 Poster: A snowHead
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| Travelmole wrote: |
| ABTA is calling on the Government to follow the European Commission in encouraging customers to accept credit notes for package holidays cancelled due to the coronavirus, as long as they can ask for a refund later if they don't use them. |
The majority of the news on specialist travel industry news-feed Travelmole seems to be about companies dropping staff and scaling back. There's already anecdotal news on the forum of people ceasing trading. The travel industry as a whole is taking a beating.
Today's headlines:
Hays staff told to work only every other week
TUI cuts pay and working hours of all non-retail staff
Kuoni confirms 70 head office and retail job losses just hours after asking staff to take pay cuts
Midcounties Co-operative staff to be redeployed in food stores
A lot of these companies, while technically solvent, may not have the liquid assets to perform an 'instant reset' and pay every one of their clients back in cash while receiving virtually no ongoing bookings.
In that context this may seem a sensible compromise?
https://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?c=setreg®ion=2&m_id=s~dmnT_T_&w_id=37324&news_id=2041943
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 20-03-20 13:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'll be taking "credit notes" for cancelled theatre bookings - but that's around £900, some holiday costs will be a lot higher.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Am I wrong to think of a credit note or voucher simply as a delayed refund? If I take a voucher for a booking which has to be cancelled and then use that for a future booking, at that point the vendor will be providing me a service which they will be unable to sell to a customer for new cash. Am I missing something obvious?
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 20-03-20 13:46; edited 1 time in total
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@rob@rar, in essence yes, but what it stops is the immediate out flowing of cash that needed to keep a business going. To paraphrase Peter Jones.
Profit and loss will kill you slowly, cashflow will kill you quickly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
@rob@rar, in essence yes, but what it stops is the immediate out flowing of cash that needed to keep a business going. To paraphrase Peter Jones.
Profit and loss will kill you slowly, cashflow will kill you quickly. |
Yes, and for that reason I'm happy to accept credit. The money has already left my account, so it won't change what I can spend this month or next on essentials or luxury items. I suppose there's a risk that the businesses I hold credit with will go bankrupt and the chance of me recovering any of that credit is probably nil. But as this situation does not affect what I can spend this month or next on essentials or luxury items it's a risk I'm prepared to take in order to provide a very small amount of help to places I'd like to see survive the horror show that is facing all but the most cash-rich businesses.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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So if customers are content to have neither a refund nor a credit note, all the better! But perhaps most of us are not that altruistic - or, however altruistic, think there are more deserving causes.
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| pam w wrote: |
| So if customers are content to have neither a refund nor a credit note, all the better! But perhaps most of us are not that altruistic - or, however altruistic, think there are more deserving causes. |
If you want to make a donation to a business which is also a registered charity (some theatres are, for example) it's best to do it as a donation on which Gift Aid can be claimed, rather than failing to claim a refund/credit which is not subject to Gift Aid.
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The key here is ensuring that the credit note is underwritten in the same way bookings are. Also, the expiry date should considered. It may well not be possible for someone to book a holiday within a set period.
Being able to cash in at a subsequent date isn't a bad idea.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ansta1,
Or profit and loss are a matter of professional opinion; cash flow is a matter of hard fact!
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| sno trax wrote: |
| The key here is ensuring that the credit note is underwritten in the same way bookings are. Also, the expiry date should considered. It may well not be possible for someone to book a holiday within a set period. |
This is the reason I opted for a cash refund from Eurostar. At the time my bookings were cancelled the voucher they offered for future bookings had an expiry date of 12 December, so useless for Ski Train bookings. As a result I claimed a cash refund, although the expiry date for Ski Train refund vouchers has subsequently been extended to cover any service during the 2020/21 ski season.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| So if customers are content to have neither a refund nor a credit note, all the better! But perhaps most of us are not that altruistic - or, however altruistic, think there are more deserving causes. |
If you want to make a donation to a business which is also a registered charity (some theatres are, for example) it's best to do it as a donation on which Gift Aid can be claimed, rather than failing to claim a refund/credit which is not subject to Gift Aid. |
Yes, I'm Gift Aiding my ticket costs where possible. If the promoter is a charity, I'm less inclined to request a refund anyway. I'm a bit unsure about Glynde (who've so far only cancelled up to a date which is earlier than my planned visit): yes, they're a charity, with no public subsidy save for the touring programme, but they are pretty wealthy and the tickets cost an arm and a leg!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Not sure that its fair in this situation for businesses to have to even provide credit notes, or certainly not to the full value. Its not like they have been unscrupulous, or poorly run. Neither customer nor business are "at fault" for the cancellation - although customers don't appear to view it that way. Is it morally right that a small number of businesses meet all the cost, rather than at least partially spreading it around a much larger pool of customers?
