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British skier beaten unconscious by snowboarder

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Are you lot still bickering? You should be out looking for that snowboarder!
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Returning to the original purpose of this post. I hope the victim of this assault makes a speedy and full recovery from his injuries, which by all accounts are serious and potentially life changing.

The description of the attack, assuming it is reasonably accurate, appears to constitute Actual, if not Grievous Bodily Harm, or whatever the Austrian equivalents in law are.

Reports suggest the victim was already on the floor when the perpetrator started hitting him around the head with the ‘borrowed’ ski pole.

I hope the Austrian authorities are striving to identify the perpetrator. I would think there would be plenty of CCTV images of people and groups using that area on the day and that specific location at the time of the assault. Coupled with lift pass use data and possibly eye witnesses, maybe there will be enough evidence to take action.

Regardless of where this perpetrator is, bar, shopping mall, piste, he appears to be a violent and dangerous man. This type of behaviour deserves punishment.

The incident is also a sad reminder of the need to think carefully about context and vulnerability before challenging someone’s behaviour. Many of us, certainly me, have occasionally ended up worse off despite trying to do ‘the right thing’.

Take care out there Sad
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From the article I read the skier didn't wear a crash helmet. Perhaps the snowboarder was just teaching him the value of them.

I'd had firmer instructors myself.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
... I will drop a sarky comment on people as I squeeze past them as they are blocking a cat track or come too close to me, same as I'll flick the finger in traffic in a car.


I used to react in the same way to others' poor driving but I just let it go these days. There are too many nutters out there, just looking for an excuse to escalate. This whole story is probably in tgat category
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A colleague near me recently told a story of his youth. He was thumbing a lift home and he middle fingered a driver that drove past. The car stopped and a guy got out, walked over and clobbered him with a snooker ball in a sock, smashing his eye socket.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Yellow Snow wrote:
Obviously the skiers edges weren't sharp enough and he didn't realise that he could use his skis like a machete in a squabble.


Like this?


http://youtube.com/v/AQgueE5GgQs


Surely this post should be in the chairlift etiquette thread? Toofy Grin
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The post about other issues playing a part in collisions is absolutely valid i think, but also a lack of knowledge of the rules. I put this compilation up not so much for the actual content, but scroll to the comments (you will have to view it on YouTube to do this.) The amount of people complaining about having been "cut off" by kids and supporting a guy who quite clearly is completely at fault wiping a little kid out is quite crazy, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the rules.


http://youtube.com/v/-YfquR9B3h0
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lambert wrote:
15 or so years ago in Les Arcs, a group of us, all pretty good skiers, were gently cruising down a wide red run. Our leader got taken out by one of two snowboarders. They didn't stop or apologise. Our leader dusted himself down and set off after the errant two, with me close behind. He caught them up and nudged one of them over, explaining why he had done it. The bloke looked quite bewildered, until I explained to my mate "it was the other one". Hey ho
There does seem to be too little comment on this thread about possible causes of so many crashes, not just speed......how about drunken skiers/boarders, smoking weed and other substances that put skiers/boarders in a world of their own, listening to loud music in their helmets etc
Just sayin'


That's ridiculous and the leader should be ashamed of himself for a reaction like that.
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thecramps wrote:
The post about other issues playing a part in collisions is absolutely valid i think, but also a lack of knowledge of the rules. I put this compilation up not so much for the actual content, but scroll to the comments (you will have to view it on YouTube to do this.) The amount of people complaining about having been "cut off" by kids and supporting a guy who quite clearly is completely at fault wiping a little kid out is quite crazy, and shows a complete lack of understanding of the rules.


http://youtube.com/v/-YfquR9B3h0


The clip at 0.28 was an incident at Snowbasin early one season that was widely covered in local news and discussed at length on ski forums. IIRC correctly the boarder was only a kid himself (maybe 15) and while clearly he could and probably should have been travelling slower there were clearly mitigating circumstances like the avoidance of the girl from the left and the fact that the young kid a) was probably stationary immediately before and b) was completely screened from view from uphill traffic by his dad who subsequently went postal i.e. you can't plan to avoid things that you can't see. In a way it demonstrates the perils of setting off blind - no way was dad checking uphill on behalf of his kid before allowing him out into traffic. The other notable thing is that nothing in the FIS rules (skier's code in US) says kids get a free pass on them no matter how young.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, If people suddenly change direction and ski across someone else, they haven't cut anyone off. It is always the uphill skier or boarders responsibility not to collide. That is my point. But you knew that.
There is no defence for the boarder in that incident. He was traveling at reckless speed towards a group. He should have chosen a much wider line away from them. It was clearly a gentle piste where families, young kids and learners would be. He may have been young, but deserved a bollocking. I would have done the same. As an adult, I don't need the FIS to tell me that I should gove kids an extra margin of safety. Do you?
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2 ways of looking at it. The Dad is a at fault as it is he who is on a busy piste and has not checked uphill before letting his kid go off. Completely negligent of the guardian to that child. The dad's first instinct is to attack the boarder rather than to look into how his kid is as well.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Layne,
Quote:

A colleague near me recently told a story of his youth. He was thumbing a lift home and he middle fingered a driver that drove past. The car stopped and a guy got out, walked over and clobbered him with a snooker ball in a sock, smashing his eye socket


bloody hell, it wasn't ray "carlin" winstone was it???

I must admit I used to get quite angry when driving, but the older I have got the more mellow I have become, that includes public transport as well. you really don't know what the other persons mindset is like, its just not worth it.

although, going back to your post, i am not sure your colleague sounds like he had much manners anyway, there is no law that says you have to stop for hitchhikers, i may have done a U-turn and splashed him with the nearest puddle if one was available Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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Both were at fault. Someone other than me will have to decide on the % split of responsibility.
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Legend. wrote:
2 ways of looking at it. The Dad is a at fault as it is he who is on a busy piste and has not checked uphill before letting his kid go off. Completely negligent of the guardian to that child. The dad's first instinct is to attack the boarder rather than to look into how his kid is as well.


This. But I'm not excusing the boarder kid - he had responsibilities and wasn't exercising them well e.g. in relation to the girl he only just avoided. NB that run IIRC is the main return from all the mountain to base - so was dad prudent in taking his kid on it? And having done so and successfully hidden his kid from uphill traffic were all skiers on the slope obliged to slow to a crawl because a static adult "may" have been hiding a kid behind them?

If I'd had that go pro view there would have been no way I'd have known a little kid was there in order to give them an extra margin of safety......

Problem with black and white is it is rarely black and white.....


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 13-02-20 14:04; edited 1 time in total
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It's often tricky to make judgements on clips like these due to the reduced field of view, but i reckon:
Boarder at fault for getting too close to first (girl?) skier.
Kid at fault for taking off without looking uphill.
Dad at fault for stopping in the middle of the piste.
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Boarder totally at fault. He gave himself zero margin of error and events conspired against him. The expectation that everyone below you will remain as still as a statue until you pass is unreasonable. If taking avoiding action sends you towards other people, bail out, don't try to slalom through them.
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Riccardo wrote:
Boarder totally at fault. He gave himself zero margin of error and events conspired against him. The expectation that everyone below you will remain as still as a statue until you pass is unreasonable. If taking avoiding action sends you towards other people, bail out, don't try to slalom through them.


Nope FIS Rule 5 also applies
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Nobody is totally at fault. Everyone is at fault.
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@Dave of the Marmottes,

My take is the snowboarder broke rules 1 to 4 before the child broke rule 5 (Father's responsibility). It's possible that the child had fallen over and that's the reason they had stopped in the middle of the piste. If a snowboarder/Skier is not good enough to avoid the first skier then they should be cutting down on their speed.

Quote:
The FIS rules are comparable to international road traffic regulations. Every skier and snowboarder should be aware of these FIS rules in order to protect yourself and others from potential dangers and to avoid accidents on ski slopes.

1. Respect for others
A skier or snowboarder must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others.

2. Control of speed and skiing or snowboarding
A skier or snowboarder must move in control. He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding to his personal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as well as to the density of traffic.

3. Choice of route
A skier or snowboarder coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger skiers or snowboarders ahead.

4. Overtaking
A skier or snowboarder may overtake another skier or snowboarder above or below and to the right or to the left provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken skier or snowboarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movement.

5. Entering, starting and moving upwards
A skier or snowboarder entering a marked run, starting again after stopping or moving upwards on the slopes must look up and down the slopes that he can do so without endangering himself or others.

6. Stopping on the piste
Unless absolutely necessary, a skier or snowboarder must avoid stopping on the piste in narrow places or where visibility is restricted. After a fall in such a place, a skier or snowboarder must move clear of the piste as soon as possible.

7. Climbing and descending on foot
A skier or snowboarder either climbing or descending on foot must keep to the side of the piste.

