 Poster: A snowHead
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Inspired by the beautiful photos above, I got a ruler out to check. F12s are a PITA for me to change (a strength issue, rather than a problem with the binding), but I think the delta with my alpine boots is the same as on my piste skis (standard alpine rail binding), certainly I've never noticed a difference. I measured the alpine boots and bindings to be 0mm, as I was expecting. I then tried the Zero-G in the leg-burning F12 and found it to be 4mm. Clearly this is enough to make a difference to me.
The F12 are on QKs, so I guess I could shim the toes. Or set them back again and always use the alpine boots.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Scarlet, 4mm with your short little pixie boots is a lot steeper than for guys with boots a good few sizes longe
The most you can shim an F12 toe is 2mm otherwise the rear of the frame won't engage in the heel base, plus you'd be twisting the frame.
What's the delta of you touring boots in your Alpinists?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| oui4ski wrote: |
| ........So the delta effectively measures changes to the boot forward lean relative to the bottom of the ski (rather than grinding a boot footbed or adding a heel lift which will change your foot sole angle) depending upon the binding and ski thickness where the bindings are attached?...... |
No, not quite. The relationship of the boot sole, the boot board and forward lean of the cuff does not change. Instead the boot as a complete unit is essentially tipped forward, ie the heel is lifted off the ground.
| oui4ski wrote: |
| ........I've unhelpfully changed boots, skis and bindings (Mk3 Mantra/Marker Duke/Alpine boots to M5/Shifts/Mk1 Tecnica Zero G Pro) in the last few years, but have never considered either delta or fore/aft binding position - time to play with some Screwfix shims to potentially reduce that backseat feeling! |
A Duke binding, depending upon the vintage, with an alpine sole is has 0-2mm of delta. If you'd have had your new touring boots in you Dukes you'd have had to drop the AFD down to its lowest position so the Duke delta would have then been 6mm.
Shifts with its AFD right down for deep touring sole has 8/9mm of delta but with an alpine soled boot fitted with the AFD up high to suit it'll have a delta of just 2mm. Now that you've changed kit you may or may not have an issue with the increased delta of your Shifts. Some people just aren't effected by it all. Or it could be that your alpine boot had an aggressively forward angled boot board and forward lean (like many race boots) compared to the gentler angles on your touring boots which effectively counter the increased delta between your Dukes and Shifts so you feel no difference. Or, you feel a bit backseat in your new set-up despite having pretty good form etc. If that's the case it's worth having a fettle.
And equipment fettling is fun 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 6-01-20 16:56; edited 1 time in total
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@zzz, shame you didn't read the somewhat eclectic "ski touring for wallys" thread. At the end of November I provided a very clear warning about the exact same failure you describe. Others supplied pictures of the affected bit. Evidently not an isolated event it seems.
@under a new name, did you put in a special order?!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@spyderjon, thanks -
| Quote: |
Or it could be that your alpine boot had an aggressively forward angled boot board and forward lean (like many race boots) compared to the gentler angles on your touring boots which effectively counter the increased delta between your Dukes and Shifts so you feel no difference. Or, you feel a bit backseat in your new set-up despite having pretty good form etc. If that's the case it's worth having a fettle.
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- I'm leaning towards some fettling when I'm reunited with my kit on Saturday (I just measured the old Duke delta at 5.5mm) ...
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@HammondR, no, but when I got two screws out there was defo glue on the ends and in the instructions they do say to loctite (similar) when moving around.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@spyderjon, ski thickness difference? Is the ski not the same thickness through the middle? Was 2mm what you were expecting on the Alpinist?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ski taper in thickness from the centre getting thinner towards the tips and tails. Some skis have a parallel section in the middle some the part of the ski were the toes and heels are mounted are the same thickness but some ski have an almost continuously curved topsheet so might have a different thickness under the toe from the heel. In some cases it's quite pronounced, especially on shorter adult skis as they still have to be thick enough in the mounting areas to accept the TUV DIN standard 9mm length drill bit but then taper quickly towards the tips'n'tails.
With separate flat mounted toes and heels the longer the sole length the greater the separation between the bindings the greater the chance of their being a difference in the thickness. Your F12's are a fixed length frame but the fore/aft positioning of that frame on the ski is determined by your sole length meaning that the ski thickness and therefore the delta might change slightly depending upon the mounting location. And if your F12 were the long frame instead of the small then the heel base would be mounted quite a bit further back towards the tail.
This means that underside of flat mounted bindings are horizontal at all as the toes are on slight downward inclination towards the ski tip but the heel are the opposite and are on a downward inclination towards the ski tail.
