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Driving to Alps in electric car

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Change is coming. To each the choice of when to make it.

When there's a coherent plan and not before.....many do more than tootle down the shops. wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Gordyjh wrote:
A friend in the motor trade reckons battery driven cars have too many drawbacks. He thinks fuel cells are the future.


So did about 120 people here in Norway, who brought hydrogen fuel cell cars that they can’t use any more. All 3(!) hydrogen filling stations where closed in summer of 2019 due to an explosion at one of them. No plans for them to reopen any time soon.

For comparison, there are over 250,000 electric cars and over 115,000 plug in hybrids currently on the roads in Norway with over 13,500 public charging stations/points. You can build a charging station/point anywhere you have electricity.

The cost of building a network of hydrogen filling stations will be cost prohibitive.
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

A friend in the motor trade reckons battery driven cars have too many drawbacks. He thinks fuel cells are the future.


So does a friend of mine who worked at Johnson Matthey, who mine/refine various elements for use in catalysis. From his & their point of view, the problem is ideally to be solved by a fine metallic catalyst... much as they provided fine metallic catalysts to remove exhaust gasses. While the industry goes through such a fundamental change, it is quite normal to see the solution in terms of what exists today.

FWIW, I think that the 'solution' for the majority of urban/suburban transport will be shared and available on demand, leaving the long journeys to the Alpes as the exception. For those taking shared, short journeys of the sort that @ozboy mentioned, it may turn out that Uber is a better solution than buying a car of any sort. Looking at my own teenagers, I'm wondering why I need the expense of their learning to drive. Then I remember that we live in the countryside and that taxis and public transport are thin on the ground!

Of course, there are many people who's daily work today involves many long journeys that are long, irregular, not amenable to the kind of solution that favours those whose journeys tend to be <10 miles each way. But I reckon the majority of journeys will be amenable to some form of transport on demand, with the longer journey requirements satisfied by a rental.

We aren't there yet, though. For today, it feels like @ozboy would be able to make it to the Alpes with a bit of creative planning, but an electric car isn't suited to the standard full-on charge down the autoroute that many of us do today.
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Gordyjh wrote:
A friend in the motor trade reckons battery driven cars have too many drawbacks. He thinks fuel cells are the future.



Hydrogen?

Much less efficient
Much more expensive
Almost no infrastructure
Storage tanks have a limited life
Leaks out of everything
Needs to be pressurised to 10,000 psi
Needs batteries
Corrosive


Toyota is currently paying 6 months of lease /loan payments for mirai owners in California, no fuel, no filling stations.

Mirai used value has dropped from 60k to 13k in 2 years.

They took the cars back in Norway when all the filling stations closed after one of the last 2 blew up.

No one will want a hydrogen fuel station near where they live (as in South Korea).

Hydrogen cars have already failed.

EV is too big to fail now, whether it was the best alternative to Hydrogen or any other tech. who knows!?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The obvious contention of carrying additional weight around for a hybrid doesn't really stand up to a rational scrutiny.

The "full electric" has to carry it's battery weight regardless of how much power it's already consumed, some of them exceed 500 kilograms. Fuel density is extremely good for liquid fuels (there lays one of the challenges) as many will be carrying a depleting 60kgs from full to empty.
snow conditions     
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Wasting hours standing around in a grim carpark recharging a glorified toy car while everyone gets bored is not a vacation.

Take an airplane.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Since French electricity is mainly from nuclear power, I quite like the idea that my car is nuclear powered in France Happy

Of course, that does mean that it's sometimes coal powered in the UK. At some point, "very smart" charging will enable me to be mainly wind-powered.

Some years ago I did a lot of research and financial analysis for funding of various of the major fuel cell initiatives. I can't see any of them working; the closest I think anyone really got was ethanol and ammonia fuel cells, which solved the H2 generation/storage problem, but these had lots of challenges of their own.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Spoon wrote:
Gordyjh wrote:
A friend in the motor trade reckons battery driven cars have too many drawbacks. He thinks fuel cells are the future.