8. Respect for signs and markings
A skier or snowboarder must respect all signs and markings.

9. Assistance
At accidents, every skier or snowboarder is duty bound to assist.

10. Identification
Every skier or snowboarder and witness, whether a responsible party or not, must exchange names and addresses following an accident.
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PeakyB wrote:


Reports suggest the victim was already on the floor when the perpetrator started hitting him around the head with the ‘borrowed’ ski pole.

The incident is also a sad reminder of the need to think carefully about context and vulnerability before challenging someone’s behaviour. Many of us, certainly me, have occasionally ended up worse off despite trying to do ‘the right thing’.

Take care out there Sad


Quite right, you don't know who you could be starting on and what they might be capable of. As tempting as it can be to wade in sometimes it is probably better just to let it go.
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Layne wrote:
A colleague near me recently told a story of his youth. He was thumbing a lift home and he middle fingered a driver that drove past. The car stopped and a guy got out, walked over and clobbered him with a snooker ball in a sock, smashing his eye socket.


Hell yes you don't know what sort of person you are sticking the finger up to!
Not worth the grief.
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terrygasson wrote:
@Layne,
Quote:

A colleague near me recently told a story of his youth. He was thumbing a lift home and he middle fingered a driver that drove past. The car stopped and a guy got out, walked over and clobbered him with a snooker ball in a sock, smashing his eye socket


bloody hell, it wasn't ray "carlin" winstone was it???

I must admit I used to get quite angry when driving, but the older I have got the more mellow I have become, that includes public transport as well. you really don't know what the other persons mindset is like, its just not worth it.

although, going back to your post, i am not sure your colleague sounds like he had much manners anyway, there is no law that says you have to stop for hitchhikers, i may have done a U-turn and splashed him with the nearest puddle if one was available Toofy Grin Toofy Grin


I am much more likely to let things go now I am older and wiser. Toofy Grin
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I don't think it does. The little kid was barely moving. He and his Dad may have been stationary there because he had fallen and had just got up. There is no excuse for the boarder other than lack of experience, It was an evolving situation and it was easy to see that it would be best to avoid the group. Dad's actions after were OTT physically, but shouting at the boarder, totally fine, he deserved it.
As for it being the main run back in, why shouldn't they be there, they have just as much right to be there as anyone else who have paid there lift pass. If there is a group of learners for example, or a family, or some people who just want to go slowly, yes, the uphill skiers AND boarders should slow to a crawl and pass safely. Bellends who think they own the shop because "they are sooooo good" and charge about passing folk unnecessarily closely "because they shouldn't be there"get on my wires.
And I certainly don't beleive that the kid was "totally hidden".
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@thecramps, Believe me people did frame by frame analysis trying to prove he was visible and it was unconvincing. & the kid moved enough at the last second to go from protected by his dad to totally unprotected.

I guess what we are proving is that even among people who know the rules and try to follow them there is disagreement. Personally I don't believe that there is any hierarchy or priority in the rules i.e. 1-4 do not trump 5 otherwise 5 would make no sense. But bear in mind we are probably in the 30% of slope users who know the rules anyway rather than some made up hotch potch based on their own entitlement..

And any righteousness based on the rules is futile anyway. The rules fairy doesn't fly to your hospital bed and heal any ouchies becaiuse you are right. And litigation is very very difficult
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@Dave of the Marmottes,

Quote:
Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools
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It was a chain reaction, if the snowboarder hadn't broken rules 1 to 4 the collision with the child would not have happened.
I see responsibility with the whoever broke the rules first. If the child had broken rule 5 first and caused the boarder to lose control I'd see it as the child's/father's fault.
Even in isolation (without the child being there) the boarder rode far too close to the father.
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@DB, Nah you have to look at all the rules anyway. It's an academic exercise but had kid/dad not broken rule 5 (& probably 6 for that matter) no collision. Near misses maybe but no collision. A collision normally involves 2 screw ups and any one party can usually avoid it through appropriate vigilance e.g. stop at the side of piste where you can look uphill and therefore be ready to move if a maniac is cannonballing toward you. Or put it another way if the snowboarder was not upright but had fallen and was sliding is he still at fault or should the dad have been looking out for that on a busy slope?

You could say yes anyone who falls defacto breaches Rule 2 but I expect that would be viewed as a harsh interpretation in the context of a sport which it is inherently a risk.
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DB wrote:
It was a chain reaction, if the snowboarder hadn't broken rules 1 to 4 the collision with the child would not have happened.
I see responsibility with the whoever broke the rules first. If the child had broken rule 5 first and caused the boarder to lose control I'd see it as the child's/father's fault.
Even in isolation (without the child being there) the boarder rode far too close to the father.


