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Horrible experience at the Pas De La Casa park.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Kids had been riding to the side of the kicker landing. In the 4th run the Park caretaker went up and shouted at about 10.of them.standing up there. He was super aggressive and my two came to me in tears.

I spoke to him when he came down. He it's too dangerous to ride off the side - only allowed to ride off the 5ft Pro line kicker. I get that - over cooked flat landing if your hitting it at speed - but no one was. So as 90% of the people are not able to do the pro kicker - why not build a smaller kicker next to the big one? Not enough snow apparently. Yea? Enough for a big wedge but not for a small? Instead of answering that he said it's written on the sign coming into the park and as we had broken the rules (as did the other 50 people that afternoon) he should take our week pass from me and my 2. My son went to say something but he said to him - I am a adult, you are a child. I am right, you are wrong. Wtf???

We left and noted the jump was effectively a ghost town. Very few can do something that big.

My conclusion. Just poor park management by the wrong person for the job. Relying on a sign that no one reads is not safe. If you don't want people riding the side, put up some X poles. Going up there every 2 hours and having a shout is not the way. Or better build a small kicker which shared the landing of the big one - there was easily enough snow for that. Provide for the 90% as well as the 10% pros. It's supposed to be a fun park.

Anyway - kids don't want to ever go back to Pas. Pity as they loved it up to that point.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I will start by saying the guy obviously didn't handle the situation well and I can understand why you are upset with him.

On the flip side I've seen it too many times small children that should not be in the park getting in the way of others putting themselves and others in danger. If the features are outside your ability you shouldn't be there (this is true regardless of age).

5ft is not a "pro-kicker". 5ft would be a small or medium in the parks in BC (I don't have other resorts to compare too). It's clearly not out the realms of a semi decent skier/snowboarder.

The fact you failed to read the sign is no excuse. In my experience the park is roped off with a small entrance that you are forced to enter through. The sign is usually placed here meaning you have to ride straight past it. Maybe different there, but still ignorance is not an excuse.
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Sounds like the guy was perfectly in order, maybe he was over assertive but I guess he was trying to prove a point to you and others that safety is the main priority. He was managing the situation and probably didn’t want to face the consequences either personally or parents coming at him if there was an accident in which one of their kids was injured.
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It’s pretty impressive that despite only hearing your side of the story my sympathies are almost entirely with the park manager!
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Am I the only one to have no idea what is meant by "Kids had been riding to the side of the kicker landing." and "He it's too dangerous to ride off the side - only allowed to ride off the 5ft Pro line kicker. I get that - over cooked flat landing if your hitting it at speed - but no one was. So as 90% of the people are not able to do the pro kicker - why not build a smaller kicker next to the big one?"
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Sorry, but you're in the wrong here. Playing in the landings and off the sides of jumps is genuinely very dangerous for both your kids and anyone hitting the jumps, who won't see your kids 'til they land on them. Them's the rules, in every park - despite the name they're not playgrounds!

Otherwise poo-poo like this happens: https://www.newschoolers.com/videos/watch/744416/Kid-gets-rocked-on-landing

And yes, in the case it is the kid (/their parents) in the wrong. The normal 'downhill skier' rules don't apply in the park.
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OK so the guy sounds like an officious jobsworth of the kind particularly common in France and could probably do with a little training in 'customer facing dos and don'ts'.
But... I think you (and your kids) would be a lot more upset had one of them left Pas with a broken spine from somebody, 'just coming out of nowhere' and landing on them at 40+mph. It doesn't matter how quiet the park seems; it only takes one impact!
The thing is, a 5ft jump is very far from being a pro jump but you still need a bit of speed to hit the landing which you can't see from the take off and the funny thing is, once you're in the air, it doesn't matter how much or little you are off the ground, you're not going to be changing direction.
Playing on jump landings is begging for trauma! Would you let them play football on the dual carriageway? "Well it was night, there didn't seem to be a lot of traffic." It's basically the same.
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Always entertaining when a please-validate-me post is so self-incriminating.
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muddewater wrote:
Am I the only one to have no idea what is meant by "Kids had been riding to the side of the kicker landing." and "He it's too dangerous to ride off the side - only allowed to ride off the 5ft Pro line kicker. I get that - over cooked flat landing if your hitting it at speed - but no one was. So as 90% of the people are not able to do the pro kicker - why not build a smaller kicker next to the big one?"


