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Refunds and cancellations - who have been the good guys?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
A couple of related stories from last Saturday (sorry, the dog ate my posting and I'm only now able to re-post this) ...

BBC: "Coronavirus: Package holiday firms told to sharpen up on refunds"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53364296

Quote:
The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) has received more than 17,500 complaints from people whose holidays have been hit by the virus.
In an open letter from the CMA, companies have been reminded of the 14-day refund rule for cancellations.


MoneySavingExpert: "Watchdog warns more than 100 package holiday firms over refund delays"

Quote:
In its letter, the CMA tells firms they must now pay requested refunds "promptly" and make sure customers are given clear and accurate information about their rights – including their right to a full refund.

Firms should pay the refunds directly and shouldn't tell customers they need to claim from card providers or insurers instead.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@snowdave, our saga continues rolling eyes As I had not heard anything from the bank I asked them to confirm if the transfer of funds meant that our claim had been successful. Their reply was "we are pleased to say that we have been able to claim the funds. However, a chargeback case is continuing."

I have replied with "I'm just a senile pensioner, me no understand what you are saying."
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Refund credit notes are protected: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53448181 - but vouchers are not.
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Yoda wrote:
@snowdave, our saga continues rolling eyes As I had not heard anything from the bank I asked them to confirm if the transfer of funds meant that our claim had been successful. Their reply was "we are pleased to say that we have been able to claim the funds. However, a chargeback case is continuing."

I have replied with "I'm just a senile pensioner, me no understand what you are saying."
Sorry if I haven't read the entirety of your saga ( Laughing ) but generally with a dispute that you've raised with your bank they assess the case first. If they are confident they will win, they refund you out of their own pocket and continue to pursue the case. In my case (Santander, debit card) I asked a similar thing when they credited my account and they basically said they are continuing to pursue the case, and there's a chance they may take the funds back if it's unsuccessful. That's highly unlikely though. We all know banks aren't in the habit of giving out free money if they're not 100% convinced they'll get it back (from the vendor).

NB: In Santander's case they labelled my refund as 'Snowchateaux refund' so I thought SC had refunded me themselves. Talk about making it unclear!

(This was for ski hire and lift passes, my insurance claim for chalet is still ongoing...)
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@Scam, yes - the bank put credit into my card account not long after I initiated the chargeback, with the proviso that they would take it out again if the claim was unsuccessful. After a few more weeks I received "Stage 2" of the chargeback process, in which the operator attempted to justify their failure to comply with the law and give us a refund (that consisted of about 30 pages of carp). I responded to that by pointing out the flaws in their argument and insisting that the chargeback stand. A couple of weeks ago the credit card bank transferred the credit from the card into my bank account (different bank) which appeared to be a good sign, but I received no confirmation as to the outcome of the chargeback. I queried this and received the above response, so I am none the wiser and still do not know where we stand.

However, it does seem to me (not a lawyer or a banker) that it is indisputable that the operator is acting illegally, and so if the credit card company find for them then they are effectively condoning this behaviour. The process should be simple Toofy Grin
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I'm not sure why your credit card bank would transfer it into your current account bank, but hey.

And once the bank starts the process of a dispute I don't believe you should need get involved. The dispute is between your bank and the merchant's bank, you are out of it.

But hey, hard to know exactly what is going on. Let's just think positive!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Belvilla, after long time in silence, fixed the mistake and compensated all money I spent in the form of voucher. At first the issued voucher for the size of ~25%, like I cancelled holidays by myself. Not great, not terrible, will survive Smile
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Yoda wrote:
@Scam, yes - the bank put credit into my card account not long after I initiated the chargeback, with the proviso that they would take it out again if the claim was unsuccessful. After a few more weeks I received "Stage 2" of the chargeback process, in which the operator attempted to justify their failure to comply with the law and give us a refund (that consisted of about 30 pages of carp). I responded to that by pointing out the flaws in their argument and insisting that the chargeback stand. A couple of weeks ago the credit card bank transferred the credit from the card into my bank account (different bank) which appeared to be a good sign, but I received no confirmation as to the outcome of the chargeback. I queried this and received the above response, so I am none the wiser and still do not know where we stand.

