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Refunds and cancellations - who have been the good guys?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Oh, and admin's hamsters are stars Toofy Grin give them a whole walnut each for their efforts Smile
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Wise words but too late I'm afraid. Not that many would have heeded them anyway...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Masque wrote:
I've been thinking quite a bit about this thread . . . and have managed to stay quiet . . . but there are a couple of observations that need to be made.
Absolutely everybody has been screwed by this situation and that is hundreds of thousands of people, businesses (big and small) whole towns . . . and yes, even that evil incarnate, the insurance industry.

BUT! . . . down at the consumer end, if your personal or family finances can't afford the financial hit of writing off the cost of a or this holiday then your priorities are not focused to the right goal. Fiscal uncertainty has been in our future for more than a decade. You, me, us need to have a cushion to fall back on in this situation. Some of you may have and are not posting here. Some of you obsessing about refunds may want to take a glance in the mirror and ask if a ski holiday is more important than family security and safety.

Harsh, yes . . . but it's only when you get to my age can you live as if tomorrow will be the same as today.


but the key point is the point you mention and that is that everybody is getting screwed - and your point is a catch-22. We don't want ski companies to go out of business - but there are also people at home in non-ski related jobs are losing their jobs too. Huge companies (that I won't mention) are just weeks away from going under because cash is king and they aren't bringing in any cash. So more people will lose jobs. So in order to protect your family security and security, in times where things will be getting very hard and people are losing income streams, you could argue it's exactly the right time to chase every penny. Unfortunately the consequence of that is.. (go back to square one).


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 31-03-20 11:43; edited 2 times in total
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Has anyone received their refund from Mark Warner? I received an offer of a voucher + 10% for the 20/21 season or a full refund on the 17th March, on 18th March they issued the cancellation invoice, but so far, no refund.

I've tried calling, but their agents say that they're swamped and have no info re: the processing of refunds. Emails are now going unanswered.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
We've received a final "p**s off" email from Sunweb, stating that it's a voucher or nothing, despite the ABTA guidance. Reluctantly now pursuing the Section 75 route.
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just fyi, Ihad a wander round the ABTOT website and found this advice (from 20/3) to their members

"The travel industry is waiting for news, expected early next week, on relaxation or amendment of The Package Travel Regulations, which hopefully will stop tour operators being obligated to fully refund customers for cancelled bookings within 14 days. We suggest you withhold from paying refunds within the 14 day period, until official announcements are made .This will undoubtedly keep many travel businesses alive, but possibly leave them with some unhappy customers who don’t want to accept a credit voucher for future travel"

https://www.abtot.com/covid-19-update-from-elman-wall/

therefore in essence they are telling their members to break the law around the 14 day condition. seeing how our holiday has already passed its difficult to see even if the government change the law it can be retrospectively applied.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Mr_frosty, My company (not ski related), is bonded through ABTOT, so I receive regular emails from them. We are refunding in full, despite the financial pressures this places on our company, as, not only do we think it's the right thing to do, but we feel it gives us the long term benefit of not damaging our hard-earned reputation.

It will be tough, financially, but we're confident that, with a lot of hard work, we can do this.

This was another post they made on their website from March 20th, for your reference:

"ABTOT announces that The EU is implementing a change to the PTRs.

This has not been adopted by the UK as yet however we anticipate that it will be and, as an approved body, ABTOT and ABTOT Members will be required to follow the new guidance.

It is not the suspension of the obligations on you that we had hoped for – but it will alleviate the requirement to pay cash refunds. We urge Members to handle customer requests in a manner that best suits your business but which will also ensure your business remains operational in this challenging time.

The likely advice will be that when providing customer credit instead of offering refunds (which we support to protect your cash flow), please issue a “Refund Credit Note” and allocate it to the original booking information.

Your customer will retain the right for a full refund if, eventually, they do not make use of the Refund Credit Note.

Please note that all Refund Credit Notes will be covered by your ABTOT Bond or ATOL.

