Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Simon Butler - a victory.....

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RlaigKm7_-6v-omDrWKKy0IICD2S5RR4/view

Over to the qualified instructors to comment.....
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@chocksaway, Just in time for BREXIT Very Happy
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@chocksaway, there'll be a few noses out of joint today following that decision (both French and some British ones in the BASI hierarchy)....
snow conditions
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Does it mean L2/L3 Can now teach without restrictions in France?
snow conditions
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Will be interesting to see what was said in the judgement. Pleased it's concluded for him. There should be some consideration to compensation for him and his business.
ski holidays
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
A great and monumental ruling.

But for how long for UK instructors?
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mike Pow wrote:
A great and monumental ruling.

But for how long for UK instructors?
One or two seasons, I'd guess. Beyond that it will depend on arrangements for work permits or visas, particularly for short-term or seasonal workers who are paid relatively little.
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Great news. Now the guilty will have to come to Mr Butler on bended knee and lay his card at his feet.
latest report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Well done Simon for resilience in the face of relentless bureaucracy.
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
A bit extra here: https://www.snowindustrynews.com/articles/2019/december/british-ski-instructor-simon-butler-from-megeve-wins-in-criminal-court-and-in-appeal-in-administrative-court/
snow conditions
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Splendid. But how ironic for this to be on the eve of Brexit.
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Gerry, I suspect that the French will (and can) appeal to a higher court, and in the meantime keep Butler's Carte Pro in their pocket.
snow report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rungsp wrote:
@Gerry, I suspect that the French will (and can) appeal to a higher court, and in the meantime keep Butler's Carte Pro in their pocket.
I was in touch with Simon last week and he thought that this would be the final proceedings in his case, other than action regarding compensation. Although you'd not be surprised if it did go to to a further stage of the French judicial system.
ski holidays
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Alastair Pink wrote:
... (both French and some British ones in the BASI hierarchy)....
The BASI hierarchy's failure to support their own people appears then to be nothing more or less than what it is.
latest report
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ecureuil wrote:
A bit extra here: https://www.snowindustrynews.com/articles/2019/december/british-ski-instructor-simon-butler-from-megeve-wins-in-criminal-court-and-in-appeal-in-administrative-court/


The dire spelling and grammar makes me wonder if the content is accurate.
latest report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
A great and monumental ruling.

But for how long for UK instructors?
One or two seasons, I'd guess. Beyond that it will depend on arrangements for work permits or visas, particularly for short-term or seasonal workers who are paid relatively little.


From the discussions I've heard with the French authorities, if employers & employees are prepared to jump through a few additional hoops then no issue going forward even if the UK does crash out!

I'm not sure if the Ski Schools/Instructors are part of the same discussions, if not then they should be!
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hurtle wrote:
Splendid. But how ironic for this to be on the eve of Brexit.


Crazy it took an individual and his associated personal risk to uphold the supposed values of the EU. It could have all been different.
latest report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
marcellus wrote:
From the discussions I've heard with the French authorities, if employers & employees are prepared to jump through a few additional hoops then no issue going forward even if the UK does crash out!
Any chance you could share some more information about these discussions, here or by PM?
latest report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
Hurtle wrote:
Splendid. But how ironic for this to be on the eve of Brexit.


Crazy it took an individual and his associated personal risk to uphold the supposed values of the EU. It could have all been different.


Well, there you go, another part of the Great Europe ‘Union’ Lie exposed.
snow report
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:

marcellus wrote:
From the discussions I've heard with the French authorities, if employers & employees are prepared to jump through a few additional hoops then no issue going forward even if the UK does crash out!
Any chance you could share some more information about these discussions, here or by PM?




+1 pleeeassse?
latest report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Gerry wrote:
Well, there you go, another part of the Great Europe ‘Union’ Lie exposed.
Exposed? This has been discussed on snowHeads on and off for years. Hardly an exposé that France (and other EU countries) have not been properly administrating their laws as they should. Of course, the UK leaving simply means that those laws no longer provide employment rights to UK citizens, even if the French are finally going to have to start applying them as they should rolling eyes
snow conditions
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
BASI should have taken this case on his behalf years ago instead of feathering their own nests while treating him shamefully.
latest report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Well, there you go, another part of the Great Europe ‘Union’ Lie exposed.
Exposed? This has been discussed on snowHeads on and off for years. Hardly an exposé that France (and other EU countries) have not been properly administrating their laws as they should. Of course, the UK leaving simply means that those laws no longer provide employment rights to UK citizens, even if the French are finally going to have to start applying them as they should rolling eyes


You know my position on this as I’ve explained it to you often enough and you were even gracious enough to say you respected it.
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
gilo wrote:
BASI should have taken this case on his behalf years ago instead of feathering their own nests while treating him shamefully.