No, perhaps you're also an old git like me who doesn't do fun parks. It's about snow park stuff, you have to be down wiv the kids. You can always google it wink
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People taking young kids through the park is a bug bear of mine too.
They take them through the Stash, and they are still snow ploughing.
Or encourage them to go on the small boxes but so slowly that they stop and have to pole along.
Or just treating the jumps as mounds to ski up and over slowly.
I would understand if there were no beginner jumps - but there are.
There's the green line in La Chapelle park, and the LIL Stash, so there's no need to be putting riders and the kids in danger by taking them to the bigger hits - just don't do it.
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WindOfChange wrote:
People taking young kids through the park is a bug bear of mine too.
They take them through the Stash, and they are still snow ploughing.
Or encourage them to go on the small boxes but so slowly that they stop and have to pole along.
Or just treating the jumps as mounds to ski up and over slowly.
I would understand if there were no beginner jumps - but there are.
There's the green line in La Chapelle park, and the LIL Stash, so there's no need to be putting riders and the kids in danger by taking them to the bigger hits - just don't do it.


I think this is a good comment.

All kids need to start somewhere, he'll minecstarted freestyle at 4, but obviously at super low level and lesson number one was don't stand in the sodding landing Or go anywhere near the big stuff (yet).

There are plenty of kiddies parks with little kickers, boxes, even low lever rails to not need to go anywhere near the freestyle parks.

For me, if they aren't going to or dontchavecthe capability of hitting the kicker, don't go in the park!
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I guess you had to be there....

It's the 21 century. Shouting at kids to the level where they are crying without telling them that they did wrong or why it's wrong is very old school. If I shout like this outside the school gates - or when I'm coaching my u13's - social services would be all over me.

Building a fun park with ONLY one jump in it - which is a ProLine (his words) 5foot kicker to a 10foot downslope landing - is very old school.

Modern parks are all about progression and safety. The foundation of safety is design - not about rules that everyone (Inc me) zoomed past. Include small,med,large jumps in the park - suitable for all skiers abilitirs. Design the park it so there is no need to ride to the side of the kicker.

I completely understand how going off the side of a kicker can be dangerous. The park manager is correct in enforcing it. If someone straight lined it from 10m above the drop in point - they would over cook the landing - either off the kicker or off the side. Splat!

Anyhow - sounds like many of you on here are much more forgiving of the park manager that I am.
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@earl, before I rush to judgment what language do your kids speak? If they are anglophone perhaps the park manager did not speak it very well and therefore came across much more aggressive than he meant. More information would help me to decide what the cause of the problem was.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The guy sounds like a knob, but "no one reads the sign" doesn't make it okay for your kids to be somewhere they aren't supposed to. It's early season so most resorts will not have their parks fully developed, that's understandable.

Okay so matey shouldn't have been yelling at kids, but if they hadn't already been in the wrong then he wouldn't have had to.
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Poor you, they didn’t build a facility that suited your needs so you should be able to do what you like.

God forbid that you read a sign, or take some responsibility, or accept the fact that you were wrong, or appreciate that not doing all of the above is gonna wee wee off the guy who has to scrape up your kids and deal with your nonsense when they get splatted. Urgh.
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earl wrote:
I guess you had to be there...

It's the 21 century. Shouting at kids to the level where they are crying without telling them that they did wrong or why it's wrong is very old school. If I shout like this outside the school gates - or when I'm coaching my u13's - social services would be all over me.


Depends on the kids (and I don’t want to make assumptions about yours). I work with young kids as a full-time outdoor instructor where I do sometimes have to be very assertive for safety/welfare reasons, and some of them do get quite emotional when confronted with the concept of being in the wrong, even when there’s a genuine risk of them being very badly hurt if they continue.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As the OP says none of us were there and we only have one side of the story, but the notion of how the OP's kids don't want to return somewhere because a grown-up shouted at them is madness - being shouted at by adults, be it your parents, your teacher or another adult, is all part of life's education, and whilst it's perfectly natural to feel a degree of distress at your kids crying equally that should be balanced against the fact that kids aren't always angels and should sometimes be firmly told off by the appropriate person.