Source link: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/coronavirus_info_ptd_19.3.2020.pdf

Once we have received confirmation that the UK Regulations have changed we will provide further guidance later today or early next week."
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
porkpiefox wrote:
ABTOT announces that The EU is implementing a change to the PTRs.

This has not been adopted by the UK as yet however we anticipate that it will be and, as an approved body, ABTOT and ABTOT Members will be required to follow the new guidance.


Unfortunately that is a big fat attempted cop out. It's guidance, not a change of THE LAW. Guidance changes nothing. Saying you are "required to follow it" is deliberately misleading.

From what I know about the situation UK Gov has not yet responded to the request to change the PTR. ABTA continue to say that people are entitled to full refunds but, if they accept a credit note, it must be ATOL protected (if an air package) or ABTA bonded if non-air. The CAA are yet to agree to the ATOL bit. ABTA note that many operators are already telling customers that the law has been changed - but it has not!

Masque wrote:
BUT! . . . down at the consumer end, if your personal or family finances can't afford the financial hit of writing off the cost of a or this holiday then your priorities are not focused to the right goal. Fiscal uncertainty has been in our future for more than a decade. You, me, us need to have a cushion to fall back on in this situation. Some of you may have and are not posting here. Some of you obsessing about refunds may want to take a glance in the mirror and ask if a ski holiday is more important than family security and safety.

Harsh, yes . . . but it's only when you get to my age can you live as if tomorrow will be the same as today.


Not harsh at all just incredibly patronising and incoherent. I have a friend who is (was!) self-employed, doing nicely, and looking forward to the family ski holiday. Now her finances have been suddenly crushed to the extent that the several £000s tied up by (not naming them yet) are really important now. So I say stick to the facts. If your tour operator is refusing a full refund ask them a few questions: (1) Where exactly is the money you paid them (it is still your money) (2) If that money isn't in a proper client account, how exactly is it protected (3) have they paid the suppliers at the other end? (accommodation, transfers, lift pass, ski school etc) (4) The real answer is almost certainly 'no' but, if they say 'yes' and are telling the truth then you need proof and they should have no problem proving it - at most they might have paid a deposit but I'm told it is still normal for them to settle up after the event.

This is not the time to be feeling sorry for businesses. Many are going to fail.
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Pruman wrote:
....This is not the time to be feeling sorry for businesses. Many are going to fail.

But if you can claim on your insurance instead and (help) save that business then that's a good thing.
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One thing they seem to be forgetting is if they force a mass of pissed off customers to take vouchers to use next year, they are going to have to put up with those pissed off customers in their chalets / hotels / transfer busses next season, consuming their free wine and not making a mess. That’s going to go really well isn’t it!

Also, what guarantee do I have that if I accept a voucher, next years holiday is delivered at the same quality as it would have been this year? What’s to stop them giving me crappy cheap food and ration me to a half glass of plonk for the week? Poor customer service so far received means I am only going back with them to use my voucher and will never go with them again in future anyway and they probably know this.

Surely these companies would be better off going bust and restarting with a new logo but no debt, It’s not as if the chalets will be demolished, everything is leased and staff are recruited per season anyway. Same for the airlines, Boeing aren’t going to scrap the aircraft, they will just be leased by someone else and have a new sticker put on the tail and away they go again, only losers are the hedge funds.

The bit which really gets me is the company we were supposed to go with in March is advertising next years trips, under a ABTOT banner, and how I can book with confidence because of the Abtot bond, apart from it seems, unless they don’t feel like honouring their own terms and conditions or claiming on said bond.
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@lenniem, i'm with you on the voucher thing, too many possible variables to make vouchers for the future useless, large list price hikes, can't be used with along with other offers etc. i've sent you a PM BTW.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
spyderjon wrote:
Pruman wrote:
....This is not the time to be feeling sorry for businesses. Many are going to fail.

But if you can claim on your insurance instead and (help) save that business then that's a good thing.