If customers continue to push for full refunds/credit notes, it wouldn't surprise me if consumer protection laws are downgraded, to say that when neither party is at fault, as is the case this year, then losses should be shared.
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Completely agree that we don't to see any company go out of business due to this - I've tried to ask for bookings to be rescheduled to next year which I believe will help keep the cash in the business, and hopefully buy the business enough time to rebuild. Macron (and Boris to a certain extent) has stated 'no company will go out of business' due to this, although who knows what that actually entails. Unfortunately he hasn't said that 'no customer will be out of pocket' due to this.
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You know it makes sense.
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The problem I see is that, without state support, in many cases taking a credit note simply slows the rate at which a business goes under, it doesn't change the outcome. Either way, they've lost out on a chunk of cash flow.
If we all take credit notes, then in the Autumn, when ski businesses expect strong cash inflows, they will be much lower (as people utilise credit notes rather than paying cash) and they will struggle to meet their obligations to their own suppliers. Unless they are going to be materially more profitable next season, then they still run out of cash.
I suspect many will choose to go out of business, leave customers to fall back on credit card/insurance, and restart without a tail of liabilities. They will have a competitive advantage over any supplier that is trying to repay a pile of credit notes and cover its liabilities.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think if they are going to get general acceptance then I think they are going to have to get the government to step up with bonding as ABTA etc bonding is probably worth less than bog roll at the moment. Many many people will not be looking for credit from a business which might go bust by the time that credit can be used. If you disagree I've some Woolworth's vouchers I'm sure you'll be happy to buy at par.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowdave wrote: |
| ..... taking a credit note simply slows the rate at which a business goes under, it doesn't change the outcome. |
That is absolutely correct, the insolvency practitioners will be deluged right now with people carefully planning pre-pack administrations. The ONLY time to get money, any money, out of a tour operator is RIGHT NOW. With hotels and apartments it is highly unlikely they have paid for your stay yet so, in theory and according to the law, your money should be safeguarded. I would not be accepting a credit note from anyone, there's a good chance it'll be worthless.
The other trick being played is what I would call 'double bubble' - the tour op has your money but has no intention of paying the supplier for services not rendered. They then encourage you to claim on insurance or give up or accept some incentive to rebook down the line which may or may not be possible. If successful they make a killing. GET YOUR MONEY BACK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Feels like it's all a lose lose scenario. My neighbour has just been made redundant and my girlfriend has been advised that she may have to go down to 3 days a week. Suddenly what may have been seen as 'sunk' costs previously, might become quite important cash to families.
edit: and these jobs aren't in companies in the travel industry.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 20-03-20 16:41; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Pruman, agreed, and to put this in context, in Tui's last set of accounts my reading is that there were €1.1bn of advance payments made to suppliers (mainly hotels) against €2.9bn of customer receipts on the balance sheet.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Crystal have gone from an initial position of “a full refund in 14 days” to “we will try to make all refunds by end April”.
The delay is blamed on a huge workload in processing refunds (plus presumably a much reduced staff).
Plus they are actively calling all customers due a refund to talk about moving bookings to next season.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| Is it morally right that a small number of businesses meet all the cost, rather than at least partially spreading it around a much larger pool of customers? |
Generally it's not a small number of businesses meeting all the costs though, but rather a large number of small businesses doing it. My trip with Crystal was cancelled and they said a refund was on its way right from the first notification email (hit my bank account today as it happens). Great for me - but I also know they're only taking this route with their customers because on the flip side they are turning round to the hotel and saying "Yea, we're not going to be paying you anything for the rest of the season. See you next year if you're still in business.".
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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In general, I would not mind taking a credit note with reasonable duation (say 2 years) for a cancelled trip as opposed to a cash refund as long as there was a backing from someone reliable that in the event that the supplier was unable to honour that credit note, I could recop the value in another format. I am in the fortunate situation that whilst a cash refund is desirable, it is not essential for the amounts under consideration and my work is likely to be in demand for the forseeable future for financial security. If there was some security that if the company went bust, I would not loose the whole value of the credit.
