What is the truth about boot linings (heating them up / injecting wax)?

A snowHead

Like a lot of people I have funny shaped feet Smile

and have had to spend some time and money on the boots.

Different ski shops say different things.

One shop sold me Salomon boots, X-Pro 95, with "custom" liners. The boot was heated up and the liner was heated up. The whole process was impressive and produced a comfortable fit, but over time I discovered that the boots were about 1cm too wide, so on the occassions when one is not carving, the skis wobbled. One could tighten up the boots but the circulation would be affected before it made much difference. Also I had to have the boots heat-modified around the ankles five (5) times, before somebody realised the real problem is that I am flat footed and (with new boots) sold me some €100 Sidas carbon fibre insoles which fixed that issue.

To solve the boot width, I went to a more fancy ski shop in Switzerland which laser scanned my feet and, out of their absolutely vast stock of boots they recommended a Head Nexo 110 LYT. The man said the liners cannot be heated; there is only a wax injection option. The wax went into the gap behind and above the foot, basically, and clearly helped. They had other, more expensive, liners which had wax injection options for the rest of the foot also. And the carbon fibre insoles solved the ankle problem, as mentioned above.

A year or so later, I was still having problems so revisited the issue at another ski shop. The man told me the liners I had could (and should) have been heated but now that any wax has gone in, you can't do it anymore. So I bought some €195 thermal-fit Sidas liners and they seem to have done the job. They get heated to about +85C and it looks like I could do some extra stuff with them using a domestic oven, by sticking rubber pads on my feet (where there is still pressure) and sticking my feet into the boots until they cool down.

So basically no two people told me the same thing, or did the job right Smile

The total to date is something like

£300 on the Salomon boots (with heat-adjusted liners)
€200 on repeated adjustments to the above, at various ski resorts
€450 on the Head boots
€100 on the carbon insoles for above
€195 on the heat-adjusted liners for above

A snowHead

@Peter Stevens, you are remarkably good humoured for having gone through all of that! I've also found that nearly everyone in the boot fitting world says that nearly everyone else is doing it wrong. It's difficult to know whose opinion to trust.

I'm far, far from an expert! But it sounds to me like the first shop put you in a Salomon boot that was too big, then heated the boot and liner up to make it even bigger and softer, and this produced comfort at the cost of performance. You then had that boot heated and stretched again, which would only have made it bigger still.

With your second pair of boots, from Head, the shop took up volume by adding material to the liner which suggests that the boots were too high in volume to begin with. Your purchases of liners and insoles are all probably attempts to compensate for an ill-fitting shell.

In my very limited experience, you need to get a shell that fits you well and that is even possibly slightly too small in a few spots. A good bootfitter can then stretch the shell in spots to relieve pressure points. It's easy to make a shell bigger; I'm not sure if it's even possible to make it smaller.

Lots of people on here have used and recommend Colin at Solutions for Feet in Bicester. I've not used Colin's services myself, but he's given me excellent advice and he's absolutely one of the people I would trust. But it sounds like you've now found a solution that works for you, with Head boots and Sidas liners?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Yes the current boots and liners and carbon insoles seem to be fine.

You are dead right in that just about everybody slags off everybody else.

The last shop told me that if you stick your foot into an empty boot (no liner) and push it all the way to the front so the toes touch, there should be 1.5cm of room behind the heel. My current (Head) boots have 2cm there but if this was reduced I would need some tweaks to the boot, around the heel, and tweaking boots is a hassle because each time the shops charge say €30 (though some will do repeated visits, all for the €30) and you can't test the result without going for a ski.

When I bought the original Salomons I got the feeling that the boot heating process (the boot, not the liner) was more to impress the customer with "technology", because it was obvious to me, as an engineer, that the boot was not going to really change its shape unless it was way too small. There just wasn't enough pressure pushing it outwards. Heating up the liner ought to do something more useful.

Bicester is an all-day trip for me, and that is the general problem with the UK. There are almost no ski shops and the ones that do exist have a very small range of stuff. There is an obvious commercial incentive to flog you something which is nearly ok. When I started a few years ago I visited a "big" ski place somewhere near the M27 and when I was looking at boots the young chap bluntly told me that why should he spend 2 hours selling me £400 boots when he can sell me a £400 jacket in 5 minutes. The shops at ski resorts are often really huge and one would hope they also have the experience to do it right.

