 Poster: A snowHead
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New Member here but longish lurker
I'd just like to add Silverski to the rogues gallery. Was booked to fly out on 15th March for a catered chalet package which was cancelled at 2300 the night before. Silverski's response was a very quick No Refunds, No Vouchers, no looking to carry over to next year. Just a terse email absolving all liability, A cancellation invoice showing 0% refund, and a suggestion to try your travel insurance.
Emails followed pointing out their liability under their own Ts and Cs as well as the Package Travel Regs.
This was followed by the company pulling up the drawbridge and not replying to any emails or telephones.
Recently found out that the company has been refunded for all their charter flights with Jet2but not a sign of the company softening their stance.
I've just got off the phone to my bank after starting the chargeback process on my card(fully refunded so far) unless the company disputes in 30 days.
I know the company is a bit cheap and cheerful but they really aren't doing themselves any favours here as i suspect most of their custom is repeat business as I've been with them about 8 or 9 times. Most folk I meet in the chalets are repeat customers as well.
They can wave goodbye to a lot of this custom. What really galls is the lack of communication and a flat out denial of their responsibility. I suspect a lot of people would have been willing to work with them about moving bookings to next year or a backed voucher scheme but not a chance now.
Any way thanks for letting me vent and I hope 21-22 is a better season
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Still absolutely no sign of a refund from Skiworld - only offer of a RCN which they say has an ABTA backing.
Trying the insurance route - although it seems this will take a long time - now thinking should have done a chargeback on credit card!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@gcoupland, welcome to  , although the circumstances could be better....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Yoda, Thanks, Been a long time lurker but only now been galvanised to join
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Snowfinders wrote: |
| Pruman wrote: |
(3) Remind them of the law but a charge back should work. |
3. Maybe but depending on the end supplier's contract that may not be the case.
PS. Not trying to be argumentative just explaining that it isn't as cut and dry  |
It is cut and dried though. It's the Law. A suppliers Ts&Cs cannot have clauses designed to nullify the law. They are illegal contracts and they don't stand up.
| gcoupland wrote: |
New Member here but longish lurker
I'd just like to add Silverski to the rogues gallery. Was booked to fly out on 15th March for a catered chalet package which was cancelled at 2300 the night before. Silverski's response was a very quick No Refunds, No Vouchers, no looking to carry over to next year. Just a terse email absolving all liability, A cancellation invoice showing 0% refund, and a suggestion to try your travel insurance.
Emails followed pointing out their liability under their own Ts and Cs as well as the Package Travel Regs.
This was followed by the company pulling up the drawbridge and not replying to any emails or telephones.
Recently found out that the company has been refunded for all their charter flights with Jet2but not a sign of the company softening their stance.
I've just got off the phone to my bank after starting the chargeback process on my card(fully refunded so far) unless the company disputes in 30 days.
I know the company is a bit cheap and cheerful but they really aren't doing themselves any favours here as i suspect most of their custom is repeat business as I've been with them about 8 or 9 times. Most folk I meet in the chalets are repeat customers as well.
They can wave goodbye to a lot of this custom. What really galls is the lack of communication and a flat out denial of their responsibility. I suspect a lot of people would have been willing to work with them about moving bookings to next year or a backed voucher scheme but not a chance now.
Any way thanks for letting me vent and I hope 21-22 is a better season |
Hope you mean 20-21 but I suspect it'll be 21-22 before things feel more normal.
Anyway, outrageous, another company sitting on cash that doesn't belong to them. They seem financially sound https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/01897706/filing-history so maybe they should have at least attempted to help their customers. To not even offer a carry over is contemptuous.
The chargeback means they have ended up paying you back anyway, other customers will have been directed to do the same by their insurers, so all they have accomplished is the loss of all all credibility and goodwill.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Plus every chargeback costs them between £15 and £450 depending on whether they contest it and how far into the dispute process they dare go.
And if they exceed a certain number of chargebacks, they get dropped from being able to take credit cards.
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@gcoupland, That's really disappointing. We were in La Plagne in Feb with Silver Ski. We've been with them half a dozen times and I think nearly everyone we've met in their chalets has been a repeat customer.
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I am adding Budget Car Rentals to the good guy list, not just good guys but proactive good guys.
I had car rental booked from Nice for 28th May to 4th June, I had a phone call from them on 27/4 offering to cancel free of charge full refund. I accepted and money was back on my Credit card next day.
All I have to do now is wait for Easyjet to cancel the flights.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hi All,
I am new to the forum but have been watching from afar.
This may of been answered.
We booked a Chalet holiday with a private owned chalet company, French registered and a Sarl.
We have been told under no circumstances we are getting any money back. To be honest, this is disgusting. So you keep all of the money, but you have no running costs etc..
I have heard that there may be a new FRENCH law that means all accommodation providers have to offer a voucher to the same value or they can offer you a refund in 18 months.
Has anyone heard of this and if so does it apply to privately owned chalets who are French Registered and don’t fall under any ABTA scheme.
Thanks in Advance
Patrick
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Just to add Crystal/TUI to the good guy list. Yes, it has taken a while, but they have done what they said, and refunded in full by end April. This was for a very large group, with a total refund of almost £100k, so quite a relief! I do feel for the travel companies - not only is this existential for them, but they are having to process huge numbers of refunds with reduced staff, so I don’t think we can be too critical if they take longer than the 14 days, so long as they do the right thing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Ski2020, Welcome.
We had summer accommodation booked for June in Corsica. A 40% non refundable deposit had been paid. I contacted them ( in my best French) and they confirmed that the French government had confirmed that all booked holidays could be deferred and used next year (at the same cost I think). If we hadn't used the voucher then after the 2021 summer season we could claim a refund
I guess it's probably the same for winter ski except that their season ends earlier.
Hopefully one of the snowboards French residents with letting accommodation will confirm. Good luck
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Snowheads....durghhh...auto 
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| gcoupland wrote: |
New Member here but longish lurker
I'd just like to add Silverski to the rogues gallery. Was booked to fly out on 15th March for a catered chalet package which was cancelled at 2300 the night before. Silverski's response was a very quick No Refunds, No Vouchers, no looking to carry over to next year. Just a terse email absolving all liability, A cancellation invoice showing 0% refund, and a suggestion to try your travel insurance.
Emails followed pointing out their liability under their own Ts and Cs as well as the Package Travel Regs.
This was followed by the company pulling up the drawbridge and not replying to any emails or telephones.
Recently found out that the company has been refunded for all their charter flights with Jet2but not a sign of the company softening their stance.
I've just got off the phone to my bank after starting the chargeback process on my card(fully refunded so far) unless the company disputes in 30 days.
I know the company is a bit cheap and cheerful but they really aren't doing themselves any favours here as i suspect most of their custom is repeat business as I've been with them about 8 or 9 times. Most folk I meet in the chalets are repeat customers as well.
They can wave goodbye to a lot of this custom. What really galls is the lack of communication and a flat out denial of their responsibility. I suspect a lot of people would have been willing to work with them about moving bookings to next year or a backed voucher scheme but not a chance now.
Any way thanks for letting me vent and I hope 21-22 is a better season |
How have you able to confirm that Jet2 have provided refunds. .?? That info would help me a lot. Thanks
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You know it makes sense.
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Just had email from Alpine Elements stating that we will receive a refund but not until 31st January 2021.
Alpine elements the Ryanair of the ski industry
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Tiddles wrote: |
Just had email from Alpine Elements stating that we will receive a refund but not until 31st January 2021.
Alpine elements the Ryanair of the ski industry |
That date is set by their ATOL renewal of March less 2 months to ensure it is still bonded and safe. This date will be brought forward to August in my opinion once the government pulls its finger out (Shapps and Huddlestone that is).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry if already posted but the competition and markets authority are looking into this type of Practice
Press release
COVID-19: CMA to investigate cancellation policy concerns
The CMA has launched a programme of work to investigate reports of businesses failing to respect cancellation rights during the Coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic.
Published 30 April 2020
From:
Competition and Markets Authority
CMA logo
The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) has established a COVID-19 Taskforce, which monitors market developments and identifies the big problems facing consumers.
