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Ischgl was the secret virus hub in Europe (Important Info)t

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Dave of the Marmottes, already in the 1970ies Lech deliberately chose against “Tyrolean” après ski
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Langerzug, "cheap" does not have to mean that the cost of staying / skiing there is low, tawdry might be another word. Definitely not something that could be said about Lech.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@munich_irish, You have either not followed this or do not understand....
The Ischgl regime were aware of "a virus" in their community at least 7-10 days before they took any action ..
They were even warned by a senior political figure about the consequences for the overall ski industry in Austria..

I heard about the incompetent scandalous decisions to allow horse Racing and
Football matches to continue in the UK but I also blame the braindead idiots who attended becuase the news about the
dangers of this virus was already out there for a few weeks so they still attended then spread it all around there home towns.
Everyone in the can now see the results of their stupidity...

With love from the Third World .. Young Vietnamese kids donating their savings to the UK Shocked Shocked

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/two-vietnamese-children-donate-20-140816471.html

....and it appears even after all the last week weeks official Government campaigning there are still
more foolhardy morons who simply do not get it.....

https://twitter.com/MichelleDewbs/status/1253655600417984514

Here in Austria we are getting back to semi-normal....except cross border crossings to Switzerland can become expensive Very Happy
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@stanton, I have been following all of this since at least the middle of February. Although it now appears that the first cases of the virus were present in Ischgl and elsewhere in Europe in the middle of January the first confirmed case in Ischgl was not until the 9th or 10th March (the Swiss woman referenced either earlier in this thread or another similar one). If that information is correct then the authorities in Ischgl / Tirol actually took pretty prompt action given that the closedown was announced on the 11th and the quarantine imposed on the 13th. This was a good deal quicker than in most other countries. There were various rumours flying around before that point, there was a brit who was posting here from Saalbach were he was quarantined in a hotel. There was also the story about the Norwegian (?) in Pettneu.

A simple look at the various figures shows that Austria has one of the lowest levels of infection in Europe and has been just about the first country who has followed the "lockdown" route to start to reopen. That does not really suggest that those in charge made a total mess of things. Perhaps compare to the situation in parts of northern Italy or the care homes in Spain, UK, France etc and what happened in the Tirol was pretty minor. As you can see I have no love lost whatsoever for the folks who own and run Ischgl but it is far too simplistic to blame a few greedy bar owners for the spread of the virus.
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@munich_irish, you overlook to mention that Icelandic health authorities reported cases of covid transmitted in Ischgl to Austrian counterparts. To not give all due investigation to such a serious concern from such an official body hardly defensible!!
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China = coverup.
Ischgl = coverup.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If it was the USA they'd just all have been told to drink some disinfectant and the whole thing would have been sorted out promptly, no probs. Us Europeans just don't have a clue.
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gwatts10 wrote:
ischgl has great slopes great uplift great mountain restaurants and yes a great apres ski scene , why change it has something for everyone


Yep, I never really tried the apres there but certainly liked the food, slopes, facilities and lifts
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peanuthead wrote:
@munich_irish, you overlook to mention that Icelandic health authorities reported cases of covid transmitted in Ischgl to Austrian counterparts. To not give all due investigation to such a serious concern from such an official body hardly defensible!!


OK, let's include that too then. Now we have:

05-MAR-20 - Iceland reports people who had been in Ischgl (and other parts of Austria/on 2 international flights) had been confirmed with Covid19.
06-MAR-20 - A quick game of "It wasn't our Austrian ski resort, it was your Icelandic aircraft"/"It wasn't our Icelandic aircraft, it was your Austrian ski resort" blaim tennis is played.
07-MAR-20 - First case confirmed in Ischgl (member of staff at the Kitzloch).
08-MAR-20 (from memory) - Kitzloch closes kitchens/restaurant and just runs as an apres bar with new staff.
09-MAR-20 - Other (old) staff from Kitzloch test positive, confirming some spread.
10-MAR-20 - Kitzloch closes.
11-MAR-20 } I think authorities generally try and work out what to do next. Lock down the resort, trapping guest miles from home/family and often in just hotel rooms (as opposed to their whole houses).
12-MAR-20 } Or do you evacuate - but then how to transport possibly infected people, plus no flights home for most till the Sat.
13-MAR-20 - Ischgl enters lockdown, deciding risk of transporting people too great.
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@Mjit, presumably if Austrian authorities had heeded Icelandic warning, coming as it did from their Public Health Dept (!), and immediately doing appropriate contact tracing, they would have been immediately suspicious of Kitzloch being source and possibly closing it, on the 5th *