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Base your ski holiday round a new pair of boots. Solutions4feet are great but and all day round trip for a punch or grind several times can be a drama especially if you're in the Alps in your boots.
Find a reputable boot fitter and the boot fitter will be well known to plenty of snowheads and book your ski trip round that get fitted 1st day and go back for tweaks during the week.
I know good boot fitters in St Anton, Tignes, Val D'isere all of which are great ski resorts

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Peter Stevens, one thing for certain is that a decent boot-fitter (certainly out here in the Alps) will almost invariably provide pretty much unlimited tweaks and adjustments for free or very small charge as part of their service.

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@Peter Stevens, I will confess that I am rather enjoying your "fresh pair of eyes".

There are and have been loads of technical inventions to aid boot comfort, many or most of which are IMV proven to be useless.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

In the old days, in the army, a real man would get blisters and just keep going until all the skin came off and new harder skin formed.

Sounds like I should try that, under a new name Smile

It's interesting that of all the people here who have a ski business, nobody seems to know about which liners can be heated, etc.

After all it is free

@Peter Stevens, Being a member of the extremely funny shaped feet owners club, I've had foam injected liners for more that 30 years, which was the only real solution in those early days. Since then various alternative solutions have been produced, with wax and cork injected liners, heat moldable liners and most recently heat moldable boot shells. A custom fitted insole had always been a prerequisite.

But having only ever had foam injected liners, I can't understand how any of the other solutions can compete with a 100% custom fitted liner that is perfectly molded to your foot. My latest boots have the 'new' version of the Sidas Race Liners, which are both lighter and more flexible than before, while still fitting perfectly.

@Peter Stevens, I'm not aware of a boot liner that's currently on the market that cannot be heat moulded. Whereas there are relatively few boot shells that are heat mouldable. However all boot shells can, to a great or less extent, be stretched/punched in the key areas to accommodate differing foot sizes/shapes etc.

However, if a boot is too big then it's too big and there's very little that can be done about it, especially if you're after a performance fit.

Unfortunately the majority of ski boot retailers are sellers rather than fitters and it's getting pretty difficult to find good/expert fitters, and that includes in resort. In fact I'd go as far as saying that, contrary to what many would think, the general standard of service (for boots & skis) is a lot worse in resort than in the UK.

In the UK we are blessed with some true experts that offer experience + wide range shells sizes/shapes + high end biomechanical/podiatry knowledge + fully equipped workshops + fair prices etc. I know the people at Solutions4Feet, Rivington Alpine, Profeet and Backcountry UK and they all fall in to this category. Others in the UK that I don't know personally but that come recommended on this forum are Ski Bartlett, Sail & Ski, Lockwoods and Snowtrax. The staff in all of these stores would recommended that you went elsewhere if, in the unlikely event, that they didn't have the correct boot for you.

The Europe, where the number of retailers is huge compared to the UK there are still very few quality boot fitters. The ones I know are Sole and Sanglaard in Chamonix, The Boot Lab in Meribel/C1650, Jennwein in St.Anton and there's a guy in Val D and a guy in Tignes who's names escape me. I'm sure that there are more but the numberws are reducing as the owner managed shops get gobbled up by the chain stores etc. The quality of boot fitting in the chain stores, like thise in the UK, is basically down to who serves you so it could be very good or it could be a kid that's had a couple of hours training etc.

The difficulty for the beginner (and this applies to your other thread re ski reviews is that, with respect, you 'don't know what you don't know' so it's very difficult to differentiate between retailers. Most on this forum, including myself, are now skiing boots that are at least a size smaller than their first pair, and often two sizes smaller. And the majority of us don't live locally to one of the shops I've listed so we've all had to take a day out of our lives - but we all think that it's well worth it.

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@spyderjon, your knowledge is second to none but I suspect you under estimate the boot fitters in resorts. Its somewhat hard to believe that people living and working in ski resorts all their lives have inferior skills to UK based fitters. The best boot fitter I have experienced was an old guy in Val Thorens, and I have had boots fitted by both your Chamonix based fitters, who were also very good.

The main problem with any type of “performance” fit done in the UK is that you have no way to get tweaks, without paying locally, until you get home.

