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What is the technique for using piste-only skis on thick powder?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
For deeper stuff I try for a quiet upper body and retraction turns etc. Kinda like skiing bumps.
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@spyderjon, fractionally more difficult but arguably more elegant and satisfying snowHead
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"Bouncing" doesn't really work for me as a mental image. Maybe for the first turn or two to start bending the skis, but the regular tempo of bouncing like you would do on the trampoline dictates a turn size that you might not want to do, or might not be appropriate for the terrain you are skiing right then. As the terrain varies we all change our turn size and shape, so trying to impose a uniform turn because we are trying to 'bounce' seems like poor tactics. From what I can remember of that run down from the Hirafu peak, the snow was genuinely deep and very heavy by Japanese standards so needed a lot of vertical movement to link turns. A little bit lower down the same face where the snow was lighter it didn't need so much movement to link turns. This is a longer version of the same clip that @kitenski, linked to, showing different turn sizes and shapes as the terrain and snow varied:

Niseko 2012 - Part 3 from InsideOutSkiing
https://vimeo.com/36220598

And a clip from Morzine, again showing a variety of turn sizes which wouldn't be possible with a metronomic bouncing:

Fresh powder in Morzine, 24 January 2014 from InsideOutSkiing
https://vimeo.com/85041345


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 5-01-20 17:27; edited 1 time in total
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Something weird going on with the snowHeads autocorrect feature on the word m o v e m e n t in my last post!
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@rob@rar, Bouncing is Old School, like up unweighting on Piste. It was for short turns Off Piste, which was the defacto way of skiing it. It's now "mostly" obsolete, due to modern Freeride ski design.

I can remember getting some Atomic 11.20 Freeride skis, which were seen in their day as being very wide @70mm underfoot - they (and others, like the Salomon X Screams) were seen as a game changer, regarding how you could tackle Off Piste, with fast long turns.

Skis now, are totally different, allowing much more versatility.....not that you need telling. Toofy Grin
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rob@rar wrote:
Something weird going on with the snowHeads autocorrect feature on the word m o v e m e n t in my last post!

It's trying to link you to the Move ment ski brand, like if you type Scott or Whitedot.
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OK, maybe bounce isn't a great expression; perhaps rhythm is a better term.
Off piste skiing is all about flow. Using the terrain, using the snow depth and consistency, using your skis. I don't think that aspect is something that can be taught. One can have as many lessons as one likes for technique but nothing tops time on your skis. @rob@rar, your Morzine video highlights that perfectly (great technique).
@spyderjon, I think your mogul analogy is good too. There are real similarities in terms of weighting. There aren't many good bump skiers who can't ski powder.
@kitenski, your vid looks like a lesson? BASI course perhaps. Not much flow going on.
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zzz wrote:
OK, maybe bounce isn't a great expression; perhaps rhythm is a better term.
That works much better for me. A lot of the time you don't want to bounce immediately from turn to turn, instead you want to work the turn itself, stretch it out, work the bottom of the turn to build a platform from which you flow in to the next turn. At other times banging from turn to turn is what's needed, and a mental image of bouncing might be appropriate. For me, the key is not to rush or snap at the turn, keep things progressive, don't get static, and as you say, build a rhythm which works with the terrain and the snow that you have underneath you at the time.
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@zzz, yeah well spotted, BASI L2 variables in that first video posted.

liking rhythm (that can vary) vs bouncing as something to think about.
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@rob@rar, that video's made me want to return, forgot about the slo mo face shots!
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Quote:

Bouncing is Old School, like up unweighting on Piste. It was for short turns Off Piste,


+1
Still works though, for piste skis. Just need to be gentle, relaxed, supple, subtle n not rush it. Of course you bunch of crude ruffians don't have a clue. snowHead
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kitenski wrote:
@rob@rar, that video's made me want to return, forgot about the slo mo face shots!
Yup, although there were a couple of days just before Christmas in Les Arcs where it was just as deep in the trees. Always nice to get great snow in December.

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AL9000 wrote:
Quote:

Bouncing is Old School, like up unweighting on Piste. It was for short turns Off Piste,


+1
Still works though, for piste skis.
Although not absolutely necessary. In my clip above skiing powder in Morzine I was on piste skis, and they're happy enough to open up the turn shape without needing to bounce from turn to turn.
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AL9000 wrote:
Quote:

Bouncing is Old School, like up unweighting on Piste. It was for short turns Off Piste,


+1
Still works though, for piste skis. Just need to be gentle, relaxed, supple, subtle n not rush it. Of course you bunch of crude ruffians don't have a clue. snowHead

All the Old School stuff still works - it's just either been made redundant, or has gone out of fashion.