I have three trips booked and paid for to a degree in the next 4 months. My plan is to push for cash refunds from the larger suppliers (Ryanair/BA/Jet2) should the need arise but for the two smaller travel companies with whom I have aspects of these trips booked, I would accept a credit note for part or the whole of the current amount I have paid them. I doubt me seeking a refund in cash from the above will make them insolvent and they are likely to bailed out/taken over if they were. With smaller companies, I presumably am a larger part of their business and so that cash will mean more to them. If I get cash from the larger business then the potential loss of cash/voucher from the smaller ones is easier to bear. Obviously this is decided based on my situation and others' situation may be very different so there is not a one size fits all policy!
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I would happily accept this and arrange to use the accommodation in Val D'Isere next season, we've been to the same place the last 3 years. However SkiFrance (Madames Vacances UK arm) are not even entertaining this option, or refunds, just keep straight batting it back to me - you sort it out with your travel insurance. So I hope they are paying their staff until the end of the season if they are keeping everyone's money!
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| ecureuil wrote: |
Not sure that its fair in this situation for businesses to have to even provide credit notes, or certainly not to the full value. Its not like they have been unscrupulous, or poorly run. Neither customer nor business are "at fault" for the cancellation - although customers don't appear to view it that way. Is it morally right that a small number of businesses meet all the cost, rather than at least partially spreading it around a much larger pool of customers?
If customers continue to push for full refunds/credit notes, it wouldn't surprise me if consumer protection laws are downgraded, to say that when neither party is at fault, as is the case this year, then losses should be shared. |
What you say totally makes sense for travel companies, hotels, etc. Surely this is the point of travel insurance though? I'd like to see the rules tightened so problems like this land firmly with travel insurers unless they are clearly excluded at the time of purchase (small print doesn't count). If that means insurance premiums need to rise then I'm fine with that - travel insurance is very cheap at the moment.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Advice and suggestions is one thing, unless there’s guarantees to refund the customer in case the TO goes bust in the turmoil, it’s an unreasonable request for the customer to bear the burden of the potential fallout.
With an ironclad guarantee? I bet more than 1/2 of the customers WILL take credit instead of cash.
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Having booked a DIY holiday in Greece for April I was expecting to submit a claim to my insurers. In fact nearly all the suppliers have given refunds and one (airport parking) is giving a credit note, even though the booking was at the non-refundable price. I feel my friendly hotel owners in Greece are the victims and my insurers are very lucky, especially as further travel abroad seems unlikely this year. These are strange times.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Booking.com gave us a full refund for trip to Athens...£30 profit!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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small print doesn't count
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eh?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
small print doesn't count
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eh? |
I'm describing what I'd like the rules to be, not what they are now. I'd like all travel insurance to cover supplier failure and resort closure as standard, and if they are excluded for any reason that should be very clear before the insurance is purchased. If it's buried in the small print then most people won't read it before purchasing insurance.
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You know it makes sense.
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| thelem wrote: |
| ... I'd like all travel insurance to cover supplier failure and resort closure as standard, and if they are excluded for any reason that should be very clear before the insurance is purchased. ... |
I agree with the bolded. But travel insurance offers such a wide variety of cover that I don't think saying it must include this or that is helpful. Some people are really not bothered about cancellation, baggage loss/damage, loss/theft of belongings etc - they primarily just want medical/accident cover, repatriation, and third party liability. Others want, and are prepared to pay for, the full package.
Even "supplier failure and resort closure" would have different interpretations: some might cover when a decision is made by the supplier/resort, but not where it is imposed by a government. I doubt whether in future you will be able to get any cover against cancellation/closure when it is imposed on the suppliers as a result of a pandemic - it is almost impossible for insurers to price.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
small print doesn't count
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eh? |
I think that may have been short for an unfair contract term (which is of course a complicated subject in itself.)
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Poster: A snowHead
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If you were to accept a credit note that was to be used by end of next ski season and the tour operator went into administration would you still be able to claim from your credit card - taking into consideration the original purchase was made up to 12-13 months earlier?
Also noting that our current annual travel insurance does not have supplier insolvency.