So if you really want to geek out then the exact delta of a make/model of binding as felt by the skier is not only dependant upon the make/model of boot but also the make/model/length of ski, the sole length the bindings are mounted for and the mounting position of the ski.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 6-01-20 22:10; edited 1 time in total
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| @spyderjon.....Was 2mm what you were expecting on the Alpinist? |
Yep. Spot on. Same as my Dynafit Mercury boots in them.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think that I'm getting it now - the effect of delta on boot forward lean angle could be calculated using inverse-sin(delta/sole length) - it's just a triangle with a hypotenuse of the sole length and the delta opposite the additional lean angle. So my old bindings with 5.5mm delta and a 316mm boot sole gave approximately 1 degree additional forward lean to my old alpine boots.
If my new bindings have a higher delta, then perhaps (non-intuitively) more forward lean could feel slightly more backseat (not sure about this theory!).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| oui4ski wrote: |
| I think that I'm getting it now - the effect of delta on boot forward lean angle could be calculated using inverse-sin(delta/sole length) - it's just a triangle with a hypotenuse of the sole length and the delta opposite the additional lean angle. So my old bindings with 5.5mm delta and a 316mm boot sole gave approximately 1 degree additional forward lean to my old alpine boots........ |
The terminology you're using is confusing. The 'forward lean' of a ski boot is an industry wide technical term used to describe how far forward the cuff of a ski boot leans when at rest and it is measured in degrees from the vertical. I'm pretty sure when you say "forward lean" in your opening sentence above you mean the forward tilt of the whole boot.
| oui4ski wrote: |
| If my new bindings have a higher delta, then perhaps ........the more forward tilt of the boot could feel slightly more backseat (not sure about this theory!). |
Possibly. If you're old boots had the same internal boot board angle and cuff forward lean as your new boots then yes you could end up being more backseat as you're new binding has a higher delta than the old one. However if you're new boots had less internal boot board angle and/or cuff forward lean as your old boots (ie they're more upright) then that could compensate for the additional delta on the new bindings.
Follow Dabbers lead:
| Dabber wrote: |
| spyderjon wrote: |
Measure from the lowest point of the sole at both the toe and heel, even if the lowest point at the toe is behind/below the contact point with the AFD.
You're essentially comparing the angle of the boot to when it's just standing on a flat/level surface like the ground or a table top - which would be zero delta. |
now I understand what the !@£$%^& we are talking about |
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Poster: A snowHead
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| oui4ski wrote: |
| I think that I'm getting it now - the effect of delta on boot forward lean angle could be calculated using inverse-sin(delta/sole length) - it's just a triangle with a hypotenuse of the sole length and the delta opposite the additional lean angle. So my old bindings with 5.5mm delta and a 316mm boot sole gave approximately 1 degree additional forward lean to my old alpine boots........ |
The terminology you're using is confusing. The 'forward lean' of a ski boot is an industry wide technical term used to describe how far forward the cuff of a ski boot leans when at rest and it is measured in degrees from the vertical. I'm pretty sure when you say "forward lean" in your opening sentence above you mean the forward tilt of the whole boot.
>> Yup - I'm referring to the forward tilt of the whole boot relative to the ground, but almost certainly not using the correct technical terms (or even in the right order)!
| oui4ski wrote: |
| If my new bindings have a higher delta, then perhaps ........the more forward tilt of the boot could feel slightly more backseat (not sure about this theory!). |
Possibly. If you're old boots had the same internal boot board angle and cuff forward lean as your new boots then yes you could end up being more backseat as you're new binding has a higher delta than the old one. However if you're new boots had less internal boot board angle and/or cuff forward lean as your old boots (ie they're more upright) then that could compensate for the additional delta on the new bindings.
Follow Dabbers lead:
| Dabber wrote: |
| spyderjon wrote: |
Measure from the lowest point of the sole at both the toe and heel, even if the lowest point at the toe is behind/below the contact point with the AFD.
You're essentially comparing the angle of the boot to when it's just standing on a flat/level surface like the ground or a table top - which would be zero delta. |
now I understand what the !@£$%^& we are talking about |
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>> I will indeed both measure this weekend and play with some shims whilst standing on a flat surface (boots and skis are in Switzerland but I'm not - so amateur dabbling will have to suffice until the end of the season).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Anyone here moved from the Technica Cochise 130 to the Zero G, or using both? Keen to understand if the fit is similar as I am currently using the Cochise as my everyday 'freeride' boot but considering getting the zero G as my lightweights.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| Anyone here moved from the Technica Cochise 130 to the Zero G, or using both? Keen to understand if the fit is similar as I am currently using the Cochise as my everyday 'freeride' boot but considering getting the zero G as my lightweights. |
mishmash has both of those boots so if he doesn't chime in here send him a PM.