So did about 120 people here in Norway, who brought hydrogen fuel cell cars that they can’t use any more. All 3(!) hydrogen filling stations where closed in summer of 2019 due to an explosion at one of them. No plans for them to reopen any time soon.

For comparison, there are over 250,000 electric cars and over 115,000 plug in hybrids currently on the roads in Norway with over 13,500 public charging stations/points. You can build a charging station/point anywhere you have electricity.

The cost of building a network of hydrogen filling stations will be cost prohibitive.


Norway is a good example of how to do it properly... Helps of course that all their electricity is renewable.

I think the hydrogen argument will become redundant for passenger vehicles because we are already approaching the tipping point where electric cars have widespread acceptance and there is a good enough network of charging points to alleviate range anxiety. Notwithstanding the possible safety issues (this is my line of work... personally think the risks are overblown but when you're dealing with members of the public, any rational perception of risk goes out of the window NehNeh ).

I can see a use case for something like buses which go to and from a central hub where you can keep all your hydrogen. And you have some central control over it.

The other issue with hydrogen is that most of what we currently have available is made by steam reforming methane which is absolutely terrible for the environment... CH4 + O2 -> CO2 + 2H2. Known as "grey hydrogen" Laughing Only works with CCS/CCUS in place ("blue" hydrogen), which we've shown we are absolutely terrible at incentivising in this country. The other option is electrolysis of water using renewables, but that is a little way from being economical. The catalysts are very expensive at the moment so you need them to be working near-continuously (and even then it's not really cost effective), and with renewables being intermittent it is very hard to make a business case for it. I know there are some cool projects in the pipeline though.

I'd have an electric car in a heartbeat for my usage, unfortunately I don't have offstreet parking where I could charge it. They need to fix that to get really widespread uptake.
ski holidays     
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
snowdave wrote:
Since French electricity is mainly from nuclear power, I quite like the idea that my car is nuclear powered in France Happy

Of course, that does mean that it's sometimes coal powered in the UK. At some point, "very smart" charging will enable me to be mainly wind-powered.

Some years ago I did a lot of research and financial analysis for funding of various of the major fuel cell initiatives. I can't see any of them working; the closest I think anyone really got was ethanol and ammonia fuel cells, which solved the H2 generation/storage problem, but these had lots of challenges of their own.


Coal's almost gone and will be completely gone by 2025. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48473259

I think the thing is any new technology is going to have some switching cost, it's a bit unrealistic to expect it to be free and easy. It's then up to the government to incentivise and regulate it to encourage the switching and development of infrastructure.

Then at some point, the technology and uptake will have improved such that it becomes the obvious choice (this is basically what's happened with renewables - depending where you live, wind and solar are very often the cheapest way to get electricity today, and that definitely wasn't the case 10-20 years ago).
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@bobmcstuff, Sadly some upside-down thinking by the Austrtalian government

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/08/private-investors-wont-touch-new-coalition-backed-coal-plant-labor-says
snow conditions     
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Ozboy wrote:
@bobmcstuff, Sadly some upside-down thinking by the Austrtalian government

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/08/private-investors-wont-touch-new-coalition-backed-coal-plant-labor-says


Fortunately the electricity going into your car in the UK isn't coming from Queensland!
snow conditions     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
bobmcstuff wrote:
Spoon wrote:
Gordyjh wrote:
A friend in the motor trade reckons battery driven cars have too many drawbacks. He thinks fuel cells are the future.


So did about 120 people here in Norway, who brought hydrogen fuel cell cars that they can’t use any more. All 3(!) hydrogen filling stations where closed in summer of 2019 due to an explosion at one of them. No plans for them to reopen any time soon.

For comparison, there are over 250,000 electric cars and over 115,000 plug in hybrids currently on the roads in Norway with over 13,500 public charging stations/points. You can build a charging station/point anywhere you have electricity.