A good tip is to ask the local ski instructors/guides in resort where they get their boots fitted.

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I agree with Spyderjon, I worked in UK, NZ and US fitting boots and the general level outside some specialist fitters wasn't great. I replaced a lot of boots that had been fitted in a variety of places, you'll be unsurprised to hear not many for being too small. On the liner question, i worked with Sven Coomer when the Zipfits were getting to their current iteration in the mid 90's and the premise behind that was about a better liner that wasn't a foam injection based liner. I did loads of Conformable foam boots and depending on the skiier you would get variable results. Shell fit is main place to start as you would expect so having enough for a shell range to find the best fit for your foot anatomy is key.

snow reports

Your boot history sounds very similar to mine. First pair bought in bargain rail in resort, 2nd pair bought online, 3nd pair bought locally in UK and 4rd pair where fitted in resort. All 4 offered different solutions for the same foot. The 4th pair was surefoot in whistler luckily i believe he got a good fitting boot to start with but he tried to sell me new foam injected liners (ditch the manufacturers new liners), I believe he was on commission. In hindsight I would have saved a lot of money and hassle going to a "career" boot fitter like one of those who spyderjon mentioned.
Boot fitting is not a black magic, but honest good ones are few and far between!

Interesting... Can the wax injection type of boot liner be heat moulded even after it has had some wax injected?

I have never heard of foam injection. Does it still exist? Is this the expanding foam which comes in a two-pack package, gets mixed in the mixing nozzle and then goes off, having expanded like crazy? I have used it in various applications.

The first ski shop I ever went into, where I got the Salomon boots, said that racers gets plaster casts done so their feet are totally rigid. That seems impractical unless the cast is in two parts and the boot also opens up. That shop closed shortly afterwards, after being there for about 30 years.

You know it makes sense.

@BobinCH, my point is that the good ones in Europe are still few, especially when you consider the huge number of shops that there are. And I've heard endless horror stories from customers who've been on the receiving end of 'resort shop' customer service. I was in a chalet in Verbier a few years ago and part way through the week one of the ladies (not in my party) came and asked me if I could adjust her bindings for her new boots - which happened to be the same mondo size/shell length as mine - but her feet were 2/3 sizes smaller than mine - and her new boots had a 40mm shell gap! The retailer was a very well known shop. I took her back to the shop the next morning and met the 'fitter' who confirmed that the size was correct and told me I didn't know what I'm talking about. After 'kicking-off' we were eventually told to go back in the afternoon to meet the Manager was then admitted that the boots were $hit. He then dealt with the lady personally and did an excellent job over the next two hours (I stayed to watch) and she walked out with boots of a totally different make/model that were two sizes smaller!

And any sensible person getting boots in the UK would then do a few snowdome/dryslope lessons prior to any trip just in case any fettling needs doing.

Once you've had boots supplied/fitted by a quality fitted it's pretty easy to know you're own requirements and how they should feel but for a beginner it's a nightmare and a lot of the time they're at the mercy of gap year staff.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Tbh not sure what the material they where injecting so dont quote me on foam injected liners.

A snowHead

Mark and all his crew at Surefeet in Val disere are superb . They will not sell a boot unless they have one that works for you .

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I am sure mark and his crew in val'disere are superb but I felt the guy in Whistler was trying to upsell me very expensive new liners before I have even tried skiing in the new one supplied by nordica. I was there in resort for another two weeks, I can always go back and upgrade the liners if needed. When I said no to the new liners he was perfectly happy to fit boots with manufacturers liners...
I also got a talk about why they are unique, I just want boots that fit not a life story.

For what it's worth the boots fit good and no fancy liners needed.

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You don’t have to pay a fortune for good fitting boots. I bought a pair of Dalbello DS 120’s from Sail and Ski in Chester for £249. The boots have heat mouldable liners and shells; adjustable cuff spoilers, variable ramp angle and adjustable canting. They price matched an online price, knocking £70 off. They heat moulded both the liners and the shells, at no charge. They then adjusted the bindings on my skis, as the new boots were very slightly longer. They also moved two of the buckles on each boot. Again for no charge.

After having tried the boots for four hours in a snowdome, I took them back to get one tweaked slightly. No charge.