And, frankly, it is a very good time to feel sorry for businesses and co-operate with them if we can. The ones I am thinking of have been built up with imagination and hard work. I'd like them to be around when I am skiing again.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
In the interests of objectivity and security - as distinct from sentimentality and risk - let's hark back to the opening header and posting of this discussion, as contributed by 'Little Ros' ...

LittleRos wrote:
Refunds and cancellations - who have been the good guys?

LittleRos wrote:
I thought it might be helpful to have a thread where we can namecheck TOs/airlines/accommodation etc who’ve treated us well - in future seasons I’d like to be able to spend money with them.

From me, I’d booked a house with the owners of The Hotel Jäger in Ried im Zillertal - they emailed me as soon as the Austrian closures were announced asking for my bank details to return the deposit. Eurotunnel were also helpful about transferring my booking to the summer (and answered the phone surprisingly quickly...).


That all seemed a good model to work by. Two businesses that either refunded or arranged - by mutual consent - alternative arrangements.

It seems to me that unless a travel business has very good reason to hang on to its clients' cash (i.e. the clients have agreed to this) then the cash should already have been refunded - to comply with the The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018. It's all there in black and white, as per Regulation 14:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2018/9780111168479/regulation/14

[quote]Refunds in the event of termination
14.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) Following a termination under regulation 12(2), the organiser must reimburse any payments made by or on behalf of the traveller, having deducted any termination fee.

(3) Any—

(a)reimbursement required under paragraph (2), or
(b)refund required pursuant to—
(i)regulation 12(Cool, or
(ii)a termination under regulation 13(3),
must be made to the traveller without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the package travel contract is terminated.[quote]

Since virtually all package travel contracts were terminated 16+ days ago, time is now up. The money should now have been refunded.

The tabloid papers (rags in some people's eyes, accurate barometers of the public mood in others) started getting shirty about a week ago - reflecting their readers' interests and concerns. Viz ... the Daily Mail 'This Is Money' (24 March) ...

"Battle to get your holiday cash back: As travel shuts down, many people are fighting for refunds - so what should you do?"
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/holidays/article-8148655/Battle-holiday-cash-travel-shuts-down.html

... and today's Sun ...

"REFUND FURY Families slam travel firms as they battle to get refunds for Easter holidays cancelled due to coronavirus"
https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/11299178/hit-out-travel-firms-refunds/

As of this moment, I'd imagine that £100smillions are sitting in the bank accounts of travel enterprises, all over the place. Money that should be back in the hands of those who earned it and entrusted it for holidays that are now not going to happen. They may well wish to spend it on ski holidays next winter ... with organisations that did the right thing, by the regulations, at the moment of need. But probably don't want their hands tied. As result of the developments of the past fortnight, they may well be skint (ski.nt).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
lenniem wrote:
...Surely these companies would be better off going bust and restarting with a new logo but no debt, It’s not as if the chalets will be demolished, everything is leased and staff are recruited per season anyway. ...

Many companies are probably existing on overdrafts right now, and could readily go bust tomorrow. If you let them know you are happy with that, they might oblige. Shocked
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Received a Future Credit for a cruise I was planning on enjoying in may. They offered me 125% credit or a refund. As I have a cruise booked for December I transferred the credit to that.

They have given until end 2021 to use the cruise credits although I see that the prices have increased by more that 25%.

Also gambling on them not going bust!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
As things stand I'm struggling to see the next ski season happening at all, other than limited opening for locals. Scotland may be an option for us Brits next year, but I can't see travel to the Alps for skiing being viable without some sort of immunization certificate. And we're told a vaccine is at least 18 months away.

With this in mind I'm chasing refunds and insurance claims over credit notes or deferrals.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@charrison, I agree we may not back to something even resembling normality in time.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
charrison wrote:
As things stand I'm struggling to see the next ski season happening at all, other than limited opening for locals. Scotland may be an option for us Brits next year, but I can't see travel to the Alps for skiing being viable without some sort of immunization certificate. And we're told a vaccine is at least 18 months away.