However, it does seem to me (not a lawyer or a banker) that it is indisputable that the operator is acting illegally, and so if the credit card company find for them then they are effectively condoning this behaviour. The process should be simple Toofy Grin


Amex initially treated my claim against Mark Warner as a ‘courtesy dispute’ (their term, I don’t think cc’s offer chargeback, just section 75) - so I had the balance credited onto the card, but a couple of months later it disappeared when MW came back with their force majeure defence, and Amex weren’t interested in my common sense or semi-legal arguments. I’ve had to escalate it to a full blown section 75 now to move it forward and get their legal team involved - unfortunately there are no Legal time frames for those ....
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ecureuil wrote:
Refund credit notes are protected: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53448181 - but vouchers are not.


My worry about this is the statement on It being valid for RCNs issued up to September 30th. I’ve refused the one offered by MW as I want a refund - am I going to have to accept it by October, or risk being exposed if they go bust?
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@Pejoli, I did a charge back on my Barclays credit card (for my Ryan air flight) because the sum was just under the requisite £100 for a section 75. They credited the money pretty quickly but it showed as 'temporary'. However the sum was allowed against my next payment to them and I have heard no more. I assume Ryanair did not dispute it.
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CaravanSkier wrote:
@Pejoli, I did a charge back on my Barclays credit card (for my Ryan air flight) because the sum was just under the requisite £100 for a section 75. They credited the money pretty quickly but it showed as 'temporary'. However the sum was allowed against my next payment to them and I have heard no more. I assume Ryanair did not dispute it.


Ah right, so it’s chargeback for <£100. I think the ‘courtesy dispute’ is actually functionally the same. But - when I tried to argue against the MW response, I was told their legal team do not get involved in these (so any arguments wrt the Package holiday regs weren’t accepted).

Hence I’ve now gone into what seems to be a section 75 black hole, which has a massive backlog, and no mandated timeframes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Pejoli wrote:
CaravanSkier wrote:
@Pejoli, I did a charge back on my Barclays credit card (for my Ryan air flight) because the sum was just under the requisite £100 for a section 75. They credited the money pretty quickly but it showed as 'temporary'. However the sum was allowed against my next payment to them and I have heard no more. I assume Ryanair did not dispute it.


Ah right, so it’s chargeback for <£100. I think the ‘courtesy dispute’ is actually functionally the same. But - when I tried to argue against the MW response, I was told their legal team do not get involved in these (so any arguments wrt the Package holiday regs weren’t accepted).

Hence I’ve now gone into what seems to be a section 75 black hole, which has a massive backlog, and no mandated timeframes.
I think you've unfortunately found out the hard way what one of the downsides of using an Amex is. Their 'courtesy dispute' is essentially a dispute between themselves. This explains it a little; https://chargebacks911.com/american-express-chargebacks/ Whereas VISA and MC are disputing with (I think) the merchant's bank. If that's incorrect then sorry, but the point is that it's an external party.

My other half works for, well let's just say MC or VISA so she has alot of knowledge on that. But not Amex as they operate in an entirely different way. This is interesting; https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/visa-mastercard-chargeback/

Sort-of explains how chargeback is actually just a customer service promise. Hence you can see why Amex might not want to just rule against itself and pay out...
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Today we’ve had successful chargeback claim against Family Ski. this dates back to a holiday booked in the first week of French lockdown on March 14th in fact we were at the Heathrow when we got the call from Family ski to say its cancelled. Initially we had a phone call from them (resort manager) who said they would sort out refunds in good time but their first priority was repatriation on staff and asked us to be patient and not to phone the office which we duly heeded.

Sadly things started to go awry after this. Firstly they issued a notice confirming cancellation but implying customers had cancelled, they did however later update this with more detail and indeed confirming they had cancelled. Their advice was to claim on our insurance first, if that didn’t work and we weren’t fully reimbursed then they could consider refunding the difference.

Of course our travel insurance Co had a different stance (rightly IMO) that they are the route of last resort, and so before starting a claim they asked us to explore chargeback given Family Ski had failed on its obligations to refund (as per their terms) which is what we did.