Therefore anyone who visited that bar between 6th and 9th and got Covid may have case

* obviously I have no access to or knowledge of what will come out in investigation. But definitely how the Austrians managed it was not ok
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Kitzloch

Is planning to Open next season, weather there are any customers is another thing....

Germans are likely to boycott Ischgl in huge numbers

https://www.salzburg24.at/news/oesterreich/ischgl-kitzloch-wirt-will-wieder-aufsperren-86790034
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@peanuthead, so another country claims their Covid cases are part of your countries fault and, despite having zero cases actually in that area you lock down the entire town? Do you really think ANY country would/did do that? Did Italy lock down all their ski resorts as soon as their was a single case reported related to one of them? No, they let people travel from resorts with multipel cases to other ski resorts in other countries (that's how Saalbach got it's first cases for example).

Could Ischgl have handled things better and reacted faster? Well with hindsight obviously yes, but then if UK government had implemented full lockdown on Feb 1st, the day after the UK's first confirmed Covid case, the UK Covid death toll would be much lower than it is. Does this mean everyone who contracted Covid inside the UK has a case against the UK government?

@stanton, unless we retry this year's missed Saalbach trip next year we'll probably be in Ischgl in March, and in the Kitzloch Sat/Mon/Wed/Fri nights. It's completely stupid to boycott a business just because it happened to be related to people passing a virus in the past. Sure, if you go there and everyone's caughing and sneezing you might want to give it a miss but if not it's still going to be one of the best apres bars in the world.
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@Mjit, You'll be giving the beer pong a miss though ?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It is a bit early to be making predictions about next season. @stanton, Given Herr Kurz's comments about a new approach to apres ski perhaps the "village" will welcome a reduction in visitor numbers.

It does seem that tales about "beer pong" were just that, tall stories. No doubt plenty of stupid drunken carry on but games involving spitting ping pong balls around does not actually seem to be one of them.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
There is a striking difference in the way the two cases in the Grand Hotel Europa in Innsbruck were handled (immediate and complete closure) and the way Kitzloch/Ischgl was handled...
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
There is a striking difference in the way the two cases in the Grand Hotel Europa in Innsbruck were handled (immediate and complete closure)
Really?? Shocked When was that? Mrs MA & I had a very pleasant overnight stay there on 13 March (after 5 days of ski touring). Lovely place - and a fantastic breakfast NehNeh
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
mountainaddict wrote:
Quote:
There is a striking difference in the way the two cases in the Grand Hotel Europa in Innsbruck were handled (immediate and complete closure)
Really?? Shocked When was that? Mrs MA & I had a very pleasant overnight stay there on 13 March (after 5 days of ski touring). Lovely place - and a fantastic breakfast NehNeh


End of February, some a good couple of weeks before your stay.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I don’t think the Grand Europa was closed for very long, just a few days IIRC. They closed, quarantined a few staff, deep cleaned and reopened.
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eblunt wrote:
@Mjit, You'll be giving the beer pong a miss though ?


Hard to miss something I've never once seen happen in the Kitzloch...
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Interview with a Munich doctor which amongst the general discussion over treatment of Covid patients states that those patients who were admitted after returning from Ischgl in mid March are still in hospital nearly 6 weeks later https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/coronavirus-clemens-wendtner-spricht-ueber-die-ersten-patienten-antikoerper-und-remdesivir-a-32aba7c5-4e21-4e59-84a7-60d44d146450 (you will have to use Google translate if you dont read German)
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Mjit wrote:
@peanuthead, so another country claims their Covid cases are part of your countries fault and, despite having zero cases actually in that area you lock down the entire town? Do you really think ANY country would/did do that? Did Italy lock down all their ski resorts as soon as their was a single case reported related to one of them? No, they let people travel from resorts with multipel cases to other ski resorts in other countries (that's how Saalbach got it's first cases for example).