With this in mind I'm chasing refunds and insurance claims over credit notes or deferrals.


Don't forget that a large group of people will have developed natural immunity in that time, and while a vaccine may be a long way away, the antibody test is apparently very close (initial batch of 3.5m that key workers can use at home is due to be released in the next couple of weeks).

A immunization certificate for those that can prove they have natural immunity? Not sure, but essentially I don't think we'll be in lockdown in 12mths time - if only because the global economy wouldn't survive and we would potentially be in a worse position. While it may take 4-6mths to get back to "normal", restrictions will ease gradually over that time.
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As indicted above, it looks like tour co's are starting to hold back refunds, hoping that ABTA's talks with the Government to introduce temporary changes to current regulations go ahead. I just received the following from Mark Warner:

Quote:
Thank you for your email, which has been passed to me for attention.

We are very sorry that your holiday has been affected by the current Covid-19 crisis and I hope, first and foremost, that you and yours are keeping safe and well.

I know you’ll understand that Mark Warner have been and are working flat out to deal with the ramifications of the cancellation of the remainder of our winter ski season and we appreciate the patience shown by you and our other guests during this unbelievably difficult time. We have been truly heartened and encouraged by the amazing support we have received from our guests during the past few weeks and quite a few of you have asked to transfer your holiday and the monies you’ve paid to an equivalent holiday next winter. If you would like to do this, please let me know and I’ll get a member of our team to get in touch with you right away to discuss the arrangements.

Meanwhile, following the enforced closure of our French and Austrian resorts over the weekend of 14 / 15 March, on 17 March the UK Government advised against all non-essential travel overseas, initially for a period of 30 days. This situation is unprecedented and ABTA, on behalf of the travel industry, is in urgent talks with the Government to introduce temporary changes to current regulations to ensure that customers’ money is protected under these current extraordinary circumstances. You may be interested to follow this link through to the ABTA website which sets out the current position in respect of refunds:

https://www.abta.com/news/coronavirus-outbreak

Until the UK government provides the much-needed clarity and support being urgently sought by the entire UK travel industry, and Mark Warner start to receive the significant refunds we are waiting for from a number of our travel partners such as airlines, hotels and other suppliers both in the UK and overseas, we are not in a position to do anything but put guest refunds on hold for the time being. You may, in the meantime, wish to contact your holiday insurance company as it might be possible for you to pursue that route.

I know absolutely everyone – tour operators and customers alike – is anxious to find a way through the massive repercussions for the travel industry of the Coronavirus / Covid-19 crisis and I promise we will contact you again when the situation becomes clearer.

In the meantime, your patience and understanding are greatly appreciated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
anyone from Netherlands here, maybe can share contacts of consumer protection agency in Netherlands?

Belvilla is offering a voucher, no refund. Which I may not be able to use in full or at all, not sure how it will end up financially and will I be heading mountains next year, plus it was a house for a company of friends, everyone's money frozen, If I will be able to go to mountains next year, part of friends 150% won't go.
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Anyone with any insight of what BA are doing on cancelled flights which were originally Avios redemptions. Option given for a voucher for furture travel but no indication of what the value of that voucher is if I click through that option. Not trying to profit but I'd like my miles back and a refund/voucher of the amount of charges I did pay really
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@Dave of the Marmottes, i am in exactly the same position and wondered the same. I thought to give them a ring in a few weeks
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Dave of the Marmottes, I have been refunded my Avios (plus an Amex companion voucher in one case) plus a little bit of cash (once the £35 "admin fee" was taken off rolling eyes )
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@Yoda, as they did refund avios i would expect/hope for them to be included on a voucher
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I got e-vouchers for Avios flights made with companion voucher.

I could have cancelled them and got Avios + companion voucher refund, but I'd lose £100 and the companion voucher was due to expire anyway.