The cost of building a network of hydrogen filling stations will be cost prohibitive.


Norway is a good example of how to do it properly... Helps of course that all their electricity is renewable.

I think the hydrogen argument will become redundant for passenger vehicles because we are already approaching the tipping point where electric cars have widespread acceptance and there is a good enough network of charging points to alleviate range anxiety. Notwithstanding the possible safety issues (this is my line of work... personally think the risks are overblown but when you're dealing with members of the public, any rational perception of risk goes out of the window NehNeh ).

I can see a use case for something like buses which go to and from a central hub where you can keep all your hydrogen. And you have some central control over it.

The other issue with hydrogen is that most of what we currently have available is made by steam reforming methane which is absolutely terrible for the environment... CH4 + O2 -> CO2 + 2H2. Known as "grey hydrogen" Laughing Only works with CCS/CCUS in place ("blue" hydrogen), which we've shown we are absolutely terrible at incentivising in this country. The other option is electrolysis of water using renewables, but that is a little way from being economical. The catalysts are very expensive at the moment so you need them to be working near-continuously (and even then it's not really cost effective), and with renewables being intermittent it is very hard to make a business case for it. I know there are some cool projects in the pipeline though.

I'd have an electric car in a heartbeat for my usage, unfortunately I don't have offstreet parking where I could charge it. They need to fix that to get really widespread uptake.


My take is that H2 will be part of the solution for long distance and heavy vehicles - battery long distance trucks are a ridiculous idea, the battery would become massive, expensive and eat your payload. I suspect H2 cars will be available for those people who frequently drive long distances. Ponit taken about grey H2 but noone thinks the long term solution is grey H2 it will either be blue H2 with CCS or electrolysis. The latter will make sense when we have so much renewable power that we need to frequently store excess electricity when the wind blows or in the summer midday - then the power is free.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
jedster wrote:
My take is that H2 will be part of the solution for long distance and heavy vehicles - battery long distance trucks are a ridiculous idea, the battery would become massive, expensive and eat your payload.

Or we just put stuff in containers on a train. There won't be nearly as much need for trucks in the UK after the end of the year.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I saw a serious presentation the other day on the benefits of fitting overhead powerlines over motorways so that heavy vehicles with pantographs on them enabling them to run directly from electicity. Large batteries on the truckwould then allow them to move the relatively short distances from the motorway junction to the distribution shed. It was argued that this would cost less than the original estimate for HS2 and proove much more environmentally sustainable. Of course the vehicles would have control systems fitted to enable automatic road following and close interaction with the vehicles around them to form convoys and reduce wind resistance and drag.

My suggestion to have steel wheels and road surface reducing rolling resistance and hence energy consumption were, for some reason, ignored.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I did read an article a few weeks ago which suggested that Battery electric is an interim step, and that really 10-15 years should see Hydrogen fuel cells becomming cheaper, and genuinely mainstream. Personally I remain unconvinced about the real long term impact of an ever-increasing number of batteries being replaced,recycled, dumped into the environment.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/electric-cars/101196/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vs-battery-electric-cars-which-are-better
ski holidays     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I have an I-pace, which I love and it does around 200 miles if I’m doing 75mph on the motorway. Rather than a hybrid I’d suggest you go full electric, then if you don’t feel confident taking it to the alps just hire a diesel car for that one trip. The amount you’ll have saved on fuel in the rest of the year will pay for the car hire.
I think the Tesla supercharger network in Europe though is pretty impressive. A friend has a model x and made it from Manchester to Düsseldorf at Christmas. It cost her nothing to charge but £300 in diesel the year before! The Tesla’s charge so much quicker than everything else and their network seems more reliable. I’d love to try the drive in my ipace but know my husband wouldn’t do it in a normal car never mind in this one! Just requires slightly more organisation (think about where you will stop, and be prepared to drive to the next stop if necessary). In 4 months of having it I’ve only had to wait 20 mins for a charger to be free once. Hopefully the installation of infrastructure keeps up with the rising sales of eVs.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowdave wrote:
Since French electricity is mainly from nuclear power, I quite like the idea that my car is nuclear powered in France Happy

Of course, that does mean that it's sometimes coal powered in the UK. At some point, "very smart" charging will enable me to be mainly wind-powered.