Could Ischgl have handled things better and reacted faster? Well with hindsight obviously yes, but then if UK government had implemented full lockdown on Feb 1st, the day after the UK's first confirmed Covid case, the UK Covid death toll would be much lower than it is. Does this mean everyone who contracted Covid inside the UK has a case against the UK government?

@stanton, unless we retry this year's missed Saalbach trip next year we'll probably be in Ischgl in March, and in the Kitzloch Sat/Mon/Wed/Fri nights. It's completely stupid to boycott a business just because it happened to be related to people passing a virus in the past. Sure, if you go there and everyone's caughing and sneezing you might want to give it a miss but if not it's still going to be one of the best apres bars in the world.


Hi, sorry, only coming back to this thread now. No of course there was no indication to lockdown Ischgl on 5 March but they should have investigated the reports, which may have brought straight to the bar and that bar may have been temporarily closed
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@peanuthead, what do you mean by "investigation" in that context though? Someone probably did pick up the phone to the mayor or whatever of Ischgl and say "You seen that report from Iceland? Have there been any signs of the virus in town?", and probably got a response of "No, nothing reported this end.", or "A member of staff in one of the bars has phoned in sick* so we've had him self isolate and swabbed, and expect the results in a couple of days**".

* All we know is that on 7th a staff member was confirmed to have Covid19, that doesn't mean he was fully symptomatic of course. If it's the guy I think it is he's only early/mid 30s so quite possibly in the "Covid lite" symptom group.

** It took a day and a half between swab and results for my mum to get confirmed as having Covid19 - and she was in a hospital! (since released and on the slow road to recovery at home).
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Mjit,

The Ischgl Authorities new about this Virus days before they shutdown ...They were warned by Officials High Up (Tirol State/Vienna Federal) ..that they will be reponsible for the Total Shut Down of Ski Resorts in Austria... They took no action until it was to Late...

A Federal (Vienna) Decree forced the Closure of Ski Areas on March 15th..

Apres Ski

From what I am hearing this will be a NON EVENT (everywhere in Austria) next season ..... Dont expect anything like previous seasons.. No loud music or crowds, drinks limited...Party Groups (Batchelor/Tour Operator Groups, Birthdays) etc will be forbidden.

It is more than likely that many solely operated Apres Ski Huts/Bars will just not open next season as its not financially feasible for them to operate without being full on . Maybe they will just operate as dining areas with social distancing seating arrangements .
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From the Spiegel news ticker (Google translated!)

Quote:
The public prosecutor's office evaluates the results of the Ischgl investigation

12.44 p.m .: The Austrian police have now submitted a report on the Corona events in Ischgl. The approximately 1,000-page interim report is "very detailed and extensive," said the spokesman for the Innsbruck public prosecutor, Hansjörg Mayr. After reviewing the files, a decision will be made as to whether there is reasonable suspicion.

Since the end of March, the public prosecutor's office has been investigating the suspected risk of infectious diseases. According to the public prosecutor, 321 people have now joined the proceedings, most of them from Germany.

The winter sports resort of Ischgl in Tyrol is considered a hotspot, which is said to have contributed significantly to the spread of the corona virus in parts of Europe . One question is whether, based on the information available, action was taken in good time.

In the meantime, 5,380 people have sent letters to an Austrian consumer protection organization who had reported the state of Tyrol to the management of the corona crisis. 3,680 of them are from Germany, 526 from the Netherlands, 152 from Great Britain and 133 from Switzerland. 75 percent of the complaints affect Ischgl.
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This hardly adds much to what has already been said, we shall have to wait to see what action, if any, is taken over the police report

https://www.thelocal.at/20200509/austrian-ski-haven-under-fire-for-early-virus-outbreak
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The Tirolean government has setup an inquiry into the handling of the Corona outbreak in the Tirol. The makeup of the inquiry has already been the subject of political wrangling. The Tirol including both Ischgl and St Anton is now pretty much free of the virus, in Landeck district there has not been a new case for the past week.