Just trying to weigh up taking credit note versus claiming on insurance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I think that may have been short for an unfair contract term (which is of course a complicated subject in itself.)
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Yes, perhaps so. I once sat through an absolutely brilliant two-day training course on the basics of contract law - the most useful training I've ever done in my life and one which helped me restructure the way a good deal of British aid in the Pacific was managed!! It helped that my boss had been on the same training course. It came in useful again just this week. We are looking to help the Franchisee in our sailing club, who provides food and drink, through the lean times of social distancing. One of my colleagues - a bright and sensible woman - said (in response to my suggestion that we need a rolling contract) that we shouldn't have a contract, but an "Agreement" as it would just set out how we could help, provided he took certain steps to mitigate losses. including calling on all available Government assistance. My insistence that that would, indeed, be a contract, fell on deaf ears  so I said I had no objection at all to calling it an "agreement" if that helped.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dippy wrote: |
If you were to accept a credit note that was to be used by end of next ski season and the tour operator went into administration would you still be able to claim from your credit card - taking into consideration the original purchase was made up to 12-13 months earlier?
Also noting that our current annual travel insurance does not have supplier insolvency.
Just trying to weigh up taking credit note versus claiming on insurance. |
I very much doubt your credit card provider will be interested if you don't claim in a timely manner. And they would have no way of knowing you had accepted a 'voucher'.
Seriously, repeating what I said above, if the tour op wasn't able to deliver you the services you paid for, they owe you a full refund. OK, the law wasn't exactly designed with pandemics in mind but that still doesn't change the facts that (a) your money is meant to be protected until your holiday is over and (b) the tour op almost certainly won't have paid the suppliers yet so they still have your money.
Brands and logos might stay the same but you can bet your life that the Ltd companies behind some of those brands will change. Company directors may well take the opportunity to jettison loads of debt or liabilities by crashing the Ltd company, buying back the assets on the cheap and phoenixing under a new clean Ltd company. Credit notes are possibly worthless and the attitude you should adopt is that the money is better off in your account now. You have no idea how long this is going on for.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Pruman, Noted and agreed.
Will attempt to get a full refund ASAP - insurance have already advised my son does have cover, so therefore a valid claim, he would just lose the £60 excess
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I saw the BBC travel guru saying don't take a credit note!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| sno trax wrote: |
| The key here is ensuring that the credit note is underwritten in the same way bookings are. Also, the expiry date should considered. It may well not be possible for someone to book a holiday within a set period. |
This is the reason I opted for a cash refund from Eurostar. |
Are you issuing cash refunds or are you going to keep the money and accept the reputational damage?
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| Gerry wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| sno trax wrote: |
| The key here is ensuring that the credit note is underwritten in the same way bookings are. Also, the expiry date should considered. It may well not be possible for someone to book a holiday within a set period. |
This is the reason I opted for a cash refund from Eurostar. |
Are you issuing cash refunds or are you going to keep the money and accept the reputational damage? |
I'm not sure that Eurostar's reputitional damage, not that I think they have any, is my concern.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| sno trax wrote: |
| The key here is ensuring that the credit note is underwritten in the same way bookings are. Also, the expiry date should considered. It may well not be possible for someone to book a holiday within a set period. |
This is the reason I opted for a cash refund from Eurostar. |
Are you issuing cash refunds or are you going to keep the money and accept the reputational damage? |
I'm not sure that Eurostar's reputitional damage, not that I think they have any, is my concern. |
Are you going to refund your customers their cash in full?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I feel sorry for decent companies caught up in this disaster - and I certainly appreciate the scale of the economic impact - but it is fascinating to see the EU watering down consumer rights.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| sno trax wrote: |
| The key here is ensuring that the credit note is underwritten in the same way bookings are. Also, the expiry date should considered. It may well not be possible for someone to book a holiday within a set period. |
This is the reason I opted for a cash refund from Eurostar. |
Are you issuing cash refunds or are you going to keep the money and accept the reputational damage? |
I'm not sure that Eurostar's reputitional damage, not that I think they have any, is my concern. |
Are you going to refund your customers their cash in full? |
Yes, we didn't have many bookings so was able to complete everything before the lockdown, except for one booking which was refunded. I take the view that I should offer what I expect in return.
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FAQ