I don't know how much the e-vouchers are be worth. They also have different prefix to the current e-vouchers and so cannot yet be redeemed.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I received all Avios and cash back. No admin fee. I think it depends if BA has cancelled your flight (in which case you get all cash back) or whether it's a voluntary cancellation (in which case it depends when the flight is due to take off, as to whether you get your cash back).

I was offered a voucher for my cash flights, and they told me that the voucher didn't have a value because it could be used for the same (or similar) route at any time up to a year ahead. I actually knew which flights I wanted, so didn't take the voucher, instead I went for a rebooking and converted a (relatively cheap) Easter 2020 return flight into a Feb 2021 half term trip, London-Geneva.

If it's a Gatwick or City flight in the next few weeks, it's definitely cancelled because BA has suspended operations at those airports. There's still a small number of Heathrow flights operating.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Likewise, all Avios and supplementary cash was refunded, no admin fee, within a few days of the flight (to EoSB) being cancelled.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Locally in the French Alps the level of heartbreak within the ski industry is huge. I don't know of a single person who runs a company in the ski industry who is sat on a bank account full of cash, rubbing their hands at the idea of 4 to 6 weeks of holidays/services that have been paid for that they don't have to provide. Without exception these companies, large and small are trying to balance protecting their business, looking after employees, doing right by their clients and trying to limit damage to their reputations. Ultimately protecting your reputation by refunding and killing the business isn't an option for most.

I have seen many posts on social media and in this form stating that the companies involved aren't thinking of their future reputation. Of course they are. Any company in the industry lives and dies by their reputation. Most companies work their backsides off to try and maintain standards, especially in this day and age. To suggest that companies aren't considering the damage to their reputation when asking clients to claim on insurance is daft.

RE the ESF refunding, I think the refunds were covered by a government scheme and that this won't be the case in the future. I don't have the exact details on this and would be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Given the choice, will you be booking next years trip, a trip likely to cost lots, with a small company who do the chalet and perhaps the transfers, but you tend to need to sort the flights yourself or a big company who is likely to be more financially stable (or at least easier to get your money back from if it all goes wrong). reputation is one thing, but trust is another.

I certainly won't be booking with a small company again for a good while, I suspect many others will be the same.
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@chaletcompanyconfidential, good post, and agreed. I think many people are overlooking the fundamental problem - the money just isn't there to pay all the refunds.

In one commentator's imaginary world "£100smillions are sitting in the bank accounts of travel enterprises, all over the place". A quick look at the accounts of any large travel group would show that's not the case. The money has been spent, there's not much to give back, and there might be a few secured creditors in the queue well ahead of you. Anything that is coming back is probably coming from someone else not getting paid such as staff or third parties like accommodation providers and ski instructors.

In the end, large-scale refunds are going to come either from banks (under S75), the insurance industry (underwriting those ABTA and ABTOT bonds) or Governments. These all put the cost back onto society as a whole.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
snowdave wrote:
@chaletcompanyconfidential, good post, and agreed. I think many people are overlooking the fundamental problem - the money just isn't there to pay all the refunds.

In one commentator's imaginary world "£100smillions are sitting in the bank accounts of travel enterprises, all over the place". A quick look at the accounts of any large travel group would show that's not the case. The money has been spent, there's not much to give back, and there might be a few secured creditors in the queue well ahead of you. Anything that is coming back is probably coming from someone else not getting paid such as staff or third parties like accommodation providers and ski instructors.

In the end, large-scale refunds are going to come either from banks (under S75), the insurance industry (underwriting those ABTA and ABTOT bonds) or Governments. These all put the cost back onto society as a whole.


Absolutely correct. You can't treat the week you book a service for in isolation. I don't know a single company in our area of the French Alps who are set to prosper from this, just the opposite.

As someone else has said, the companies refunding tend to be

1 - Middle men like skiset, or AirBnB
2 - Companies with govt backed refund schemes - ESF
3 - A very small handful of small independents (and fair play to them).