See https://www.tt.com/artikel/30732268/landtag-beschliesst-kommission-misstrauensvotum-gegen-tilg-abgelehnt

We shall have to wait to see the outcome but I personally doubt that the inquiry will back those looking to blame the authorities / bar owners or claim compensation in court
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A mention of St Anton and Bad Hofgastein here.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/01/spate-of-possible-uk-coronavirus-cases-from-2019-come-to-light
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Thanks @PrimroseAndBlue,
Interesting that the article also suggests (not for the first time) that a major influx of infected persons into the UK could well have been those nasty half term skier types enjoying Northern Italian hospitality. I would add Austrian visits (and airports) in there too, one way or another.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Many of the Austrian ski resort outbreaks have their origins with people taking a week skiing in Italy, followed by a week skiing in Austria.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Been linked to in the main CV Apres thread already, but interesting nonetheless - a study suggesting that over 1300 sub-strains of SCv2 came into the UK, starting with a load at the back end of February from Italy. No mention at all of Austria (not checked the study itself, just what the BBC says).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52993734
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An overview of another study into Ischgl has been released (details have to wait for peer review) https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/coronavirus-studie-zeigt-hohe-durchseuchung-in-ischgls-bevoelkerung-a-186684ff-35bc-4f07-b537-4f10a9fface2.

What is reported is that towards the end of April more than 40% of Ischgl residents tested positive for antibodies, most of whom had never knew they had the virus or never got tested. Given the delay in antibodies appearing (and it seems not everyone develops antibodies) the level of virus in the village must have been very high. The article suggests this is the highest level of antibodies in a community recorded anywhere so far.
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A shorter English version of the above article https://www.politico.eu/article/over-42-percent-in-austrias-ischgl-had-coronavirus-antibody-tests-find/
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wow that is a massive hit rate...
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Hard to say if it's a massive hit rate or not until we have similar data from other places with similar sizes and population densities to compare it with. Yes, if equivalently hit Italian, Spanish and UK towns only had a say 30% rate then 42% is high, but if they have ~40% it's just what would be expected, or if they had a 50%+ rate it's actually low.

I means do any of us know what the infection rate was at the peak where they live? In the UK you're unlikely to know if you've had it or not unless you either had it bad-enough to get tested or (as of 2 weeks ago) you work in the NHS and have had an antibody test.
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Bergamo had 57% antibody prevalence amongst citizens, though it sounds like it might be testing of blood samples already collected rather than random sampling, so there may be some self-selection

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-tests-show-half-of-people-in-italys-bergamo-have-antibodies/a-53739727
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Milan to Verona to Ischgl was obviously the plague triangle of death this year.

The cold, humidity, and crowds enabled C19 to spread like wildfire.

Beware of round 2 next season.
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Thank god the virus can only spread inside random geometric shapes!

Personally I think in the long run we'll find all major ski resorts and cities were epicentres of virus outbreaks, with airports/aircraft being the initial key point of transmission. I see no logical reason for all infected skiers to only visit resorts in that triangle (or any other shape), or why those infected people that went to Ischgl went out to the Kitzloch (where I've never caught more than a hangover) while those that went to say Morzine wouldn't have gone to The Cavern (where I've caught many a cold, usually at the end of a toffee vodka bottle Very Happy).
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@Mjit, what struck me was of all the folk identified with antibodies 85% either never knew they had had the virus or had very mild symptoms. That has pretty big implications everywhere else, there was a report this morning that it is estimated for the United States that around 20 million people have had the virus but there have only been around just over 2 million positive tests, very similar to the percentages here.
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Yep, I think the Covid infection rate has been MASSIVELY underestimate with the number of asymptomatic people much higher than currently estimated.

As an example, since all NHS hospital staff have been able to get antibody tests in their team everyone except my friend came back antibody positive, despite only 1 or 2 showing the mildest cold symptoms.

How does that scale up to the wider country/world? Well that will require proper science, which takes time.
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@Mjit, by infection rate - do you mean how many have had it?
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