Some years ago I did a lot of research and financial analysis for funding of various of the major fuel cell initiatives. I can't see any of them working; the closest I think anyone really got was ethanol and ammonia fuel cells, which solved the H2 generation/storage problem, but these had lots of challenges of their own.


Real-time percentages of UK power

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Coal: 4.9%
Gas: 29%
Wind: 31.2%
Nuclear: 13.9%
Other (solar, biomass, imported etc.): 21%

Pleasantly surprised to see the percentage for wind - as the dashboard is real-time I wonder whether that is time or year / storm related?
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Lozza1uk wrote:
I have an I-pace, which I love and it does around 200 miles if I’m doing 75mph on the motorway. Rather than a hybrid I’d suggest you go full electric, then if you don’t feel confident taking it to the alps just hire a diesel car for that one trip. The amount you’ll have saved on fuel in the rest of the year will pay for the car hire.
I think the Tesla supercharger network in Europe though is pretty impressive. A friend has a model x and made it from Manchester to Düsseldorf at Christmas. It cost her nothing to charge but £300 in diesel the year before! The Tesla’s charge so much quicker than everything else and their network seems more reliable. I’d love to try the drive in my ipace but know my husband wouldn’t do it in a normal car never mind in this one! Just requires slightly more organisation (think about where you will stop, and be prepared to drive to the next stop if necessary). In 4 months of having it I’ve only had to wait 20 mins for a charger to be free once. Hopefully the installation of infrastructure keeps up with the rising sales of eVs.


Yeah - won’t last forever though, extra taxation will kick in soon and in any case Tesla (Musk) is not in it for the cars, they built cars to encourage mass adoption. The money will not be in competing with Japanese and German branding and manufacturing.

The real Tesla revenues will be from the Gigafactory and the Supercharger network for non-Teslas...
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Gigafactory that produces batteries.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Electric cars make sense only as a little local runabout, charged at night from the existing mains supply. And quite a lot of people can use cars like that.

You could have a Tesla used like that, too, if you want a bit more comfort.

Anything else e.g. a Tesla used for 200 miles per trip, is not viable. Most UK houses can get no more than 18kW (80A) in total, for the whole house, and anything past that needs a 3 phase supply. Check with UK Power Networks for some amusing info e.g. the cost, and their requirements on running the cable to the house. I had it done many years ago but that was in the countryside where the 3 phase was on poles just outside; cost was about 2k. On top of that you have a few k for an electrician (they print their own money) to wire up the house end (I did that myself back then; today they would refuse to connect to it). In an urban setting it's usually a lot of digging. Only the most authentic champagne socialists are likely to bother. And if more than about three per average UK street are doing this, the transformer at the end will blow up. Just as well, since the distribution upstream can't support it, and the generation isn't there by a large factor. It will be decades before anything can be changed on this.
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Peter Stevens wrote:
Electric cars make sense only as a little local runabout, charged at night from the existing mains supply. And quite a lot of people can use cars like that.

You could have a Tesla used like that, too, if you want a bit more comfort.

Anything else e.g. a Tesla used for 200 miles per trip, is not viable. Most UK houses can get no more than 18kW (80A) in total, for the whole house, and anything past that needs a 3 phase supply. Check with UK Power Networks for some amusing info e.g. the cost, and their requirements on running the cable to the house. I had it done many years ago but that was in the countryside where the 3 phase was on poles just outside; cost was about 2k. On top of that you have a few k for an electrician (they print their own money) to wire up the house end (I did that myself back then; today they would refuse to connect to it). In an urban setting it's usually a lot of digging. Only the most authentic champagne socialists are likely to bother. And if more than about three per average UK street are doing this, the transformer at the end will blow up. Just as well, since the distribution upstream can't support it, and the generation isn't there by a large factor. It will be decades before anything can be changed on this.


