19 cases using simply IR thermometers at the airport.
Something, do this day, I don't think the UK government has been doing.
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cameronphillips2000 wrote:
The thing I find most remarkable about this story is that Iceland identified a significant number of Covid -19 cases using simply IR thermometers at the airport.
Something, do this day, I don't think the UK government has been doing.


I didn't think of that. When I went to Japan last season (Jan/Feb 2019) everyone was checked entering one of the airports (Haneda I think) at the passport control area. Fairly simple to set up I'd Imagine.
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The only thing airport thermometer scanning does is makes people FEEL safer, it doesn't actually MAKE them any safer.

OK, so Iceland detected people with a Covid-19 feaver arriving at the airport. At this point they should have locked down the whole airport, stopped all flights in and out, traced everyone in the airport at the same time, even if on different flights, and anyone they had contacted since leaving the airport. THAT would have helped slow the spread of Covid, but I'm guessing what they actually did was just took those people aside and treated/isolated them, and let everyone else go on their way and the cleaners on for a quick rubbish pick and wave of (the same) damp cloth over the seat back tables before packing it with another load of people.
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Mjit wrote:
The only thing airport thermometer scanning does is makes people FEEL safer, it doesn't actually MAKE them any safer.

OK, so Iceland detected people with a Covid-19 feaver arriving at the airport. At this point they should have locked down the whole airport, stopped all flights in and out, traced everyone in the airport at the same time, even if on different flights, and anyone they had contacted since leaving the airport. THAT would have helped slow the spread of Covid, but I'm guessing what they actually did was just took those people aside and treated/isolated them, and let everyone else go on their way and the cleaners on for a quick rubbish pick and wave of (the same) damp cloth over the seat back tables before packing it with another load of people.


Detecting people with Covid-19 makes everybody else a lot safer. Sorry to be so blunt but not exactly rocket science. For the last months, every scientist, in every country says it's all about testing. If you can't test everyone all the time using accurate swab testing then IR thermometer testing is better than nothing. Austria kept infection rates low. They temperature tested all coming in forom Italy in the early days. Iceland stopped a bunch of Covid - 19 carriers from going out to shops, bars, parks etc. The infected people could have spread the disease quickly throughout eh whole country.

Early warning ssytems don't fight enemies/ But it helps you know where they are. IR testing has proved surprisingly accurate at finding cases.
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