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Simon Butler - a victory.....

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
davidof wrote:
rjs wrote:
davidof wrote:
Here's the FIS results for SB

Those are Masters results, you can't use them to work out whether someone would pass the Eurotest.


? the only person talking about the Eurotest in this thread is you Puzzled

Why did you provide a link to race results then ?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
How many other people were stitched up but couldn’t afford to get justice through the courts?
An important question. The other side of that coin is how many UK instructors used the laws derived from the EU's freedom of movement principle to work across the EU, build careers, establish themselves and their families in a new European country, etc.

A right which has to be fought for in order to keep it, is better than having those rights stripped away from you. Unfortunately because of Brexit we have the worst of both worlds: the pain for some of having to fight to claim those rights, only for them to be torn from them just on the point of success.


And how many locals were p*ssed off by all that?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Gerry wrote:
And how many locals were p*ssed off by all that?
Relatively few, a minority. Proving that you can't please all the people, all the time.
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
rjs wrote:
davidof wrote:
rjs wrote:
davidof wrote:
Here's the FIS results for SB

Those are Masters results, you can't use them to work out whether someone would pass the Eurotest.


? the only person talking about the Eurotest in this thread is you Puzzled

Why did you provide a link to race results then ?


Just so that people can see that he actually does ski to a good level and is serious about his skiing as he travels all over the world to take part in masters competitions (also in context to the the Basi link where they discuss their "non competition" based system with the ENSA). In the other links I gave a couple of the French people were commenting that he probably couldn't ski. I wouldn't really expect a 56 year old bloke to pass the Eurotest but who knows? The judgement that Rob posted seems to imply that where a competence test is deemed necessary it has to take into account the person's age and has to be relevant - so maybe not the Eurotest in future.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 10-12-19 16:18; edited 2 times in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
For those interested in the judgement here it is, plus a Google translation:

French
Google-English


thanks Rob, a bit technical so I'll have to look at that in detail, later.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
So just as I suspected, it is complicated, this is another take on the decision, translated from French.

Quote:
It's quite complicated. The hearing took place on 4 April 2019 and the public rapporteur (magistrate responsible for reviewing the state of the law) had probably concluded that the Préfet's decision had been annulled. The decision is then reserved and the court often rules within 15 days to three weeks (in a court of law in which the public rapporteur does not sit).

There the decision came 7 months later ... December 5, 2019. Almost a record of delay of deliberation

In the meantime the European Commission has taken the position referred to by Tcsa by a regulation of 14 March 2019 (thus before the hearing of 4 April) published only on 4 June in the Union's OJ with entry into force 20 days after this publication
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0907

But the disputed decision (that of the Prefect to submit Butler to an aptitude test following his declaration of activity as a monitor in France) is canceled. The regulation of 14 March 2019 does not retroactively give effect to the date of the contested decision of February 2014 and can not therefore give it a legal basis.

But where it is super vicious is that the Court decides that its decision is not worth issuing the card and that it is up to the administration to rule again ... except that in doing so it seems to allow the administration to rule today in view of the regulation of March 2019 (published in June 2019) ... so reject the application Butler. The latter could then be validly rejected but have a compensatory remedy for fault of the administration which in 2014 unduly rejected his request making him lose a chance to register at the time before the change of text of March 2019. I think that this case is not over. Butler's lawyer will argue, I think in vain, that it is up to the administration to rule in light of the state of the law of 2014 without taking into account the regulation of March 2019 entered into force in June 2019.


this is something I mentioned in the previous judgement, that new legislation can supersede previous court decisions but the comment about M. Butler's victory being somewhat Pyrrhic is interesting.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think the new legislation is about the automatic recognition of qualifications from one member state in another, and is an additional path to recognition rather than replacing the existing (not specific to skiing) legislation for regulated professions which uses either an aptitude test or a period of adaption (at the choice of the applicant I believe) to obtain recognition in the case where one country's qualifications are substantially different. While the new one may mean an easier route for some fully qualified instructors I don't think it removes the rights that Simon has been using to argue his case.

I'm not a lawyer though!

My reading of the recent judgement does match yours though: they have told the prefect to think again, not said they must give him a carte pro immediately.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 12-12-19 16:02; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
kieranm wrote:
I think the new legislation is about the automatic recognition of qualifications from one member state in another, and is an additional path to recognition rather than replacing the existing (not specific to skiing) legislation for regulated professions which uses either an aptitude test or a period of adaption (at the choice of the applicant I believe) to obtain recognition in the case where one countries qualifications are substantially different. While the new one may mean an easier route for some fully qualified instructors I don't think it removes the rights that Simon has been using to argue his case.
That's also my understanding of the EU's Delegated Act. Throughout the MoU process (which led to the Delegated Act, after several years) it was always made clear that this was a way of regularising and making more efficient the process for recognising qualifications deemed equivalent for full rights of establishment in a host EU country. This did not replace the legislation stemming from 2005/36/EC.

Ditto for the caveat. Absolutely not a lawyer, not a WikiLawyer, not even an armchair one.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
kieranm wrote:


My reading of the recent judgement does match yours though


The quoted text was from a French lawyer but not someone I know. It is just an opinion of course.

I'm going to go through it this weekend myself and will see what the missus thinks.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
davidof wrote:
I'm going to go through it this weekend myself and will see what the missus thinks.
That would be very interesting, especially Mrs D's opinion.
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