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waiting for cheap 2nd hand ones for my light touring setup, from German site.. Puting SIDAS touring liner.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| Anyone here moved from the Technica Cochise 130 to the Zero G, or using both? Keen to understand if the fit is similar as I am currently using the Cochise as my everyday 'freeride' boot but considering getting the zero G as my lightweights. |
I have a pair of Cochise 120s (2012 model) and recently got a pair of Zero G Tour Scouts, same shell size based on doing a bit of research on TGR. Happy with the fit and feel like they will work fine for me with no extra modification. Only had one day touring so far (winter in Scotland seems to be on pause).
If anything I would say the Zero G has a little bit more volume in the toe and heel but otherwise fits me similar enough to be happy with.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| Anyone here moved from the Technica Cochise 130 to the Zero G, or using both? Keen to understand if the fit is similar as I am currently using the Cochise as my everyday 'freeride' boot but considering getting the zero G as my lightweights. |
mishmash has both of those boots so if he doesn't chime in here send him a PM. |
Correct .
Fit is very similar indeed, if not the same, despite the zero being 1-2 mm shorter at BSL due to the Vibram rocker sole. Zero needs a little more care and attention when strapping up than the full fat in order to get the full stiffness out of it and I have read on TGR that a lot of users go to intuition liners quite soon as the oem liner packs out ~20\30 days . Not a problem for me yet . I guess most of the fit difference will be down to the different and lighter liner. Caveat: I need work done on all my boots (foot size differences) so not sure how they will feel as a un modded option. I can only real tell the difference in Flex when I ski them back to back, otherwise the zeros are great . Also ~ 500gms lighter per boot and a really close BSL so not much faff to switch around. Range of motion in walk mode excellent, walk mode levers seem bomber. ( reference prior was Scott Superguide Carbon , supposedly 130 flex when it came out , walk mode repeatedly broke, generally poor).
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| mishmash wrote: |
| spyderjon wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| Anyone here moved from the Technica Cochise 130 to the Zero G, or using both? Keen to understand if the fit is similar as I am currently using the Cochise as my everyday 'freeride' boot but considering getting the zero G as my lightweights. |
mishmash has both of those boots so if he doesn't chime in here send him a PM. |
Correct .
Fit is very similar indeed, if not the same, despite the zero being 1-2 mm shorter at BSL due to the Vibram rocker sole. Zero needs a little more care and attention when strapping up than the full fat in order to get the full stiffness out of it and I have read on TGR that a lot of users go to intuition liners quite soon as the oem liner packs out ~20\30 days . Not a problem for me yet . I guess most of the fit difference will be down to the different and lighter liner. Caveat: I need work done on all my boots (foot size differences) so not sure how they will feel as a un modded option. I can only real tell the difference in Flex when I ski them back to back, otherwise the zeros are great . Also ~ 500gms lighter per boot and a really close BSL so not much faff to switch around. Range of motion in walk mode excellent, walk mode levers seem bomber. ( reference prior was Scott Superguide Carbon , supposedly 130 flex when it came out , walk mode repeatedly broke, generally poor). |
I put some old intuitions in and it made a big difference. The stock liners are much lighter/thinner and quickly got squishy in challenging conditions (this was on my 2nd day skiing them).
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I put some old intuitions in and it made a big difference. The stock liners are much lighter/thinner and quickly got squishy in challenging conditions (this was on my 2nd day skiing them).[/quote]
im finding the liners wishy washy. have to keep cranking the boots up as the day goes on. planning on changing at the end of season to zip fits or the like
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks this is good to know - I assume the factory liners are minimalist to reduce weight and as such are are the intuitions or other 3rd party liners much heavier? I have spent 13 days so far this season in the Cochise and already working my way down the buckles and hoping it is just bedding in and will stabilise.
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I think with boots like this there is a good case for going with intuitions quickly and keeping the OEM liners for days when you expect to be skinning a lot.
That's what I've done with my Dalbello Lupos. The (fairly thick, wrap) intuitions give a more performance fit and a bit of extra stiffness. The OEMs are a bit more cushy and give a bigger range of movement.
I can skin and ski in both but I definitely prefer the intuitions for downhill and somewhat prefer the OEMs uphill.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My stock liner weighed 213g without footbed. It’s super comfortable and great on the up but gets squishy on the down if you are working the boot hard. On the piste they were fine. There is a shin reinforcement that I haven’t tried yet.
My (very old) Intuition Tour Pros weigh 373g with a lot more bulk, significantly more support, very tight round the shins/calves (liners mounded for a freeride boot) - couldn’t close top 2 buckles further than the first 1/2 notch. Obviously not as comfy as the stock liners.
I plan to do as above and mainly use the intuitions for shorter training tours, keeping the stock liners for longer tours and the race I’ve got in May.
Even with the Intuitions I don’t see the Zero-G’s as a replacement for my Alpine Boots when full gas freeriding.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@BobinCH, Thanks - this is very helpful. I spoke to ProFeet in London today, who supplied my Cochise, and will go in to see them after half-term to get fitted for Zero-G and look at liner options for both.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| @BobinCH, Thanks - this is very helpful. I spoke to ProFeet in London today, who supplied my Cochise, and will go in to see them after half-term to get fitted for Zero-G and look at liner options for both. |
I would have thought you could use the same liner/footbed in both boots given they’re similar boots/lasts. My boots are quite different, I didnt rebake them and the fit was still good, if tight.
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You know it makes sense.
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@BobinCH, yes of course you are right and would also only need one footbed. Beers on me!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
My (very old) Intuition Tour Pros weigh 373g with a lot more bulk, significantly more support, very tight round the shins/calves (liners mounded for a freeride boot) - couldn’t close top 2 buckles further than the first 1/2 notch. Obviously not as comfy as the stock liners.
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That liner won't be available outside of Cham and a particular location at that. That's the Hybrid Pro Tour Tongue Liner, added plastic around the coller and 10mm high density foam, compared to 8mm Medium density offered by intuition worldwide. (Pro Tour)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ok thanks @CH2O, Appointment made with Sole Bootlab on Saturday for binding shim and probably new liners
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Ok thanks @CH2O, Appointment made with Sole Bootlab on Saturday for binding shim and probably new liners |
i do believe CH20 is the owner of Sole boot lab?? maybe im wrong.
I got mine from there last week. Seb was great, coukd have the craic with him, my 2 girls (5&3 y/o) took over the shop, staff were great with them
BobinCH do you find you're having to crank the top buckles as the day goes on or the terrain gets more sketchy?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Mother hucker, I find I have to crank the top buckles at the start of the day!
Popping back into Concept tomorrow for fettling.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Strange, I am still using the original liners after more than a year. Is it my fat calves?
Or perhaps it's just a case of getting out there and going skiing!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Ok thanks @CH2O, Appointment made with Sole Bootlab on Saturday for binding shim and probably new liners |
i do believe CH20 is the owner of Sole boot lab?? maybe im wrong.
I got mine from there last week. Seb was great, coukd have the craic with him, my 2 girls (5&3 y/o) took over the shop, staff were great with them
BobinCH do you find you're having to crank the top buckles as the day goes on or the terrain gets more sketchy? |
I believe you are correct 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| zzz wrote: |
Strange, I am still using the original liners after more than a year. Is it my fat calves?
Or perhaps it's just a case of getting out there and going skiing! |
Better technique than us 
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| Thanks this is good to know - I assume the factory liners are minimalist to reduce weight and as such are are the intuitions or other 3rd party liners much heavier? I have spent 13 days so far this season in the Cochise and already working my way down the buckles and hoping it is just bedding in and will stabilise. |
Profeet are great at doing on the go fettling and one of the reasons I like to use them . That and they are 5 mins away ! I’m toying with a booster strap for the Cochise in order to lock it down completely.
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| mishmash wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| Thanks this is good to know - I assume the factory liners are minimalist to reduce weight and as such are are the intuitions or other 3rd party liners much heavier? I have spent 13 days so far this season in the Cochise and already working my way down the buckles and hoping it is just bedding in and will stabilise. |
Profeet are great at doing on the go fettling and one of the reasons I like to use them . That and they are 5 mins away ! I’m toying with a booster strap for the Cochise in order to lock it down completely. |
Small world I also live 5 mins away and saw Fraser who fitted the Cochise. Am going to investigate upgrading the liner which I can then interchange with the Zero G when I get them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
BobinCH do you find you're having to crank the top buckles as the day goes on or the terrain gets more sketchy? |
I did on the stock liners. Not on the Intuitions.
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| mishmash wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| Thanks this is good to know - I assume the factory liners are minimalist to reduce weight and as such are are the intuitions or other 3rd party liners much heavier? I have spent 13 days so far this season in the Cochise and already working my way down the buckles and hoping it is just bedding in and will stabilise. |
Profeet are great at doing on the go fettling and one of the reasons I like to use them . That and they are 5 mins away ! I’m toying with a booster strap for the Cochise in order to lock it down completely. |
Ask him about the pro tour wrap which is the new one . I’m going through Vancouver at the end of feb and have a day layover and apparently it’s possible to get it done and moulded at Intution there.
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FAQ