I ran a chalet co for 8 winters, successfully and profitably. I know we wouldn't have survived if we lost that many weeks of bookings and refunded them all. I don't know how I would have dealt with it because for 8 winters I worked tirelessly to give people brilliant service while they stayed with us. Having to make the choices companies are making at the moment would be soul destroying and I don't envy them. But I would be doing the same as they are at the moment.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowdave wrote:
In one commentator's imaginary world "£100smillions are sitting in the bank accounts of travel enterprises, all over the place". A quick look at the accounts of any large travel group would show that's not the case.


It's not imaginary, it's an under estimate, and a 'quick look' won't tell you much. Many UK tour ops are held by German, Swiss, Irish holding companies and 'client money' held in client accounts may not be accounted for as cash in hand because, technically, it isn't. Imagine the sheer volume of Easter and Summer family package holidays all fully or partly paid for. It's a vast number (over 15 million Brits go to Spain alone) and suppliers won't have been paid much in advance if at all yet.

If companies are using client money (including future deposits) to run the company, and they don't have anything left for refunds, then they are trading insolvently and the Directors will have to act sooner or later to appoint administrators or worse. That's just a fact of business life. If I were one of those Directors I'd be taking serious advice right now. If I had a 'credit note' from one of those companies I'd simply set fire to it to warm up a bit.

Quote:
But if you can claim on your insurance instead and (help) save that business then that's a good thing.

spyderjon but travel policies don't cover this scenario. Making a claim just because the tour operator refuses to refund in full for a holiday not delivered, is not covered under any policy I've ever seen. Legally the tour op is meant to protect your money therefore no such insurance cover is required and that's why you won't find it. I hear tale of some being paid out but I wonder if that is for those trips that were curtailed once they had travelled.

Quote:
I don't know a single company in our area of the French Alps who are set to prosper from this, just the opposite.
I’m sure that’s true and it is probably because tour operators don’t pay suppliers in full until after the holiday has ended. You get left without a chair when the music stops.

So to summarise I think there are two types of tour company (1) those in genuine peril, therefore a credit note is probably worthless. And (2) there are companies sitting on your money and not either refunding OR paying suppliers, therefore absolutely go for them, it's YOUR money not theirs.

lenniem you are absolutely right, people's loyalty will last just long enough to use up the 'refund voucher'.

My friend, mentioned above, is freaking out now about the lack of refund for her cancelled family ski trip. I have offered to help and will start digging and will report back!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This is worth a listen: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08856wq
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Pruman wrote:
snowdave wrote:
In one commentator's imaginary world "£100smillions are sitting in the bank accounts of travel enterprises, all over the place". A quick look at the accounts of any large travel group would show that's not the case.


It's not imaginary, it's an under estimate, and a 'quick look' won't tell you much. Many UK tour ops are held by German, Swiss, Irish holding companies and 'client money' held in client accounts may not be accounted for as cash in hand because, technically, it isn’t.


Then can I suggest a more detailed look might help, and would tell you the same thing. All Tui’s stat accounts can be found here https://www.tuigroup.com/en-en/investors and you’ll spot that the company runs a net debt position despite having E2.9bn of client funds (note 32 from memory), in fact you can also see that it’s commotted E1.4 of those funds to third parties and broadly used the rest to fund its business. You’ll find the same with every major airline, hotel, cruise operator etc.

There is no obligation to hold client funds in escrow, you are confusing travel companies with solicitors. Instead, because the regulators recognise the way these businesses are run, they are Bonded with insurance policies via ABTA or similar.

Using client funds for working capital is entirely acceptable and normal in many industries. This might scare you, but banks take nearly all the money you give them and lend it to other people, if enough people ask the bank for their money back, it isn’t all there either...
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
big_ben wrote:
Likewise, all Avios and supplementary cash was refunded, no admin fee, within a few days of the flight (to EoSB) being cancelled.