Far too often in all environments I see little kids behaving disgracefully and the parents think it's funny and wouldn't dream of telling them off, without any consideration for others - recently we were dining on an outdoor terrace of a restaurant and a group of around 8 kids, whose parents were all dining inside, were running the terrace area nearly crashing into tables and people and yelling their heads off, which totally ruined our enjoyment of the meal (and I'm sure other diners too). So, when this continued unchallenged for 5 minutes, I stood up and firmly shouted at the kids about how it wasn't a playground and told them how inconsiderate they were, which the parents couldn't help but hear/see. The parents immediately controlled their kids, but never apologised to me and only glared at me when they left. The restaurant staff apologised profusely and said they wanted to tell the kids off themselves but were worried how the parents would react.

Fast forward 20 years and how are such kids going to behave as grown ups when they think they can do as they please without ever being challenged ?.
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@pavel38, +1

My own kids have occasionally complained of being shouted at by a sports coach etc. Leaving aside that it is hard to be heard on a hockey pitch, rugby pitch or swimming pool if you speak at moderate volume, the main point was their feeling affronted at the coach (and sometimes I was the coach) telling them to stop doing something.

Of course, to the OP's original point, I wasn't there and don't know what that person said. Clearly it was enough to upset his children and that has spoilt their enjoyment of a sport that we all love. That is not a good outcome, whatever way we see it.

But I do agree with many on here that a park is an extemely dangerous environment (even more so than normal skiing) and that this may warrant a forceful expression.
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Sounds like the park worker didn't handle it in the best of ways, but that could partly be due to translation issues. I do agree with him saying something to the kids however. Parks are not playgrounds, they are dangerous places and far too many people use them without any respect or knowledge of the rules/etiquette. There have been a number of times when I have had to say something to parents/kids/others about their behaviour endangering themselves and others: Stopping to chat in the landing of a jump, speeding straight in to the park and to the jump line without a thought or look at the people waiting to drop or indeed the rider that had just dropped who was then cut up and forced to slam the brakes on, wildly veering from one line to another, the list goes on.
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Quote:

Clearly it was enough to upset his children

Who were probably equally put out by the reaction of their father. The job of a parent in such a situation is to be grown up and help defuse the situation, perhaps get the kids to apologise to the park guy (who would almost certainly have been nice to them, especially if he realised he'd been a bit of a Dick) and left with smiles all round and a lesson learnt. Not nursed the grudge and posted on the internet about it. Nor suggested that the park should arrange to have two jumps of different severity sharing the same landing ramp..... even never having been in a park I can see some snags with that suggestion.
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Quote:

OK so the guy sounds like an officious jobsworth of the kind particularly common in France

In the interest of clarity Pas de la Casa is in Andorra not France.
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Good point, @Claude B.
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pavel38 wrote:


Far too often in all environments I see little kids behaving disgracefully and the parents think it's funny and wouldn't dream of telling them off, without any consideration for others - recently we were dining on an outdoor terrace of a restaurant and a group of around 8 kids, whose parents were all dining inside, were running the terrace area nearly crashing into tables and people and yelling their heads off, which totally ruined our enjoyment of the meal (and I'm sure other diners too). So, when this continued unchallenged for 5 minutes, I stood up and firmly shouted at the kids about how it wasn't a playground and told them how inconsiderate they were, which the parents couldn't help but hear/see. The parents immediately controlled their kids, but never apologised to me and only glared at me when they left.


Sounds like Portugal and by extension Spain or Italy. Children can do nearly no wrong.
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Claude B wrote:
Quote:

OK so the guy sounds like an officious jobsworth of the kind particularly common in France

In the interest of clarity Pas de la Casa is in Andorra not France.
Naturally, I do know that, but jobsworths of that kind are particularly common in France. N'est Pas?
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A horrible experience?
Sorry, but someone shouting safety instructions at some kids, well that doesn't even come close
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Quote:

jobsworths of that kind are particularly common in France. N'est Pas?

selon moi, non. Plutot ils existent un peu partout
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I taught sea kayaking and surf lifeguarding for 20 years and would like to think that generally I am soft spoken and fairly quiet, but when I saw an immediately dangerous situation I would bellow!
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admin wrote:
Claude B wrote:
Quote:

OK so the guy sounds like an officious jobsworth of the kind particularly common in France

In the interest of clarity Pas de la Casa is in Andorra not France.
Naturally, I do know that, but jobsworths of that kind are particularly common in France. N'est Pas?