They wrote to us stating a full refund was ‘impossible’ and would be contesting the chargeback under the ‘doctrine of frustration’ a new one on us! And went on to document a statement where once they take their unavoidable costs out according to them we were due about 50% of the holiday cost back. We ignored this and let the chargeback play its course and today we have a full refund which from the sounds of it would have cost them more than the original due to chargeback costs on top.

I have to say I’m disappointed with Family Ski, we’ve used them a couple of times before and had good holidays, given their failure here to meet their contractual obligations we just couldn’t consider using them again.

A couple of learning for us.

ABTOT are useless, they act as more of a union to its members than as any security for customers, throughout they’ve been recommending their own members try to delay and frustrate refunds citing a supposed imminent change in the law which would mean they could delay refunds.

The good guys
3 Valleys lift Co – excellent, quick no hassle refund, couldn’t have been better

Still waiting
Swissair – as we were to fly into Geneva and the Swiss hadn’t locked down at the time we had to cancel our flights but we are due back the taxes, its been roughly 100days now and they’ve still not processed this.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mr frosty : if you bought your swissair geneva flights by credit card, you could do a S75 claim to your credit card company for the full ticket price, on the grounds that swissair were unable to provide the service for which you had paid. I did this for my heathrow/geneva flights in the last week of march, on the advice of helpful snowheads notably Snowdave. The flights flew, but by then the swiss gov had closed the border to tourists and other non residents without 'compelling reasons'. Had I arrived by plane at Geneva airport, the airline bringing me would have been ordered to fly me away immediately. Therefore the airline would not have let me board at heathrow in the first place.
I think the proclamation by the swiss federal council was on 13 march so the same would have applied to your flights in the week of 14 march. But you should probably do a bit of research to check that.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Re. Swiss, they've been extremely vague on likely dates for starting their refunds-I've phoned them up 3 or 4 times since our flights in April were cancelled-and I have finally lost patience.
Returned the forms for our credit card chargeback this morning, so will see what happens. Read up on Moneysavingexpert where the advice was to do chargeback before Section 75...?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Result!... further to the above, bank have confirmed that the money is ours. Confusion was due to the fact that they haven't had it yet rolling eyes

I claim no expertise, but as I understand it a chargeback is what it says on the tin (and what we have had), whereas S75 is calling upon the CC company's joint liability with the provider.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
peerless ploughman wrote:
Mr frosty : if you bought your swissair geneva flights by credit card, you could do a S75 claim to your credit card company for the full ticket price, on the grounds that swissair were unable to provide the service for which you had paid. I did this for my heathrow/geneva flights in the last week of march, on the advice of helpful snowheads notably Snowdave. The flights flew, but by then the swiss gov had closed the border to tourists and other non residents without 'compelling reasons'. Had I arrived by plane at Geneva airport, the airline bringing me would have been ordered to fly me away immediately. Therefore the airline would not have let me board at heathrow in the first place.
I think the proclamation by the swiss federal council was on 13 march so the same would have applied to your flights in the week of 14 march. But you should probably do a bit of research to check that.
Surely if the flight went then his credit card co would have nothing to do with it. They can only chargeback on 'goods/services not provided' and if he could physically get on a flight to Geneva as advertised I doubt he'd have much luck, regardless of onward travel issues.

My flight to Geneva went on Sun 15th March (without me on it) yet I wouldn't expect to be able to claim like this. This is the only part of my holiday that I'm happy to accept a voucher for. In fact Swiss emailed yesterday to explain that you now have until Aug '21 to use your voucher and it's valid until Dec '21 which isn't bad at all really.

However, you mention the proclamation by the Swiss gov on the 13th March. Are you sure about that? Do you have any further info? To the best of my knowledge all of the resorts started closing on the evening of 14th March (I was packed and ready to go and found out at 10pm...). Up to that point it was business as usual for European resorts.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I have bog standard NATWEST travel insurance with my debit account ( Platinum )

I drove home in an Italian hire car back to BRS airport, Additional costs were in excess of 2k from hertz
Natwest covered the lot

NB i did have screenshots of all the GOV websites day by day showing that venice was in a red zone and not to travel there (Venice airport was our return flight)
Screen shots of EasyJet flights all cancelled, and pics showing it was impossible (To me at least) to book onto the evac flights by easyjet from milan