I tried several times to get thru over the course of a week, including at 06.20 hrs one morning with no luck. It took a special early alarm and ringing at 06.00 hrs when their phone lines open to get through to a holding position! Very Happy I got to speak to a human after a 30 min wait.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Masque wrote:
BUT! . . . down at the consumer end, if your personal or family finances can't afford the financial hit of writing off the cost of a or this holiday then your priorities are not focused to the right goal. Fiscal uncertainty has been in our future for more than a decade. You, me, us need to have a cushion to fall back on in this situation. Some of you may have and are not posting here. Some of you obsessing about refunds may want to take a glance in the mirror and ask if a ski holiday is more important than family security and safety.

Harsh, yes . . . but it's only when you get to my age can you live as if tomorrow will be the same as today.


Not harsh at all just incredibly patronising and incoherent. I have a friend who is (was!) self-employed, doing nicely, and looking forward to the family ski holiday. Now her finances have been suddenly crushed to the extent that the several £000s tied up by (not naming them yet) are really important now. So I say stick to the facts. If your tour operator is refusing a full refund ask them a few questions: (1) Where exactly is the money you paid them (it is still your money) (2) If that money isn't in a proper client account, how exactly is it protected (3) have they paid the suppliers at the other end? (accommodation, transfers, lift pass, ski school etc) (4) The real answer is almost certainly 'no' but, if they say 'yes' and are telling the truth then you need proof and they should have no problem proving it - at most they might have paid a deposit but I'm told it is still normal for them to settle up after the event.

This is not the time to be feeling sorry for businesses. Many are going to fail.[/quote]

Patronising? Of course it is, especially if you feel patronised . . . and you illustrate my point with clinically if obtuse precision rolling eyes I'm not a doomsday prepper, nor a paranoid conspiracy theorist. However Gaea has her own itinerary. We've had plenty of warnings about climate change affecting the man-made economy and if you've not paid attention to how globalisation has manipulated the Global production and market system on both a macro and micro level then you reap what you have not sown. That's not even considering the disease rehearsals we've been through

I'm not responsible for you or your friends lack of fiscal planning, nor your/their Evil or Very Mad willful ignorance explain why the loss of the cost of a family holiday will have the result of destroying their business.

Oh, and don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm some sort of elite. I've had to start from scratch twice and once being homeless. I don't have a credit score at all . . . But I owe nothing . . . Yet I still fly over the Pond to get pizzed with other snowHeads in exotic snow places . . . I also know that that if I have to live for 6 months without income . . . I can Evil or Very Mad

We've been living in uncertainty for a long time, lack of preparation for the future is not why you should be a dick in pointing out that your 'friend' has been a dick rolling eyes
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Masque wrote:
BUT! . . . down at the consumer end, if your personal or family finances can't afford the financial hit of writing off the cost of a or this holiday then your priorities are not focused to the right goal. Fiscal uncertainty has been in our future for more than a decade. You, me, us need to have a cushion to fall back on in this situation. Some of you may have and are not posting here. Some of you obsessing about refunds may want to take a glance in the mirror and ask if a ski holiday is more important than family security and safety.

Harsh, yes . . . but it's only when you get to my age can you live as if tomorrow will be the same as today.


Not harsh at all just incredibly patronising and incoherent. I have a friend who is (was!) self-employed, doing nicely, and looking forward to the family ski holiday. Now her finances have been suddenly crushed to the extent that the several £000s tied up by (not naming them yet) are really important now. So I say stick to the facts. If your tour operator is refusing a full refund ask them a few questions: (1) Where exactly is the money you paid them (it is still your money) (2) If that money isn't in a proper client account, how exactly is it protected (3) have they paid the suppliers at the other end? (accommodation, transfers, lift pass, ski school etc) (4) The real answer is almost certainly 'no' but, if they say 'yes' and are telling the truth then you need proof and they should have no problem proving it - at most they might have paid a deposit but I'm told it is still normal for them to settle up after the event.