Yes that is exactly right. The BASI membership should now stand up and be counted.
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Gerry wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Well, there you go, another part of the Great Europe ‘Union’ Lie exposed.
Exposed? This has been discussed on snowHeads on and off for years. Hardly an exposé that France (and other EU countries) have not been properly administrating their laws as they should. Of course, the UK leaving simply means that those laws no longer provide employment rights to UK citizens, even if the French are finally going to have to start applying them as they should rolling eyes


You know my position on this as I’ve explained it to you often enough and you were even gracious enough to say you respected it.
Sure, and I said respect what you have said in the sense that it's your honestly held opinion. I think it's wrong, of course, and for seasonal workers who are UK citizens Brexit is nothing but bad news, potentially career ending. Opting out of a system of employment rights, no matter how imperfectly functional it is, doesn't give you more rights, it gives your fewer rights.
snow report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
...
it gives your fewer rights...


Yebbut EU "exposed", innit Laughing
ski holidays
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
...
in the sense that it's your honestly held opinion...


Up the 'foreign' workers, innit Laughing
ski holidays
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
AL9000 wrote:
Quote:
...
it gives your fewer rights...


Yebbut EU "exposed", innit Laughing
Puzzled
latest report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
this may be of interest to understand where BASI are currently

https://blog.basi.org.uk/basi-ensa-exchange/
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar wrote:
Will be interesting to see what was said in the judgement. Pleased it's concluded for him. There should be some consideration to compensation for him and his business.


Yes the issue of compensation will be an interesting one. There can be no doubt that Simon's business in France has been adversely affected by the actions taken against him (not to mention the fact that I believe he was arrested at least once while instructing and spent a night in a Police jail as a result?).
snow report
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The French press are normally very quick to print news when SB is found guilty by the courts but are surprisingly quiet about this result but it is quite fun to look back at the comments in this Figaro piece from 2014

https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2014/03/03/01016-20140303ARTFIG00317--megeve-haro-sur-le-prof-de-ski-anglais.php

Google only translates the first few comments

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lefigaro.fr%2Factualite-france%2F2014%2F03%2F03%2F01016-20140303ARTFIG00317--megeve-haro-sur-le-prof-de-ski-anglais.php

ok Figaro readers are probably more "liberal" than the average in France.

Here's the FIS results for SB

https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/athlete-biography.html?sectorcode=ma&competitorid=184953&type=result
ski holidays
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
davidof wrote:
Here's the FIS results for SB

Those are Masters results, you can't use them to work out whether someone would pass the Eurotest.
snow conditions
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Does this ruling mean that Mark Warner (and others) will be able to bring back their on piste leading service.

Could it also mean that if SCGB make level 2 a pre entry requirement to their training program, leaders could be back in resorts leading happy members on the snow.
snow conditions
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Gerry wrote:
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
Hurtle wrote:
Splendid. But how ironic for this to be on the eve of Brexit.


Crazy it took an individual and his associated personal risk to uphold the supposed values of the EU. It could have all been different.


Well, there you go, another part of the Great Europe ‘Union’ Lie exposed.


He won, so it wasn't a lie. If it was, he would have lost. Confused
ski holidays
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rjs wrote:
davidof wrote:
Here's the FIS results for SB

Those are Masters results, you can't use them to work out whether someone would pass the Eurotest.


? the only person talking about the Eurotest in this thread is you Puzzled
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
feshiebridge wrote:
Does this ruling mean that Mark Warner (and others) will be able to bring back their on piste leading service.

Could it also mean that if SCGB make level 2 a pre entry requirement to their training program, leaders could be back in resorts leading happy members on the snow.


I'm reading the judgement now and, unsurprisingly, it relates specifically to Simon (who is in an unusual position with regard to his dispute with BASI regarding the level of qualification). The extent to which the judgement sets precedents for (a) other people in Simon's position (about 18 I believe), and (b) instructors with lower level qualifications might well require further testing in court.
snow report
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
For those interested in the judgement here it is, plus a Google translation:

French
Google-English
ski holidays
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Mosha Marc wrote:
Gerry wrote:
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
Hurtle wrote:
Splendid. But how ironic for this to be on the eve of Brexit.


Crazy it took an individual and his associated personal risk to uphold the supposed values of the EU. It could have all been different.


Well, there you go, another part of the Great Europe ‘Union’ Lie exposed.


He won, so it wasn't a lie. If it was, he would have lost. Confused


How many other people were stitched up but couldn’t afford to get justice through the courts?
latest report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Gerry wrote:
How many other people were stitched up but couldn’t afford to get justice through the courts?
An important question. The other side of that coin is how many UK instructors used the laws derived from the EU's freedom of movement principle to work across the EU, build careers, establish themselves and their families in a new European country, etc.

A right which has to be fought for in order to keep it, is better than having those rights stripped away from you. Unfortunately because of Brexit we have the worst of both worlds: the pain for some of having to fight to claim those rights, only for them to be torn from them just on the point of success.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I'm not absolutely sure whether the Butler case actually does give rights to others (as would case law in the High and Supreme courts here). Googling around, French jurisprudence seems not quite so clear cut. Can anyone knowledgeable in French law clarify?
snow report



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy