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Refunds and cancellations - who have been the good guys?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Chalet Chardons saying they are open in that BBC article? I call BS on that response.

I understood that he French gov ordered a shut down of all places that receive the public that are not essential to the life of the country from midnight on 14th March. We were in Chatel at the time, and our friends hotel closed immediately, and the residence we were staying in closed later that week after giving people the opportunity to re-arrange transport and leave. I can't imagine a ski chalet is classed as essential to the life of the country, so I don't see how Chardons can in the slightest claim they are open and ready and willing to receive guests in the current crisis and given the situation in France. Frankly that is outrageous. Agree with the poster it hasn't done them any favours.
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On positives I had a no nonsense refund from BA Holidays for my Easter flight and car hire. They did it automatically, without me having to ask. Thumbs up.
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The thing with Chardons that hit me was that they're not giving any type of refund at all.

Seems like no one wants to make the call and consumers/their insurance companies are taking the strain. The commune don't force chalets to close because it'll hit the commune, then the chalets refuse to close because it'll hit them. S*** definitely rolls down hill.
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Got an email from Ryanair saying I can change my flights for free, but it stops short of actually saying the flight is cancelled.
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I'm in for about £400 for unused train tickets, additional 3 hour bus transfers and and a hotel stop over at Zurich airport, after we were part of the evacuation on 13 March from St Anton with 3 hour warning before they closed the borders, immediate highly policed lockdown at the town perimeters west and east, we only got out becasue we'd scrambled like many others to get the required transit paperwork. I'm not bothering chasing anyone for a refund, I want the companies we use to survive so they are there next time. We travel independently so carry the risk ourselves, wouldnt even bother with our insurances they wouldnt pay out anyway. I can't praise Arlberg Express transfers enough, and Swiss were brilliant getting us onto an earlier flight, and their social distancing strategy, well before anyone in UK had even though of it.

My main concern is for our health, we managed to get out and that was my main concern.
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NickYoung wrote:
Got an email from Ryanair saying I can change my flights for free, but it stops short of actually saying the flight is cancelled.


That was my first email too. Got the second one offering a refund subsequently, when I had done nothing.
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CaravanSkier wrote:
NickYoung wrote:
Got an email from Ryanair saying I can change my flights for free, but it stops short of actually saying the flight is cancelled.


That was my first email too. Got the second one offering a refund subsequently, when I had done nothing.


I'll sit tight...
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Masque wrote:
@Pruman, you're just a dick


I really don't mind being 'just a dick'.



Moving on -

always29 wrote:
This company made it to the BBC, that's not going to do them any favours.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52206832


So their accounts are interesting, you'll find them here https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08696777/filing-history

In the notes, number 6: "MNC Sarl, a French company that is controlled by one of the directors, charged the company for rent in the sum of £103,497 etc"

Reading between the lines, any money they have paid out for accommodation has effectively been paid to themselves. Can never be 100% about these things but I'd put money on it. Another company acting illegally and sitting on the dosh.

I hope the family owed £17k does the mother of all charge-backs or just sues them. Moneyclaimonline goes up to £100k these days.




Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Timc wrote:
Quote:

A refund for the main holiday cost will be provided in the event that your insurance company does not honour your claim. Should you require Ski Miquel to provide a refund for the main holiday cost, please provide us with written confirmation of the rejection of your claim from your insurance company.


That looks very much like insurance fraud and conspiracy to defraud.


+ shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how insurance is supposed to operate. I'm losing my respect for most travel companies over their willingness to break the law and encourage their customers to.


My insurance law is a bit rusty but there are technical reasons why insurance isn’t covering it. Firstly, what Ski Miquel are doing there is trying to profit from an insurance claim (albeit someone else’s claim) and that’s illegal. Insurance is there to put you back in the same position you would have been in if the loss hadn’t occurred. It’s why inflating an insurance claim (oooh, just remembered, they took my Rolex as well) is fraud. There has to be ‘a loss’ – in layman’s terms the money isn’t lost with the cancelled trip examples, it’s just in the wrong hands, it’s simply a contractual issue between two parties. And, because there are laws in place designed to protect the customer’s money (eg full cash refund within 14 days), the underwriters do not have to factor that into the rates or cover that circumstance in the policy wording. It’s tough on tour operators I know, but if someone wants their money back, for whatever reason, then they are legally obliged to comply. And I don’t see how Grant Schnapps can retrospectively change the rules to help ABTA. Luckily for him and for ABTA a lot of people will go for vouchers or rebookings, so there should be room to refund those who want it. As many of those will do charge-backs anyway, the effect will be the same in the end.
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One point to note re that BBC article and Chardons, the 17k is for a chalet of 20 people. I am not taking away that the total is 17k, but it's not all being lost by one person or family, but a couple of smaller groups. Though I get that it may have actually been booked by 1 individual on behalf of them all.

Clearly if as posted above the accom is charged out by a 3rd party company which has links to Chardons there is certainly a distinct smell of sharp practice at best.
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@ansta1, I think that's beside the point, they're effectively saying that it costs them the same to have an empty chalet for a week as it does to have 20 people there. They're making profit out of the fact that their clients can't travel to the residence. Legally they're probably quite entitled to that, but morally I think it's a poor showing...and that's without taking into account that they're paying money to themselves for rent.
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I think the answer to help those 20 get their money back is start a separate thread on here only telling the truth, and maybe they will be thinking long and hard on how it will impact their business in 2021 and beyond.
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, I don't disagree with that, it was more that the headline on the BBC implies that one person/family is out to the tune of 17k which is almost certainly not the case. (I know the detail says the booking was for family and friends, but not everyone looks below the headline).

I'm not agreeing with their stand, but quite a few companies will and have put 'legal' obligations above 'morale' ones. The
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ansta1 wrote:
One point to note re that BBC article and Chardons, the 17k is for a chalet of 20 people. I am not taking away that the total is 17k, but it's not all being lost by one person or family, but a couple of smaller groups. Though I get that it may have actually been booked by 1 individual on behalf of them all.

Clearly if as posted above the accom is charged out by a 3rd party company which has links to Chardons there is certainly a distinct smell of sharp practice at best.


The MD seems to make a weak and implausible case (oh we'd love to give a refund just that "legally" we aren't allowed to cancel clients and our terms say if they cancel we keep the dosh). Certainly another outfiot going on my personal no go list. At the very least it is exploiting a legal loophole by pretending to still be open (anyone seriously think that if the 17 people did soemhow turn up there would be someone waiting eagerly with tea and cakes for them?)
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The whole terms and conditions that Chardons is a complete excuse. There are various ways they could offer a refund if they wanted to. They could offer a change in the T&C of the agreement which then included refunds due to reason X, provided both parties agreed, it would be fully legal. Lots of other companies are giving refunds, just stinks of the company using the tools at his disposal to make as much as he can out of it.
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Short term gain long term pain then
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It may be different for apartments but our immobilier said we must refund all clients who had to cancel the full amount by law.
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Quote:



That looks very much like insurance fraud and conspiracy to defraud.


To be fair on Ski Miguel I believe they were following ABTA advice on this and have since emailed customers and issued refunds .

Ski Miguel are one of the good guys in the
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@r11s,

Absolutely r11s, we have received our refund from Ski Miguel today. Thank you to them and if there's a season next year and my frozen shoulder has healed enough to ski they'll be our first port of call!
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@NickYoung, I had the same with Ryanair for an Easter flight. Warnings that I should change my flight before the 24th March which I didn't want to do but I held out and then of course they cancelled on the 25th and it was a simple refund form to complete. Still don't have the money yet mind...

Given Ryanair's attitude to customer services in the boom times, I have no scruples with obtaining a cash refund from them. The small tour operator who I was also using for that trip who gave regular email updates in March. I have therefore rolled over my deposit payment for another trip where possible (they haven't set an expiry or restrictions on its use) and hopefully that will help their cashflow.
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[quote="jafa"]
michaelbury17 wrote:
jafa wrote:
Seems a little harsh. Im assuming a direct case with an Insurer? You would surprise me if a broker was involved.


No, this was a policy I took out over the phone with a broker, and it was the broker that emailed me to 'void' the policy!


I`m sorry to hear this. As a Broker myself, I cant believe that this could happen. Id be on the phone myself talking to the Insurance Company trying to get the claim settled in the first instance. I think unfortunately as you done the policy through a broker over the telephone, I suspect as there was no relationship in place was where the initial problem started. They would have had the telephone call recorded, and if they asked the question and you answered it honestly (because the ombudsman saw in your favour) then there is no reason why they couldn't have resolved it. I suspect finally it was because they didn't want to and hoped you`d not take it beyond them /Insurance Company. Not acceptable I`m just glad you were successful in the end.


It is unfortunate that the minority spoil it for the majority, always the case!

I guess it comes down to their arrogance, that they take the chance that most people will take it on the chin, that they are in the right & the customer must be in the wrong, withholding specific information, wrong, wrong & don't put up with this stance!

I have my own business & use a broker, who I have to say is brilliant, he was one of many advisors who couldn't believe the attitude which my Insurer took, he encouraged me to question the decision, even when I asked if he truly thought I was wrong to tell me & I would have dropped it, I really would but tbf but it was my opinion that I had complied truthfully when taking the policy out.

You are correct the call was recorded which completely vindicated my position, which is what the Ombudsman ultimately relied upon. It was the underhand tactics which the Insurers/underwriters applied after the claim was made to deny the claim which was completely wrong, they (specifically) are the scourge of your industry, clearly their brief is to decline claims under whatever means available, this has to be their instruction from their employer.

Unfortunate, but in all industries we have scumbags... Confused
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I just received the last refund from four heli companies I had bookings with.
No one would ever pay in advance if they didn't refund in full when something like this happens. Not that it's happened before.

Expedia have been mixed. They claim to have accepted requests for refunds on all of my hotel bookings except one, and their customer support is inaccessible. I just issued a Section 75 charge back through the credit card company I paid for that one with, as they just sent the bill. I don't fancy lending them money whilst they get their act together. I don't really understand that when payments are all electronic.

Air Canada... I booked some tickets with them direct, some through cheapo agents. I had to buy an emergency 1-way ticket to get out of there, and I'll be taking vouchers from AC which isn't great. I will be out of pocket on this, and I ended up paying for flights for a long weekend in Whistler which wasn't quite what I'd planned.

Vail Resorts... full refund for unused lift ticket in flight.

I self insure, but the costs of those flights are pretty much all the costs I've taken in 30 seasons doing that.
Avoiding trouble in future may be more challenging, for those with and without insurance.
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Anyone had a refund from Crystal recently? I appreciate that they've been clear in their communication and didn't hesitate to say they'd refund everyone. It's nearly a month ago now, if processing refunds by booking date it seems they're not making much progress?

Was quick to get a refund from alpinresorts for ski hire although as has been pointed out it's probably easier for any business that's merely a platform/agent.
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Man from ABTA was on BBC Breakfast this morning. The gist of it was that the law relating to 14 day refunds applied, but that they simply hadn't got the money. Might take 4 months, but all ABTA/ATOL bonded holidays would be refunded eventually. I am still waiting for Alpine Elements to refund.

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I’ve been advised this morning that Mark Warner will not be refunding but offering a credit against a future trip
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After several abortive attempts to speak to someone in BA to seek a refund for cancelled flights to and from Calgary (would have been there this week and the snow is amazing but thats collateral insult to injury) with the calls generally ending up with me being asked to call back later I finally got through a couple of nights ago on the number proferred to callers from overseas. A very pleasant woman processed my request for a refund and also reintatement of some Avios without any questions or lengthy delays while she did so. I am to expect the funds back on to my credit card in about 7 days or maybe a little longer as "they are very busy". It was so much easier than I had expected.
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It's a couple of days since I last checked the media to see which way the wind's blowing re. refunds / Abta / Which? / consumers / the government etc. ...

The Independent (Simon Calder)
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/abta-cancelled-holiday-atol-refunds-package-travel-regulations-a9458826.html

Simon Calder reported (this morning) a significant hardening of stance by ABTA - regarding those ABTA members' refusing to refund and imposing vouchers only - perhaps sensing that the government is not going to bow to their demands and bail out the travel industry. In a nutshell they are emphasising the bonded guarantee of a refund if a rebooking is not claimed, but continuing to play for time on this. A BBC interview with the ABTA CEO Mark Tanzer is quoted ...

Quote:
Speaking to BBC Breakfast, Mark Tanzer said he was “very aware of the concern and frustration and anger that’s out there at the moment”.

He said Abta would take action against any member company offering only a voucher for future travel: “We absolutely reject the fact that firms should be denying their obligations under these rules.

“They do owe the customers a refund. The customer has to have that right. We will make sure that Abta members follow that rule.”


The Guardian (Patrick Collinson)
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/apr/10/airlines-law-refunds-voucher-schemes-coronavirus

Quote:

Airlines are breaking the law on refunds. Should we be sympathetic?

The rules are quite clear: if a flight is cancelled, the airline has to offer you a refund. The Civil Aviation Authority states explicitly that “If your flight has been cancelled, your airline must offer you the choice of a refund or alternative flight.”

But the airlines are trampling all over consumer law and the CAA appears to have abdicated responsibility for enforcing the rules.


Collinson goes on to suggest some creative solutions, based on experience.

Change.org
https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-give-customers-their-cash-refunds-on-coronavirus-cancelled-holidays

The influential petition-hosting site Change.org has this afternoon started a petition to government ...

Quote:
It's Right to Refund: refund customers on coronavirus cancelled holidays
Kane Pirie started this petition to Boris Johnson (Prime Minister)

Customers with urgent need for the return of their own money from travel companies are being treated with disrespect by companies not following the law ... We also urge all travel companies to empathise with their customers and to prioritise customer refunds for customers with the most pressing need.

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Collinson is wrong the British Airways site does tell you how to obtain a refund, you may have to look for it but it is there. There are several telephone numbers for use to contact BA, like everyone else they are currently understaffed with their Indian call centre shut down and in line with so many other employers they are suffering from loss of fit employees to actually deal with customer queries. I tried their numbers several times through a couple of days, they didnt keep me on hold endlessly they simply cut the calls and invited me to call back later. Annoying but nothing like as annoying as being held in a queue for an indefinitely period. A couple of nights ago at 7.00 I tried again and was surprised to get put through to an adviser who processed my refund and promised reinstatement of my Avios. Very polite, efficient and we even had a laugh. I know everyone thinks they should get everything back when and how they want it but this is currently simply not realistic. Check what your contractual rights are and then pursue them. If the airline has cancelled a flight then they must refund you if you wish for a refund, it is a breach of contract, simple. If you have chosen not to travel because the Government has advised against travel the situation may be different and it may be as much a matter for your insurer as your airline. There are lots of variations on this theme. Most people should be able to get their money back from someone be it travel agent, insurer, airline or via S75 credit card claim but there will undoubtedly be some situations where the issue of who should pay is much less clear.
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Mark Warner need a firm rebuttal, they sell package holidays and are obliged to refund whether they like it or not. If this is there final position seek recovery through your bank / credit card in the first instance .
These companies that try to bully their customers simply don’t deserve our patronage
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
r11s wrote:
Mark Warner need a firm rebuttal, they sell package holidays and are obliged to refund whether they like it or not. If this is there final position seek recovery through your bank / credit card in the first instance .
These companies that try to bully their customers simply don’t deserve our patronage


I booked via a social group who had a large booking with a Mark Warner There was no option but to pay by bank transfer Into the club account so cannot use a chargeback. I feel completely out of control of the situation as all comms go between MW and the social group. I would always pay by card if booking direct for security.
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Artois wrote:
r11s wrote:
Mark Warner need a firm rebuttal, they sell package holidays and are obliged to refund whether they like it or not. If this is there final position seek recovery through your bank / credit card in the first instance .
These companies that try to bully their customers simply don’t deserve our patronage


I booked via a social group who had a large booking with a Mark Warner There was no option but to pay by bank transfer Into the club account so cannot use a chargeback. I feel completely out of control of the situation as all comms go between MW and the social group. I would always pay by card if booking direct for security.


@Artois: In that case contact the social group and request that they initiate a Money Claim Online at https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim on your groups behalf - It's the small claims court and yes, there is a fee to be paid (see https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees) but it is only 4.5% on a claim greater than £10,000.01 and up to £100,000. So if every individual paid in £1,000 then it's effectively costing you £45 each to get your money back (ending up with £955 returned) when the claim is upheld.

Also worth noting that you can also claim interest on the money you’re owed. More at https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work-out-interest

Hope this helps? You are definitely not out of control of this situation.
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@paul65
This is really useful. Apparently the group has rebooked a trip for next year and is asking who wants to be included in this booking and their monies will be carried over. As at least 2 of us no longer wish to do this we are being told we can breakaway from this group and rebook a trip with Mark Warner so in effect it is still just a credit note. I’m wondering if in this case we should be making a claim against the group who we paid our monies to?
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@Artois, you could suggest to the social group that they try to find two replacements for next year, who would pay into the group fund, which in turn would reimburse you.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The reputational impact of this crisis on travel companies is formidable and highly polarised - both bad and good.