This is not the time to be feeling sorry for businesses. Many are going to fail.[/quote]

Patronising? Of course it is, especially if you feel patronised . . . and you illustrate my point with clinically if obtuse precision rolling eyes I'm not a doomsday prepper, nor a paranoid conspiracy theorist. However Gaea has her own itinerary. We've had plenty of warnings about climate change affecting the man-made economy and if you've not paid attention to how globalisation has manipulated the Global production and market system on both a macro and micro level then you reap what you have not sown. That's not even considering the disease rehearsals we've been through

I'm not responsible for you or your friends lack of fiscal planning, nor your/their Evil or Very Mad willful ignorance explain why the loss of the cost of a family holiday will have the result of destroying their business.

Oh, and don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm some sort of elite. I've had to start from scratch twice and once being homeless. I don't have a credit score at all . . . But I owe nothing . . . Yet I still fly over the Pond to get pizzed with other snowHeads in exotic snow places . . . I also know that that if I have to live for 6 months without income . . . I can Evil or Very Mad

We've been living in uncertainty for a long time, lack of preparation for the future is not why you should be a dick in pointing out that your 'friend' has been a dick rolling eyes
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Masque wrote:
BUT! . . . down at the consumer end, if your personal or family finances can't afford the financial hit of writing off the cost of a or this holiday then your priorities are not focused to the right goal. Fiscal uncertainty has been in our future for more than a decade. You, me, us need to have a cushion to fall back on in this situation. Some of you may have and are not posting here. Some of you obsessing about refunds may want to take a glance in the mirror and ask if a ski holiday is more important than family security and safety.

Harsh, yes . . . but it's only when you get to my age can you live as if tomorrow will be the same as today.


Not harsh at all just incredibly patronising and incoherent. I have a friend who is (was!) self-employed, doing nicely, and looking forward to the family ski holiday. Now her finances have been suddenly crushed to the extent that the several £000s tied up by (not naming them yet) are really important now. So I say stick to the facts. If your tour operator is refusing a full refund ask them a few questions: (1) Where exactly is the money you paid them (it is still your money) (2) If that money isn't in a proper client account, how exactly is it protected (3) have they paid the suppliers at the other end? (accommodation, transfers, lift pass, ski school etc) (4) The real answer is almost certainly 'no' but, if they say 'yes' and are telling the truth then you need proof and they should have no problem proving it - at most they might have paid a deposit but I'm told it is still normal for them to settle up after the event.

This is not the time to be feeling sorry for businesses. Many are going to fail.[/quote]

Patronising? Of course it is, especially if you feel patronised . . . and you illustrate my point with clinically if obtuse precision rolling eyes I'm not a doomsday prepper, nor a paranoid conspiracy theorist. However Gaea has her own itinerary. We've had plenty of warnings about climate change affecting the man-made economy and if you've not paid attention to how globalisation has manipulated the Global production and market system on both a macro and micro level then you reap what you have not sown. That's not even considering the disease rehearsals we've been through

I'm not responsible for you or your friend's lack of fiscal planning, nor you/their Evil or Very Mad willful ignorance explains why the loss of the cost of a family holiday will have the result of destroying their business.

Oh, and don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm some sort of elite. I've had to start from scratch twice and once being homeless. I don't have a credit score at all . . . But I owe nothing . . . Yet I still fly over the Pond to get pizzed with other snowHeads in exotic snow places . . . I also know that that if I have to live for 6 months without income . . . I can Evil or Very Mad

We've been living with uncertainty for a long time, lack of preparation for the future is not why you should be a dick in pointing out that your 'friend' has been a dick rolling eyes

Edit fer crappy grammar Embarassed
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Sorry, slushNuts went into brainfart mode Shocked
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Masque, If everyone saved up for an unpredictable event, would the companys not be in business as a result of that? folks wouldnt be stretching their funds and going away. Most folks live month to month with a little left over and save all year for a ski trip/holiday. Are you saying they shouldnt do that?
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