Can't agree with that at all. Basically what you are saying is sod rule 7 because if rules 1-6 are followed then 7 does not come into requirement. That's not the correct method.

Had the child not moved then there would have been no accident, so to say it is the boarders fault alone is obviously wrong. Blame is shared. It shows how important looking uphill is as even the slightest movement can cause an issue given the chain reaction of (unfortunate) events that could have happened up the slope.

The boarder is obviously too close, that is not in doubt.

It has similarities to someone stepping out in front of a car type accident.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, What a load of trot.
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@Legend., Can't agree. The kid barely moved. Surely you are not saying that you cannot and should not move even a couple of feet without making sure you aren't stepping into someone's path? No one should be passing anyone so closely and it is right that no one should expect it. The boarder was totally at fault.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I can see why there was so much debate over it. I've watched it over & over now.

If you ignore the boarder brushing into the first skier (for which he was clearly at fault) and start watching from when he had to change his line. Focus on the dad and kid. They are both stationary at first. The kid then sets off, without looking, right into the path of the boarder. You could argue that the boarder got far too close to the dad, but an uphill glance from the kid, or the dad, would have prevented the collision.
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thecramps wrote:
@Dave of the Marmottes, What a load of trot.


What's a load of trot? Any danger that you're getting overly emotive because a little kiddiewinkle was involved. Imagine all parties are near equal sized adults and yet dad decided to totally screen mum from uphill view. And mum still sets off blind.

I'm not forgiving the boarder. I'm just not giving a free pass to dad because his behaviour is endangering his child, whether he knew it or not. Worth considering for those that consider "blocking" on the piste a sensible tactic. You have to put in a 100% effective screen at all times to prevent idiots defeating it, and in the meantime more responsible parties haven't seen your kid either:

"I'll just ski round this dude giving him plenty of space.....oh crap who put that kid there!"
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:


I'm not forgiving the boarder.


Good because he's 90% to blame, imo.
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@Legend.,
No I‘m not saying sod rule 7. People will be stationary in the middle of the piste because they fall over etc. Looks like you are saying if the boarder hadn‘t of hit the kid everything would have been OK. Dangerous driving is ok as long as you don’t have a crash? Yes the kid and father were at fault too, I just put the majority of the blame on the boarder. In no way am I saying that the father hitting the boarder was the proper response either.
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This is so simple, and it seems to me that the same people rehash the same nonsense every time there is any discussion about fault on the slopes.

I have never collided with anyone on a piste, not gave I come close to doing so. Because I follow the rules about being in control, adapting to conditions, traffic and ability. I allow downhill skiers sufficient space top make any voluntary or involuntary movement (including setting off without looking).

I suspect those who argue that it is not always the responsibility of the uphill slope user to avoid the downhill slope user either:
1. Have a sense of entitlement, and expect others below them to stay out of their way/ski in such a way as to never cause them to slow down or change line
2. Ski beyond their capability to stop and/or avoid those below them on the slope when they do something freaky.

Take responsibility and ski within your abilities rather than try and justify an uphill slope user crashing into a downhill slope user. There is absolutely no doubt this is the snowboarders fault. I do not condone the father hitting another kid however.
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@zikomo, Good for you but that's not what the rules require in completeness. I expect people to set off without looking because that's what experience tells me will happen. But that doesn't put them in the right and me in the worng if I end up a bit closer to them then they are comfortable with (because it's their action that has closed down the safety gap).
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<laughs> In this fantasy rules-based world, no one ever "skis beyond their capability".
You could get rid of releasable bindings for a start, then.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, If you are coming from uphill, and crash into someone below you, it is your fault. If you will not or cannot ski in such a way as to avoid that happening you are at fault.

That being said I will exit this discussion now, you are one of a sizeable minority who simply refuse to take responsibility and display a very worrying sense of entitlement to whatever speed and line you want to ski with scant regard for others. I wonder how many close calls you have had in your skiing career? I would guess quite a few.
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@zikomo, Completely agree, especially about the entitlement of some people.

@Dave of the Marmottes, boarder never gave any dude plenty of space. He was at fault, 100%.
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@zikomo, Nice simplistic world you live in. Well done. But we've had this debate before and you weren't persuaded then either. Maybe one day someone will jump switch from tree cover onto a cattrack you are on and you'll be hit (happened to me last year). Then you'll appreciate the importance of rule 5. Until then.....


and like we said before you know nothing about how I ski but keep up the ad homs anyway....


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 13-02-20 17:50; edited 1 time in total
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