Fair play to them,
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Scam wrote:
peerless ploughman wrote:
Mr frosty : if you bought your swissair geneva flights by credit card, you could do a S75 claim to your credit card company for the full ticket price, on the grounds that swissair were unable to provide the service for which you had paid. I did this for my heathrow/geneva flights in the last week of march, on the advice of helpful snowheads notably Snowdave. The flights flew, but by then the swiss gov had closed the border to tourists and other non residents without 'compelling reasons'. Had I arrived by plane at Geneva airport, the airline bringing me would have been ordered to fly me away immediately. Therefore the airline would not have let me board at heathrow in the first place.
I think the proclamation by the swiss federal council was on 13 march so the same would have applied to your flights in the week of 14 march. But you should probably do a bit of research to check that.
Surely if the flight went then his credit card co would have nothing to do with it. They can only chargeback on 'goods/services not provided' and if he could physically get on a flight to Geneva as advertised I doubt he'd have much luck, regardless of onward travel issues.

My flight to Geneva went on Sun 15th March (without me on it) yet I wouldn't expect to be able to claim like this. This is the only part of my holiday that I'm happy to accept a voucher for. In fact Swiss emailed yesterday to explain that you now have until Aug '21 to use your voucher and it's valid until Dec '21 which isn't bad at all really.

However, you mention the proclamation by the Swiss gov on the 13th March. Are you sure about that? Do you have any further info? To the best of my knowledge all of the resorts started closing on the evening of 14th March (I was packed and ready to go and found out at 10pm...). Up to that point it was business as usual for European resorts.


I was fairly certain the Swiss announced closures of ski areas on Friday 13th. I recall most European countries announcing this on the 13th, with the French being the odd ones out in confirming no plans to close...only to then announce everything would close a day later.
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milzibkit wrote:
... I was fairly certain the Swiss announced closures of ski areas on Friday 13th. ...

I think you may be right - at least some areas announced they were closing . But this won't necessarily help if the flights were booked independently (i.e not as part of a package), and were still operating.
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milzibkit wrote:
I was fairly certain the Swiss announced closures of ski areas on Friday 13th. I recall most European countries announcing this on the 13th, with the French being the odd ones out in confirming no plans to close...only to then announce everything would close a day later.
Correct. Hilarious that the French waited for everyone to arrive on Sat and *then* announced the closures. Idiots!
ecureuil wrote:
milzibkit wrote:
... I was fairly certain the Swiss announced closures of ski areas on Friday 13th. ...

I think you may be right - at least some areas announced they were closing . But this won't necessarily help if the flights were booked independently (i.e not as part of a package), and were still operating.
And yes. Flights booked independently and we were skiing in Tignes which didn't officially close until Sun 16th.. sort of. I think for my sanity I should just accept the Swiss vouchers rather than chasing for another refund. My flight was only £80 or something.
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So it appears that although Snow Chateaux used the ABTA logo they were not bonded and were just affiliated to the code of conduct. What a farce that ABTA allows this! We pay ABTA thousands each year and jump through hoops with reporting to fulfill the obligations of being a full member.

https://www.abta.com/news/snowchateaux-limited-ceases-trading-advice-customers
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Bit late to this but we had hols arranged for the Brits in Laax in April. Had booked independently, moved the tunnel bookings to later thus year. Had an apartment booked through Sunside in Laax who contacted me a couple of days after the resort shut down in March offering a full refund. We had the money back within a week. We will definitely book and recommend them in future.
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Mrs M just tried to generate & use Lufthansa vouchers for a summer trip. She got as far as adding the vouchers to the new booking and it would only let her enter one of the four. She called Lufthansa for guidance and they said she couldn't use the vouchers as we had requested a refund in April (we hadn't), and that the refund has processed today (highly suspicious) and we should see the money back on the card soon (nothing as yet but no surprise there).

Sounds like a bit of a con to me. We have had no email confirmation of any attempt to cancel the vouchers and get a refund.

Complaint letter written and social media dissing in full swing ATM.

Good news is that we have booked Austrian flights to Innsbruck that worked out cheaper than flying to Munich with LH and the car hire is cheaper from there as well Smile
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This may have already been noted, but I just got an email from SilverSki (old customer, still on mailing list) that they will not be operating this winter...