The Taskforce has seen increasing numbers of complaints in relation to cancellations and refunds, which now account for 4 out of 5 complaints being received. So far, concerns include people being pressured to accept vouchers for holiday accommodation which can only be used during a more expensive period, wedding venues refusing to refund any money and telling people to claim on their insurance, and nurseries asking people to pay very high sums in order to keep a place open for their child.
Based on the complaints received, the CMA has identified 3 sectors of particular concern:
Weddings and private events
Holiday accommodation
Nurseries and childcare providers
The CMA will tackle these areas as a priority and then move on to examine other sectors, based on the information received by the CMA COVID-19 Taskforce.
The CMA acknowledges that most businesses are trying to do the right thing in these unprecedented circumstances but, at the same time, ordinary consumers deserve to have their rights protected. It also advises that businesses should not be profiting by ‘double recovering’ their money from the Government and from customers.
If it finds evidence that companies are failing to comply with the law, the CMA will take appropriate enforcement action, which could include taking a firm to court if it does not address its concerns.
As well as examining specific sectors, the CMA is today issuing a statement on its views on consumer protection law in relation to cancellations and refunds during the current crisis.
The statement covers a range of consumer contracts and different situations. It includes that, in most cases, the CMA would expect a full refund to be offered if:
a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services
no service is provided by a business, because this is prevented by restrictions that apply during the current lockdown or
a consumer cancels, or is prevented from receiving any services, because of the restrictions that apply during the current lockdown
Andrea Coscelli, CEO of the CMA, said:
Our COVID-19 taskforce is shining a light on some of the big issues facing consumers in wake of this pandemic. We are now seeing cancellation issues in their thousands. So far, the CMA has identified weddings, holiday accommodation and childcare as particular areas of concern.
The current situation is throwing up challenges for everyone, including businesses, but that does not mean that consumers should be deprived of their rights at this difficult time. If we find evidence that businesses are failing to comply with consumer protection law then we will take tough enforcement action to protect those rights.
If people have been affected by unfair cancellation terms in wake of COVID-19, they can report them to the CMA using the online form.
Whilst the CMA is not able to respond directly to every complaint it receives, the information provided will help the CMA to decide which issues to address as part of this rolling programme of work.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Although ABTA has announced that the CMA will not be investigating package travel.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ABTA have been saying a lot of things that counteract the law.
ABTA is guidance. The law is the law and trumps guidance.
CMA will get round to tour operators. There are plenty of complaints about lack of refunds.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Tiddles wrote: |
ABTA have been saying a lot of things that counteract the law.
ABTA is guidance. The law is the law and trumps guidance.
CMA will get round to tour operators. There are plenty of complaints about lack of refunds. |
ABTA has been lobbying for a change in the law. Refunds will be follow and ABTA recognises that they should be done as quickly as possible and in a timely fashion. The Jan 31st thing will not wash with them. but if every tour operator refunded everything now I think that over 50% would go bust. The chalet market would pretty much end. One TO that is refunding everyone is dropping a lot of its committed bed stock. I know that quite a few of them paid all their chalet rentals in advance to negotiate the best rates.
Of course the refund does depend on the contract and whether it is deemed as a package. Maybe the CMA will get round to packages but I suspect that they will stay away as it is being handled elsewhere and I would expect this week to see a major announcement that draws a line under the refund date. i may be wrong..........
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Snowfinders wrote: |
| ... ABTA has been lobbying for a change in the law. ... if every tour operator refunded everything now I think that over 50% would go bust... |
Retrospectively changing laws is an interesting idea. As does stealing peoples' money to fund a business which otherwise is trading illegally...
A lot of the travel industry is obviously doomed, but this will only make it worse I'm afraid.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| philwig wrote: |
| Snowfinders wrote: |
| ... ABTA has been lobbying for a change in the law. ... if every tour operator refunded everything now I think that over 50% would go bust... |
Retrospectively changing laws is an interesting idea. As does stealing peoples' money to fund a business which otherwise is trading illegally...