I did 750 miles in 4 days last week in my electric car, and it only took me about an hour longer (in total) than it would have done in an ICE car, plus I didn’t have the inconvenience of visiting a petrol station. It charges overnight using a 7kwh charger and I’m averaging just under 3.5p a mile vs 11p in my previous diesel. It’s not for everyone yet I agree but there are a lot of people making up a lot of reasons why it will never happen. I reckon unless you’re doing 250 mile round day trips (250 mile overnight trips are fine) regularly it’s entirely doable in anything from a Renault Zoe to a Tesla. But then I have a job that involves promoting the uptake of electric cars Blush
Although if I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t have taken the job Very Happy
snow conditions     
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Not wishing to come across as argumentative but...

Lozza1uk wrote:


I did 750 miles in 4 days last week in my electric car



and

Lozza1uk wrote:


it only took me about an hour longer (in total) than it would have done in an ICE car,



...because


Lozza1uk wrote:


It charges overnight using a 7kwh charger



Is entirely consistent with all the posts made in this thread. Good to know there is a live use case for daily trips within the range of the EV from a regular sole charging point.

The original question sought to explore the practicalities / feasibility of doing 750 miles in a day or two using public charging facilities.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Looking at the Tesla charging options, I don't think so, from home. Google it...

If using public charge points, it's obviously possible if you plan the route accordingly, hang around a lot, and don't make any mistakes Smile
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@Lozza1uk, I’m with you on all this, and it’s not any part of my job Happy.

My dad lives in North Yorkshire. Last time I drove the 235 miles home (at 70 for the 190 miles of motorway) I arrived with 39 miles left on the range meter. I hadn’t charged en route at all.

In 6000 miles in my petrol car I probably spent 5-6 hours in filling stations. In the same distance in the EV I’ve spent under 3 at public chargers, and 1 of those was whilst having lunch.

Add to that the near silent experience, basic autonomous driving and incredible smoothness, for me it’s a superior method of transport.
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@sasha320, Here’s how I was going to do it.

Full charge at home, top up at tunnel terminal whilst having loo and food stop. Gives me 200-250 miles range from Calais.

Then either 1 hour charge en route over lunch giving another 150 range (assuming only a 50kw charger - remember Tesla’s can use the public chargers as well as own brand). This gets me comfortably to an overnight stop, or another hours charge to get 150-200 more miles range and get to destination. Clearly I then need destination charging but if I’m there for a week then even a wall socket will give enough juice.

If I have access to (and can use- my car tops out at 75kw) 150kw charging then it’s all moot as that is little slower than as petrol pump. However the chargers are rare at present.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@snowdave, interesting and thanks for the detailed plan.

One question - how do modern batteries cope with low temperatures likely to be found in or heading to/ from a ski resort? Last time I hired an electric car (3 years ago, and it was already a 2 year old car) it didn’t like the cold and range plummeted... interested to hear whether things have changed...?
snow conditions     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Whitegold wrote:
Wasting hours standing around in a grim carpark recharging a glorified toy car while everyone gets bored is not a vacation.

Take an airplane.


Happy


http://youtube.com/v/eiF6hqUKG6Q
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
sasha320 wrote:
Not wishing to come across as argumentative but...

Lozza1uk wrote:


I did 750 miles in 4 days last week in my electric car



and

Lozza1uk wrote:


it only took me about an hour longer (in total) than it would have done in an ICE car,



...because


Lozza1uk wrote:


It charges overnight using a 7kwh charger



Is entirely consistent with all the posts made in this thread. Good to know there is a live use case for daily trips within the range of the EV from a regular sole charging point.