When Carving became "The Thing", I was amazed to find skidding, side-slipping, Wedelling and Short Swings were now seen as sneaky Expert manoeuvres. Toofy Grin
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@Old Fartbag, skidding and side-slipping, and short swings are still very valid and helpful tools in the toolbox.

I was skiing with a guide and a BASI trainer once and the guide complimented me on the subtlety of my side-slipping while muttering about “that guy being a trainer?”.

Pleased me no end.
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Side-slipping is the only bit of skiing I'm really good at. At least it means I can get down most things. Toofy Grin Embarassed
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under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, skidding and side-slipping, and short swings are still very valid and helpful tools in the toolbox.

I was skiing with a guide and a BASI trainer once and the guide complimented me on the subtlety of my side-slipping while muttering about “that guy being a trainer?”.

Pleased me no end.

I know - but somehow they got lost in the "Carving Mania". That may have changed now, as carving is "Old Hat".
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@Old Fartbag,
Quote:

carving is "Old Hat"

Is it? Shocked
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@Hurtle, this was on a particular slope, well and truly off-piste, where a controlled side slip with a bit of slow forward motion was essential to access the couloir we wanted, and also to avoid going off the 1,000m cliff not far below us.

I mean, totally doable and safe if you knew how to side slip with control and some precision.
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I'm a great fan of a tacticle sideslip. Very useful especially if you need to get down a steep slope out of your comfort zone. It is also a good pointer to how well you are balanced on your skis.
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@under a new name, erm, I haven't exactly tested my skills at that level. Shocked
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Hurtle wrote:
@Old Fartbag,
Quote:

carving is "Old Hat"

Is it? Shocked

What I mean, is it's now not so "New Fangled", like when Carving Skis were first introduced. I think the balance of teaching the full Tool Box, is now better.

One of the Darren Turner Videos alludes to the Carving craze, when he amusingly talks about "Carving Gloves" and even "Carving Underwear".
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Old Fartbag wrote:
All the Old School stuff still works - it's just either been made redundant, or has gone out of fashion.


My Austrian ski touring mates who started skiing 40+ years ago bounce about like mad hatters. In their view if you don't ski the fall line you are wasting powder and messing up the slope. The more short turns they get in the better.

From 1:00 onwards in this clip is what they see as good powder skiing.

http://youtube.com/v/4vz2e_WxyMI
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Old Fartbag wrote:
One of the Darren Turner Videos alludes to the Carving craze, when he amusingly talks about "Carving Gloves" and even Carving Underwear".
Which is ironic given how few skiers you see linking carved turns.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 5-01-20 19:19; edited 1 time in total
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@Hurtle, you just need to totally not focus on the possibility of rapid, unplanned, death.

@pieman666, also the “racing sideslip”, a most useful technique, well employed, e.g. entering the Kanonenrohr in the Inferno and across the “meadow”.

The scariest “meadow” I have ever experienced.
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@DB, also known as “farming” the snow.

I think the apparent bounce is inevitable. Also kinda fun.
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@DB, Old Austrians (and maybe not so old) are often in a time warp.

I joined a Class in Obertauern a few years ago, just to have someone to ski with....and was taught like I was in the 80s!
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Old Fartbag wrote:
AL9000 wrote:
Quote:

Bouncing is Old School, like up unweighting on Piste. It was for short turns Off Piste,


+1
Still works though, for piste skis. Just need to be gentle, relaxed, supple, subtle n not rush it. Of course you bunch of crude ruffians don't have a clue. snowHead

All the Old School stuff still works - it's just either been made redundant, or has gone out of fashion...


TBH I don't go off piste anymore, but there was a dump last year and my quads gave up (as usual). So I stood up, said "F this", went old skool n bounced my way to the nearest rifugio for a caffe latte. Worked a treat, no probs.
Now that's what I call "sneaky expert manoeuvres" snowHead
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@Old Fartbag, but that’s good skiing, bang up to date.