A lot of the travel industry is obviously doomed, but this will only make it worse I'm afraid. |
I think it will make things far better; allowing a sensible period to refund safely is better than TOs refunding half immediately and then going pop. If they do the availability of holidays well be less and prices higher for all (we are looking at that anyway but it will be far worse). It's hard for TOs when so many airlines are attempting to smoke them out by not refunding, not to mention the accommodation owners. If a large number of TOs fail, then whilst monies will be refunded under ATOL, this will take us well into the new year plus there is a strong liklihood that the ATOL system will fail and the government will have to step in and pay out.
Ironically, it's very much like covid and dampening the infection rate to facilitate an even flow to ensure that hospitals aren't overwhelmed, without wishing to sound crude.
If the government stand up and says all refunds (relevant to the ski dates - which is what we are talking about) must be made by August then it really will help everyone to get their money back.
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@Tiddles,
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How have you able to confirm that Jet2 have provided refunds. .?? That info would help me a lot. Thanks
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I have emailed Jet2 asking for confirmation that the flight was cancelled and a whether any refund was due so I can proceed with any claim. I am still waiting for that reply.
However I have seen another persons email from Jet 2 on Silverskis Facebook review page (31st March review)
Basically the email starts out with a table consisting of the booking details ,passenger name, date of flight, flight details, a breakdown of the costs of the flight (base cost, APD, and other charges) this is followed by this sentence
"This is to confirm that (passenger name) did not travel on the above flight due to cancellation by Jet2.com and refund has already been provided."
The email's then signed by Emma Howson Customer Service Executive
As I say I'm still waiting on my reply, but going from the email I've seen it looks pretty conclusive
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@gcoupland,
thanks
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Sunweb's latest position appears to be "here's an offer you can't refuse" :-
"Unfortunately our guarantee fund, SGR. has decided to no longer financially protect Refund Credit Notes if they are refused by the customer. This means that in the unlikely case that Sunweb goes bankrupt, they will not refund your money.
We are very sorry for this inconvenience. We hope you understand that this decision was completely out of our hands.
We are working on refunding customers as soon as possible. Unfortunately in the current situation I cannot advise on a specific timescale, I am really sorry. I do understand you do need to know whether it will be within the next few weeks or months. I have asked for further guidance and I hope to be able to provide you with a more accurate response soon.
Please let us know if you wish to reject the Refund Credit Note.
Have a lovely day!
Kind regards,"
So if you stick to your guns and refuse their derisory offer of a voucher/credit note, with the vague possibility of a cash refund at some distant future date to be decided by them, and they go bust (which seems to me to be a highly likely possibility, not an unlikely one as they claim), you will get nothing.
Reminds me of a Monty Python sketch regarding hot water pipes at Waterloo? Station.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.
We were due in Courchevel with Esprit Ski 15th March. Obviously didn't happen. Macron shut down France at about 6pm on the 14th and we had an e-mail by around 9pm saying don't travel to the airport and setting out options incuding a full refund. We got the full refund credited to the credit card around 2 weeks after this. We have been with Esprit the last 6 years (Val D'isere and La Plagne). This experience would only lead me to book with them again despite our kids (8 and 11) getting to the stage we don't need the chldcare anymore. First class.
For what its worth we were also due to go to Majorca last weekend for 3 nights. Jet 2 refunded our full package costs a few days before we were due to go. Not skiing but again well done Jet 2.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| bblq363 wrote: |
Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.
We were due in Courchevel with Esprit Ski 15th March. Obviously didn't happen. Macron shut down France at about 6pm on the 14th and we had an e-mail by around 9pm saying don't travel to the airport and setting out options incuding a full refund. We got the full refund credited to the credit card around 2 weeks after this. We have been with Esprit the last 6 years (Val D'isere and La Plagne). This experience would only lead me to book with them again despite our kids (8 and 11) getting to the stage we don't need the chldcare anymore. First class.
For what its worth we were also due to go to Majorca last weekend for 3 nights. Jet 2 refunded our full package costs a few days before we were due to go. Not skiing but again well done Jet 2. |
Ski Esprit, Ski Total, Inghams, and Flexi ski (all the same group) have been superb through all of this. As they are owned by a large Swiss company they have the financial backing to have done things correctly.