The original question sought to explore the practicalities / feasibility of doing 750 miles in a day or two using public charging facilities.


Fair point, but I think 750 is doable in a Tesla with the supercharger network. My friend did the 800 miles to Düsseldorf. She gets about 200 miles in 15 minutes charge. I wouldn’t do it in the ipace because the non-Tesla network isn’t reliable enough, at least not in the uk.
ski holidays     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Where is this leccy coming from? Look at https://www.licencebureau.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/road-use-statistics.pdf. Page 8 says cars accounted for 244.4 billion vehicle miles in 2014. That's 670 million per day, or almost 28 million per hour (on average).

The Leaf and Tesla battery/range figures indicate you might expect to get about 3 miles per kWh of battery charge

This means that if/once all cars were electric/battery, the grid would have to supply an average of an extra 9.3 Million kW every hour above what it does today. The difference between night time and daytime energy generation in the UK is currently about 10-15GW, but if you restrict charging to between 8pm and 8am then you're going to need to generate an extra 18.6 GW during that time. So you still have to find 3 to 9GW of extra capacity from somewhere. Minimum demand is actually between about midnight and 6am, so about one quarter of the available time.
http://gridwatch.co.uk/

To be self sufficient the UK would need to build 2-3 extra Hinkley point C's coming online from 2035 onwards will do it. Is the planning permission in place yet? rolling eyes
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Judwin, not everyone will need to charge their cars every night - I would guess under half (perhaps well under) would be charging at any one time.
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Poster: A snowHead
denfinella wrote:
@Judwin, not everyone will need to charge their cars every night - I would guess under half (perhaps well under) would be charging at any one time.


The figures are averages - Doesn't matter if not everyone is charging every night - the average load over a whole year to support cars travelling 244.4 billion miles is 9.3GWh. It's in the nature of averages that if the average is 9.3 GWh, then there will be periods above this, and periods below it. If everyone hopes/expects to charge between midnight and 6am, then you'll need an average of 37GWh extra during that 6 hours. That's more than doubling the current daytime output, and treble the night time output.
ski holidays     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Going back to the original question, yes it’s possible. It takes about 14 hours, including two and half hours of charging en-route to get from Buckinghamshire to Tignes in a Tesla Model S (90D with 82kWh useable battery). That is 775 miles.
That would be about 6 charging stops. NB it is much quicker to charge from 10% battery to 70% and then go, than try and charge to 80/90/100% when en-route (you effectively ‘surf’ along the chargers). I drive at 130kph.
I have a Model S and also drive it on occasion around the UK (250+ mile journeys) and it’s fine.
It does require a different mind set though and if you’re a road warrior that likes to do 600 miles plus without stopping then EV’s won’t necessarily suit you.
I’m on a Tesla owners forum and plenty of others drive theirs around Europe on road trips too (free fuel makes it attractive!!).
Without wanting to be a Tesla fanboy - I think it would currently be difficult in another EV - the range of the Tesla cars is good and the charging speed and infrastructure excellent. Tesla charging sites tend to have 12 or more 120kW chargers and the cars have live data of how many are in use and it is inbuilt to the cars SatNav and onboard computer. Thus even is a site was full, statistically you’d only wait 5 minutes or so for someone to leave (I’ve never had to wait).
If you buy another marque you’re largely on your own, and the public infrastructure is still not great. The other manufacturers are starting to get things together and are now building out the ionity charging network.
As an aside the arcane laws around wayleaves in this country make it a difficult process to get new large power supplies put in place - 12 chargers can need 1MW of power.
I’ll try and post some pics of a route plan / charging stops.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stuartrose wrote:
Going back to the original question, yes it’s possible. It takes about 14 hours, including two and half hours of charging en-route to get from Buckinghamshire to Tignes in a Tesla Model S (90D with 82kWh useable battery). That is 775 miles.
That would be about 6 charging stops. NB it is much quicker to charge from 10% battery to 70% and then go, than try and charge to 80/90/100% when en-route (you effectively ‘surf’ along the chargers). I drive at 130kph.
I have a Model S and also drive it on occasion around the UK (250+ mile journeys) and it’s fine.
It does require a different mind set though and if you’re a road warrior that likes to do 600 miles plus without stopping then EV’s won’t necessarily suit you.
I’m on a Tesla owners forum and plenty of others drive theirs around Europe on road trips too (free fuel makes it attractive!!).
Without wanting to be a Tesla fanboy - I think it would currently be difficult in another EV - the range of the Tesla cars is good and the charging speed and infrastructure excellent. Tesla charging sites tend to have 12 or more 120kW chargers and the cars have live data of how many are in use and it is inbuilt to the cars SatNav and onboard computer. Thus even is a site was full, statistically you’d only wait 5 minutes or so for someone to leave (I’ve never had to wait).
If you buy another marque you’re largely on your own, and the public infrastructure is still not great. The other manufacturers are starting to get things together and are now building out the ionity charging network.
As an aside the arcane laws around wayleaves in this country make it a difficult process to get new large power supplies put in place - 12 chargers can need 1MW of power.
I’ll try and post some pics of a route plan / charging stops.