Granted, I don’t have “weird” shaped feet, but even so, good service and quality boots need not cost a fortune.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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While waiting to get my boots punched in Sanglard years ago, I overheard a conversation between Jules the fitter and a customer about some Amer race boot. The comment that ended the discussion was something along the lines of "I know how this boot fits because I was part of the design team".

Reality is that there is a huge gap between someone like that and some kid who is up from Marseilles working a season. I get the impression that many French people who ski to a high level are just using kit out of the box and are people for whom the stuff works out of the box. Boot fit just seems a bit more of a US/UK obsession.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I agree about it being difficult for those buying their first or even second pair of boots, as up to that point you've probably only even worn poorly fitting hire boots and have no idea what they *should* be like. Throw in a fitter who spends most of their day selling jackets, and the result is not likely to be good.

I was recently fitted for pair number three, at the aforementioned Jennewein in St Anton. Previously, my experience has been:
1. Some girly Head model that were a size too big. Custom footbeds added. Now sold.
2. Salomon X-Pro 100 moulded inner and outer, very similar to the OP. Custom footbeds from pair one trimmed to fit and still going. I reckon I've skied 100 days in them, so they're probably about halfway through their life and the liners have started to pack out a little. I don't think the fit is too bad though, I have a little movement but they are comfortable to wear all day. The size is correct.
3. Tecnica Zero-G Tour with moulded inners but very little tweaking. I bought these because I needed a touring boot rather than to rectify a fit problem, so I still use the Salomons for piste skiing. They are the same mondo size as the Salomons, which was reassuring. The fitter told me he was looking for ~75% good on the fit and he would fix the other 25% using whatever tricks he had. Having tried on a few other boots of torture for comparison, I'd say they were more like 90% good and I just needed a footbed and a little more space in the liners which were then heated, i.e. these boots are a really good shape for me.

I can see that if there isn't a shell that fits well out of the box, you could have a lot of problems. Some of the other boots I tried cut the blood supply off in minutes. Others fitted at the front but not on the heel. One was like putting my leg into a vice. Trying to solve all these issues must be a challenge. For some people, foam injection can be the best option.

I must sound like I have 'easy' feet, and I guess from a ski boot perspective I mostly do. But for my whole life outside of skiing, footwear has often been a problem so I never expected it to be good. I was the kid with the feet so wide the only shop that catered for me had just one pair of shoes and I had to have them for school. Trainers were okay, but most knee-high boots, assuming they were wide enough to get my feet in, wouldn't zip over my erm, muscular calves Embarassed

My square-shaped feet won't fit into dainty heels, though thankfully there is little call for such things in the Alps Toofy Grin

Don't rush a boot fitting. I went on a quiet day and was in there for about 5 hours, though we did have a lunch break. I've been back once to get the right liner remoulded. If I need anything else doing, I'll pop in after skiing St Anton. There is no charge for this, or the coffee, or the schnapps. I also got a 20% discount on the RRP of the boots and footbeds – quality boot fitting doesn't have to be really expensive.

After all it is free

Have never ever heard of wax injection, and solid plaster, well good luck flexing and actually skiing. Some orthotics can be made from a plaster cast of the foot, maybe that is what was being said.

There's clearly a lot of BS going around to people who really need proper advice, agree with Spyderjon and the statement, you don't know what you don't know. Same n many walks of life sadly.

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Wax injection: https://www.head.com/en-GB/sports/ski/technology/liquidfit/

The top end versions of these liners have a number of tubes coming out of them and IIRC cost about 200 quid.

The ones I got had just two injection points, at the back. They were ok but the heat-formed ones I now have are definitely better.

I have just done a bit of customisation on them myself, to relieve a pressure point on the top of my right foot, by putting the rubber pad on top of the foot, putting a sock over it, heating the liner in that spot with a hot air gun, quickly putting the foot into the liner, liner into the boot, and doing up the boot really tight. There is some conflicting info out there about the temperature. The shop I got them said they use +85C but I wasn't going to put the whole liner in an oven anyway.

Interesting that the wax fill ones can also be heat formed. The last shop told me they definitely cannot be (once any wax has gone in) so they got €195 out of me for the new ones Smile

Apart from that I was happy with that shop; the guy seemed clued up.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Thanks, not seen that, as I said, you don't know what you don't know Happy

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Help!!

What is the truth about boot linings (heating them up / injecting wax)?

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