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Lift co in Tignes, STGM, refunding 25% of cost of season passes, may take 30 days to get bank payment or credit to your on line account. This includes reduced rate passes for owners and workers rates.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| Ski Esprit, Ski Total, Inghams, and Flexi ski (all the same group) have been superb through all of this. |
I can't help feeling that it would have been simpler if I only had to deal with Inghams directly. Booking through Ski Solutions seemed to introduce a degree of uncertainty into the process - I will be booking direct in future.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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BA have been getting some bad press but just got through to them in 15 minutes using the regular 0800 727 800 number. Don't select the refund option though as that seems to put you in a long queue according to others. Processed a a refund in a few minutes and will see if it arrives in the next couple of weeks.
Another travel company to put on the "use again" list. Ryanair take note...
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Poster: A snowHead
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@DrNo, what option did you select?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@holidayloverxx, Option 2. Basically the automated message said choose option one to "follow up" on refunds or option 2 for anything else. Since I hadn't requested a refund I couldn't "follow up" on it 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Snowfinders wrote: |
Ski Esprit, Ski Total, Inghams, and Flexi ski (all the same group) have been superb through all of this. As they are owned by a large Swiss company they have the financial backing to have done things correctly. |
Thats good to know. I can't see myself ever booking with Mark Warner again, I'm still waiting on my £17.5k refund.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The stuff reported by the Mirror is utter bunkum.
To claim your refund is delayed because they haven't yet received the money from, for example, the hotel booked on your behalf, is just a lie.
Tour operators pay for your hotel room (and everything else), 90 days AFTER you have been.
They are virtually Ponzi schemes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@NickYoung, see page 156, and also notes 19 and 33 in Tui's annual report https://www.tuigroup.com/en-en/investors/annual-reports/special-annual-report-19
As at 30 September, Tui had made €1.1bn of advances to "touristic providers" - airlines, hotels, camel tour operators and whoever else. These are non-current assets, so expected to take more than a year to be realised.
I'm glad to see the travel press is finally waking up to the reality that I've posted numerous times already - we all want our money back, but in many cases the money just isn't there. This is not a high margin, high return on capital industry with spare cash sloshing around (despite the vivid imaginations one or two contributors on here). Waiting for your operator to refund you could be a very bad decision, particularly if it leads to you timing out on chargeback, section 75 or insurance.
It's akin to everyone walking into their bank tomorrow and asking for their money, or everyone taking the last year's worth of shopping back to John Lewis for a refund. In most cases the cash isn't there to return to people. That doesn't mean John Lewis is trading insolvently, it means that on a historic view of its liabilities, very few people will return their products.
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Wouldn't be surprised to see that some of the money "advanced" to providers, is actually from one Tui company to another Tui company...
Of course, they never expected to be in a situation where the business ran out of liquidity completely - could always pay yesterday's bill with tomorrow's money, as long as people kept buying holidays.
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@NickYoung, These are the consolidated accounts thus intercompany balances will be eliminated - whilst there could be JVs or associates affecting the numbers a bit, but on the whole, these numbers will reflect economic reality.
The industry does not have bucketloads of cash. It's telling that the "best" refunder (inghams etc., owned by Hotelplan) as a parent company has a Swiss supermarket cooperative (Migros, for those familiar with it). That means it isn't reliant on the same working capital dynamics as the traevl-focussed players, and thus has access to potentially a lot more credit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thank all for the info, I will keep you updated. Sounds like we should of been offered a refund of some sort. Very disappointed how some companies what to keep your money.
Kind regards
Patrick
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New email from Sunweb today, I'm wanting the exact same holiday next year, so will hold on for the time being and accept the credit note.
Based on the EU Package Travel Directive, customers have the right to request a full cash refund to be paid within 14 days of the cancellation date where a holiday is cancelled as a result of “unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances”. However, as organisations like Sunweb are waiting on refunds from their suppliers and do not have the cash to immediately provide these refunds, an alternative solution has been found by offering customers the financially protected Refund Credit Note. You do have the right to refuse the Refund Credit Note according to the guidelines set by ABTA. If you do this, we will refund you as soon as possible, however, due to the exceptional circumstances and volume of cases the time limit will currently exceed the 14-day window.
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FAQ