We are still missing the key information. Was he wearing a yellow vest?
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To what welshskier said - we all would bellow but I bet we all would also take the time to explain what we were bellowing about and why it's dangerous to go off the side - he didn't. He just threaten to take their passes away.

I thought about the language thing? a translation issue? When I spoke to him his English was within a nats chuf of (its technically my second language too). And he was just as aggressive to my kid then too.

In my book - if there is only enough snow to build one jump - don't make it a 5ft kicker with a 2.5m gap to the knuckle (yes I measured it because I was considering giving it crack). I've ridden well enough parks to know there are plenty of alternative constructions until they get a another dump. When I make a suggestion he threatens to take our passes away.

Look - just a very bad experience for us. My kids are generally pretty resilient but in this case Pas will be off my family books forever. Pity for as we really enjoyed the resort otherwise and it's a good alternative to the Alps
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@earl, One trip to Andorra is more than enough.

You're to move onward and upward. You'll find much nicer resorts and much nicer people in Austria, Switzerland and Italy
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Quote:

don't make it a 5ft kicker with a 2.5m gap to the knuckle


If you are only going to have a single jump this is actually a really good choice. It's small enough for intermediates looking to get a bit of air, but probably provides enough for more experienced to practice some small spins and grabs. Unless you are going to a resort with a focus on parks it's not surprising they don't have many features yet, they grow as the season goes on. Could also be an issue of lack of snow - looks like the base is only around 30-70cm.

Everyone is telling you the same thing. The guy was probably right, but went about it the wrong way. You seem to not want to accept any blame on the part of yourself or your kids. Many of us have seen it multiple times kids not using the park features correctly, getting in the way of others, and putting themselves at risk. If you enter the park you agree to abide by the rules, and if you can't use the feature as designed you need to stay well clear.
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earl wrote:
Kids had been riding to the side of the kicker landing. In the 4th run the Park caretaker went up and shouted at about 10.of them.standing up there. He was super aggressive and my two came to me in tears.

Anyway - kids don't want to ever go back to Pas. Pity as they loved it up to that point.


All I see is a snowflake super daddy raising up two sensitive snowflakes. Good, less snowflakes on the mountain - more mountain for others.
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kosmoz wrote:
earl wrote:
Kids had been riding to the side of the kicker landing. In the 4th run the Park caretaker went up and shouted at about 10.of them.standing up there. He was super aggressive and my two came to me in tears.

Anyway - kids don't want to ever go back to Pas. Pity as they loved it up to that point.


All I see is a snowflake super daddy raising up two sensitive snowflakes. Good, less snowflakes on the mountain - more mountain for others.


Wait, don't we need snowflakes on the mountain in order to slide downhill on snow?
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admin wrote:
jobsworths of that kind are particularly common in France


...surprisingly casual observation. Is this a forum that encourages nationalistic generalisations? Where is the thread about the English Laughing
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@polo, the whole forum is a damning indictment of the British Laughing
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, Laughing
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Snowflake?
Think about the profile of the users on the forum. I bet we all bring up our kids in a pretty similar fashion. And our kids are all pretty similar - work hard at school, a few clubs - play a instrument or such.

And as parent we are all aware of the snowflake syndrome. So do you honestly think any of my kids - or any of the kids on here are treated as snowflakes?
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Some of you may have never ridden park - so in my experience as a very average park rider here is how I approach a 5ft kicker.

Stand at the top - watch a bunch of riders do the jump. Drop in, roll pass the kicker and jump off the side - noticing the speed to the approach and the slope of the landing. That's my first pass. Hike back up, do exactly the same thing. That's my second pass.

I now have 2x experience of the drop in and the landing. If I'm happy I'll do the kicker.

The only people who go straight off the kicker are either idiots or awesome. I'm definitely not the later and I try not to be the former.
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I send my kids straight down first, see how it goes for them and take it from there. I’ve got 2 kids get 2 x the experience zero risk of injury.
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Snowflake is a new phenomenon profligated firstly by Trump supporters then Brexiteers. Thrown around randomly and anonymously online. Rough translation "anyone who isn't a moron like me".
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