Quote:
It is with deep regret that we need to inform you all that Silver Ski will not be able to operate this winter due to Covid - 19.

If your holiday claim is still outstanding, please contact the Civil Aviation Authority and use your ATOL certificate. If your lift pass refund is still outstanding please contact us


Shame. I rather liked SilverSki. Sad
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I had the same. Sad to see these companies go like this.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Has there been anything more formal re Silverski ? eg notice of insolvency proceedings

This morning's email just says that they're not operating this coming winter. It doesn't mention the status of the business
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Not as such, But the last line of the email was...


"We thank you for all your loyal support over the last 36 years."

They may not be insolvent, but may just wind the business up. If they are in a similar situation to our friends TO company, they are being hosed by people claiming on CC bookings which are taken straight from them while having to wait weeks and months for refunds from flights and accommodation, and just running out of time and credit for next season.

I hope it isn't the end, I very much enjoyed the trips I used them for, and offered great VFM.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I've seen an email that states all Silverski staff have been made redundant
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I am guessing Len had had enough, he's no spring chicken now. Lots more chalets on the rental market.
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Poster: A snowHead
Ryanair have caught up on refunds.
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From Companies House, as at 31 March 2019 Silver Ski Holidays Limited had a fairly strong balance sheet with £2.75m of assets. (Nat West appear to have an indeterminate floating charge over everything, but that dates from 2003 so it might have been cleared). It may be rather worse by now, but hopefully customers will eventually get their refunds, even if they have to wait until the property asset is sold.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Having sorted refunds / booking shifts out for SFaB and our non-skiing May half term week, we are now trying to sort out refunds for visiting my Mum in Spain. Covid - just keeps on giving. Apparently BA Holidays will refund in 10 working days (added car hire on top of flights which cost a lot more than HT flights) but BA is 21 working days for refunds (HT flights cost originally had back as vouchers). Here's hoping....
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There has been a huge financial hit to the travel industry as a result of Covid-19.
Who should bear that cost ?
Insurance Companies ?
Credit card companies.
The Government has decided that it should be the Tour Operator or the Airline.
Many will go bust or cease trading as a result of this decision.
The government bailed out BA and Virgin but ski chalet companies get no help and see many years of work go down the pan.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@tony c, Lots of business have been badly hit by Covid19. Lots of individuals have too. Sad times.
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Looking ahead to ski season 2020/21 and the possibility of a repeat of the CV-19 shutdown who in their right minds would run a business that incurs overheads of chalet rental,utilities staff wages,food and wine when a government policy is that they end up paying out a full refund to clients affected and the business bearing the cost ?
Expect a few more ski companies to close or withdraw from the market.
Very sad times indeed for the holiday and travel industry.
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@tony c, I have a lot of sympathy with this view. In circumstances that are not the fault of the operator (like pandemics, where they can't get insurance) there is an argument that a limited refund should be permitted, say 90%.

Otherwise the logical consequence is that operators will make fewer advance commitments, and holidays will become more at risk. People may think by booking 6 months in advance they have secured specific travel or accommodation. But the operator, knowing that they may have to refund 100% even if they can't get it back from the supplier, might decide not to secure it until a few weeks, or even days, before travel - and then just refund if at that point they can't get it.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@tony c, while I have sympathy with the plight one should remember that it wasn't the customers who made a decision to run a business with the obligations and opportunties for profit that came with it. The ski industry in particular had a bit of a preview of what external events could do with the Icelandic volcano incident.

The travel sector in general has behaved appallingly to its customers over COVID with lies and obfuscation being commonplace as well as sometimes a wilful misinterpretation of laws. Those that have been completely honest, made every effort to keep customers whole yet can't make a go of it I feel sorry for. The rest - well it's certainly found out the imprudent and overextended.
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Very sad regarding Silver Ski, they had been in it for years. More will follow once furlough ends.
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Good guys, Action Outdoors, refunded nearly immediately.

I would expect next season to go ahead as "normally" as possible but with a whole heap of protection measures in place - this year there was a natural knee jerk as the globe woke up to the problem and had to act quickly.
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