This is great evidence of a fully optimised EV trip to the Alps - in particular the cruising speed of 130kph is interesting, as is the 'surfing the chargers' concept. However it looks like you were in the driver's seat for 14 hours? Maybe you shared the driving with someone? Or the charging stops were sufficient to recharge the 'human battery' as well!?

The reason I ask is not because I am an EV denier and looking for any excuse to push back on EVs, nor because I am finger wagging at anyone for driving for extended periods - I find the tax advantages and 'free' electricity very appealing and am considering an EV myself (before 'car' electricity starts getting taxed along the lines of fuel duty).
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@stuartrose, How do you charge it up in Tignes ?
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@Inboard, my leaf struggled a bit with the cold (it was a gen 1 2011 model so very old battery tech). So far the Niro seems very resilient (much newer/better battery tech), but I’ve not had it down to -10c type temperatures as it’s been a mild winter in Essex this year. Leaving it parked in sub zero cold for a few hours or more will lead to some range depletion (tho if you charge it before departure that warms the batteries and largely compensates). The Niro has a very efficient heat pump heater (Teslas, despite their premium/luxury position, have an old fashioned resistive heater like my Leaf had, and it was quite inefficient) so there’s very limited range impact from heating the cabin.

Driven gently, cruising at 65-70mph, my Niro will comfortably achieve 4miles/kWh. The one key unknown for me would be the energy consumption in the final long uphill to a ski resort. If I read @stuartrose, correctly above, his Tesla used 53% of its battery to do the final 81miles which doesn’t seem too bad for the long cold uphill stretch. Bear in mind it might have regained ?10%? on the way back down the hill, so unlike an ICE car, it’s not totally wasted.
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@Ozboy, interesting reading. It may be that 1 of them turns out to be the Betamax & 1 the VHS. I suppose it depends which is adopted as the standard for porn Toofy Grin
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This recent study from Norway provides a bit more detail on long journeys in cold (but not arctic) temperatures, and real range.

The upshot is that most cars were about 20% worse than rated range when driven in cold and wet (-6 to +3C) conditions.

https://www.motor.no/artikler/2020/januar/elbil-rekkeviddetest-minutt-for-minutt/

It's not a "perfect" study, because two of the cars that are very similar (Niro and Kona) got quite different results despite same drivetrain/battery. However it feels directionally helpful.
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Keep your diesel cars well maintained, and don't buy anything new. That's where most of the CO2 goes, - manufacture. We should all have old cars. Less consumption is it, not new anything. Drive at an efficient speed. obviously this basic point is not nice for motor manufacturers, or car lovers like me. Cuba here we come!
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