Here are the 20 most recent Trustpilot reviews of Tui - all posted since yesterday, all 1-star ...
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.tui.co.uk

And here are the 20 most recent reviews of Trailfinders - all posted since yesterday, 19 of which are 5-stars ...
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.trailfinders.com

For comparison, Crystal Ski score 8 out of 20 for 5-star reviews ...
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.crystalski.co.uk

SkiWorld get an interesting spectrum of 5-star, 4-star and 1-star reviews for handling (particularly) emergency repatriations ...
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/skiworld.co.uk

Finally, Neilson rate disastrously in this little survey. All 20 most recent reviews are 1-star
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.neilson.co.uk
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@Davina Goldballs, Thank you - very interesting reading!
To add to above - Cannot get any replies from Skiworld, either by phone or email with regard a refund.
Its been 4 weeks now since holiday was cancelled and not a single reply to questions of a refund!
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paul65 wrote:

@Artois: In that case contact the social group and request that they initiate a Money Claim Online at https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim on your groups behalf - It's the small claims court and yes, there is a fee to be paid (see https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees) but it is only 4.5% on a claim greater than £10,000.01 and up to £100,000. So if every individual paid in £1,000 then it's effectively costing you £45 each to get your money back (ending up with £955 returned) when the claim is upheld.


Surely the court fees are added to the claim so, if successful, everyone comes out with 100%.


Dippy wrote:
@Davina Goldballs, Thank you - very interesting reading!
To add to above - Cannot get any replies from Skiworld, either by phone or email with regard a refund.
Its been 4 weeks now since holiday was cancelled and not a single reply to questions of a refund!


I'd say you have no choice but to instigate the charge-back or moneyclaimonline. They are treating you with contempt so time to stick the boot in.
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I'd booked snowbombing should have arrived today!

They have been absolutely great, offering a full no quibble refund or a part refund and a transfer to next year.

Anyone who transfers gets invited to a one off party with fat boy slim with free booze.

Lufthansa however went silent, took two weeks before i could get through on the phone. They have agreed a full refund though.

The Mrs was due to fly to gran canaria last week booked with On The Beach and a Ryanair flight. Both have tried their best to get out of any refund. On the beach sent email after email trying to get her to cancel the trip.

Ryanair was flying people out knowing full well the hotels were closing.
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I have an EJ flight to Corsica on 14 June. So probably at best 50/50 at the moment.
I've already paid £450approx, non returnable deposit on accommodation. On 4 May I will then be liable for an additional£250 if I cancel.Balance on arrival.
If there's a flight I'll be there.....however, in the circumstances, under French law if I cancel will they have to refund me?
Also what would happen if flight was cancelled, but accommodation was open?
Thanks
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Given the very negative Neilson reviews above, it's interesting to note their revised (this morning) policy ... which can be viewed in full here ...

https://www.neilson.co.uk/latest-travel-update

Quoting very selectively ...

Quote:

If your recent Neilson Ski & board holiday was due to depart before 16 April 2020 ...
Your refund credit note will be issued in the coming days, with a value equal to the amount you've already paid to us. If you have not used your refund credit note towards a future holiday by 30 September 2020, please contact us at that time so we can arrange for your cash refund.


So they're potentially playing for nearly 6 months hold on clients' money, in relation to the legal stipulation of the Package Travel Regulations which required refunds by around 30 March.
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Has anyone been dealing with Wasteland, the uni ski trip people? They’re ABTA members but have only refunded “extras” (which seems to be the security deposit). They’re saying (to a bunch of young folks who perhaps won’t argue) that because they’ve had to pay their accommodation providers they should claim on their insurance if they want a refund or (and this is where i get suspicious) have a voucher for next year’s trip - if they’ve really paid out all their costs then presumably they’d go bust next year if everyone went with a voucher? I’ve emailed pointing out the ABTA rules but had nothing back. Have any other SHs got kids in a similar position? Ta.
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russ_e wrote:

Anyone who transfers gets invited to a one off party with fat boy slim with free booze.


That’s awesome, though it does sound a little bit Fyre Festival...!

I joke, and I’m sure it’ll be worth the wait next year.
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