Short turns in powder, will involve some apparent bouncing, unless emplying the retraction turn, which is not well known, and a wee bit more tricky to get fluid.
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@under a new name,
Quote:

you just need to totally not focus on the possibility of rapid, unplanned, death.

Sounds like a good plan.
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rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
One of the Darren Turner Videos alludes to the Carving craze, when he amusingly talks about "Carving Gloves" and even Carving Underwear".
Which is ironic given how few skiers you see linking carved turns.

That is a reflection of many people stopping lessons once they can get about. The people who post on here are not the norm.....alluded to by Steve Angus on the VDI thread.

(BTW. I talk better than I ski - as I now only get one week per year.)
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Old Fartbag wrote:
@DB, Old Austrians (and maybe not so old) are often in a time warp.

I joined a Class in Obertauern a few years ago, just to have someone to ski with....and was taught like I was in the 80s!


Tell me about. Although I do take their point that nowadays a lot of skiers can get away 'skiing' offpiste on wide skis by doing little more than standing on the skis and ploughing through the powder irractically with no farming. In their world it's a real skill to ski the fall line at speed with short turns skimming the powder from one turn to another incorporating fine pressure control and release with a nice flow and an efficient use of the powder.
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Peter Stevens wrote:
Yes I know one isn't supposed to be doing this, but if you only have the one pair of skis handy and it snowed heavily overnight so there is say 10cm of powder.

Someone said you need to point down the hill first and get some speed. If you try carving right away you just get stuck, as I found...



Yes, in this new myopic age whereupon skis must be about one hundred miles wide underfoot so as to remotely get down a mountain, I guess anyone who is a heretic like myself and abhors/eschews skis wider than 80mm underfoot - I'm max'd out at 78 and ski EVERYWHERE is looked upon with contempt. Or, is it envy? I deliberately have kept a set of way old school 66mm underneath to still get out on from time to time as they are so dear and visually stunning and if it was possible to attach a photo of them to this board - which is impossible, I would.

This wide ski nonsense is just that. And it SO detracts from real skiing - the ability to carve......., REALLY carve. And face it, a good 90% plus of what we ski on IS NOT powder. If it ain't up to at least your knees, it ain't powder, folks. Today's skiers vis-a-vis all these ridiculous wide skis THINK they are skiing. No, they're just puttering around on a slope like a bunch of silly roly-poly. I'll refrain from the hysterical avalanche airbags/backpacks. That one is pure P.T. Barnum! Oh, I'm laughing so hard at that! Brings back memories of one of skiing's all time beyond embarrassing gaffs........... And truly gomer American, at that : Diving mask and snorkel. And no, I never did. I just shook my head. And laughed.

You want to ski powder? True powder? Ski it. Heck, I was skiing it back on the day in those aforementioned 66's.........



[img][/img]

And for the dear questioneer.......... Your 10cm of dust needs to grow a bit, more like 50cm at a minimum. Yes, get some speed up - it's a friend, look upon your skis as being one, not two (your skis are, of course, independent, but work them to act as "one"), equal your weight distribution on both as best you can, stay loose, make shallower - longer radius turns with weight/unweight timing and it's around the third turn you start getting that essential rhythm that is beneficial to true powder skiing. Hopefully you will find yourself someday in deep snow and whatever the effort to acquaint yourself with its rules via trial and error (and tie off a good six feet of florescent streamer on both skis!), you will come to learn true powder's language, above all "the float". It's ALL about the float........ The float. You do not need wide skis. Skiing in true powder actually realizes/achieves higher/easier technique to that of hard pack.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 5-01-20 20:07; edited 1 time in total
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@arcsinice, are you sure you logged into the correct ski forum?
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Brightly coloured ski bases is what it's all about wink


http://youtube.com/v/dooEVgLOybo&t=148s
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arcsinice wrote:
It's ALL about the float........

I also believe it is.

Whether the skis floats to the surface depends on:

- Weight
- Surface Area
- Speed
- Ski design

If you weigh more, you need more surface area to float (everything else being equal).

Back in the day, you skied In the Powder, not On the Powder.
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Hurtle wrote:
@arcsinice, are you sure you logged into the correct ski forum?


Just when we thought we were safe after all these years, someone else from Epicski has finally found us. wink


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 5-01-20 20:00; edited 1 time in total
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@DB, Laughing
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@arcsinice, Smile


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@arcsinice, exactly that, all of that Happy
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