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Winter vs all season vs summer tyres

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm sat waiting for some new all seasin tyres on the car & reading an auto Express tyre test.
Put very breifly
Winter snow braking 101.8%
Winter snow traction 101.3%

Best all season snow braking 98.5%
Best all season snow traction 100%

Worst all season snow braking 91.8%
Worst all sesson snow traction 90.8%

Summer snow braking 39.6%
Summer snow traction 34.9%

Whilst all season are not quite as good as winter, compared to summer, there is no real difference. There were a lot of other results but life is too short to list them all.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Do all season work as good as summer in hot temps?

And is there an official Euro designation for all season? As opposed to the 3-peak snowflake?

Keeping an eye out to change my tyres and I need them for 4-40C, heavy rain or hot tarmac, apart from when I drive to the ski hill one week a year.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Michelin cross climate fit and forget
Simples
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Out of curiosity % of what?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I've had "all season" Mitchellin Lattitude HP on my car for nearly 4 years and 33K miles.
They wear good, handle well, run quite
But they dont have the important "Peaky Symbol" on the sidewall, Sad
so they are not "Legal Winter Tyres" Twisted Evil

Mitchellin do make a
"There is now a Mitchelin CrossClimate Plus" Smile
These sound brilliant ... if you are allowed to use them on your car.
(I can't as they are not "N0" rated) Confused

I don't have much reason to drive to the alps these days and I'd probably chance my arm and use The Mitchellin Latitude Tours.
I'm going to replace all four of them with the same stuff next time as these tyres work well for me in the UK.

I had a word with the guy who knows everything about tyres at our local tyre shop, and he explained to me the "N0" rating was for "high sideways shear" ????
I suppose its for "Tokyo Drift" type driving.

I cant see me doing that.
What sort of car is it?
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johnE wrote:
Out of curiosity % of what?

They use a particular tyre, maybe last years winner as a benchmark.
I didn't list wet grip & aquaplaning results but the summer tyre came out better which is not what I'd found in experience, I found the Goodyear vectors much more resistant to aquaplaning than summer tyres.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
snowornever wrote:
Michelin cross climate fit and forget
Simples


That's what looked good to me,
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
My simple reading of a load of reviews: all season fine for UK, but winter tyres best for the alps.
(Read reviews until brain spun dizzy)
So I've got Continental wintercontact 850s.
Other winter tyres are available . . .
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Quote:

I didn't list wet grip & aquaplaning results but the summer tyre came out better which is not what I'd found in experience, I found the Goodyear vectors much more resistant to aquaplaning than summer tyres.

I've been driving almost 50 years and have aquaplaned only once, over 30 years ago. It was on ordinary all season tyres in summer. I have to say I have never fitted specialist summer or winter tyres
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
By coincidence, this popped up in my YouTube timeline this morning.


http://youtube.com/v/bKtnczk8Mxk
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
We have Michelin cross Climate Plus on our XTrail, not had any issues in winter or summer with them.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DrLawn wrote:
I've had "all season" Mitchellin Lattitude HP on my car for nearly 4 years and 33K miles.
They wear good, handle well, run quite
But they dont have the important "Peaky Symbol" on the sidewall, Sad
so they are not "Legal Winter Tyres" Twisted Evil

Mitchellin do make a
"There is now a Mitchelin CrossClimate Plus" Smile
These sound brilliant ... if you are allowed to use them on your car.
(I can't as they are not "N0" rated) Confused

I don't have much reason to drive to the alps these days and I'd probably chance my arm and use The Mitchellin Latitude Tours.
I'm going to replace all four of them with the same stuff next time as these tyres work well for me in the UK.

I had a word with the guy who knows everything about tyres at our local tyre shop, and he explained to me the "N0" rating was for "high sideways shear" ????
I suppose its for "Tokyo Drift" type driving.

I cant see me doing that.
What sort of car is it?


N rated tyres are for Porsche, like MO are for Mercedes. Supposedly they have been optimised for that type of car (and the style of driving that goes with it). Constant arguments on Porsche forums about whether they are worth sticking to. In short, if your car is still under original manufacturer warranty, you will probably have to have them. Otherwise, likely it is only Lewis Hamilton who will be able to tell the difference between N and non-N rated.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Orange200 wrote:
Do all season work as good as summer in hot temps?


According to various comments I've read under a couple of those videos - yes, pretty much.

I guess that's my next tyres sorted then.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Found
this video which gives a great comparison between winter tyres and summer tyres on a 4wd, quite an eye opener.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
As an old ski buddy of mine used to say ...
"In a 4 wheel drive .. you can get really stuck!"
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The slipperiest snow is the new stuff, when its been down just a few minutes.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DrLawn wrote:
The slipperiest snow is the new stuff, when its been down just a few minutes.


?
You mean new snow is more slippery than when it gets packed down, and refrozen into a hard icy layer? I've not noticed that.
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Decent all weather is better than crap summer. Eh Michelin crossclimate is far better than Hancook summer in summer. Tested by me.

Same form r decent all weather Vs crap winter.

Decent winter is better by about 20% over decent all weather in snow. In normal winter driving eg cold roads all weather is better than winter.

Eh crossclimate Vs continental T860 or Goodyear eagle winter. Only difference is the response to steering.

I've now gone Michelin crossclimate all year rather than good winter+good summer.

Then buy a set of decent chains for the slippery stuff. I'm getting the Thule konig C something. The ones you stand on the bar to tighten.
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@LaForet, that bit of powerpointery has stood you in good stead hasn't it wink
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I had some uniroyal Rainsports on a VW Touran some years ago and they were amazing in the snow, gripped like a sloth on a eucalyptus tree.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have winters on my Toyota HiLux (french registered) and for first time, all-seasons on my Range Rover (our UK car). I'm looking forward to seeing how the all-seasons cope when I'm over in a couple of weeks. I'm think there will be quite a noticeable difference - but that's my gut feel, not long to find out snowHead snowHead snowHead
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:

gripped like a sloth on a eucalyptus tree.

Interesting concept. Are sloths (from south america) ever likely to encounter eucalyptus trees (from australasia)
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johnE wrote:
Quote:

gripped like a sloth on a eucalyptus tree.

Interesting concept. Are sloths (from south america) ever likely to encounter eucalyptus trees (from australasia)

Thats why they hang onto them Madeye-Smiley
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
johnE wrote:
Quote:

gripped like a sloth on a eucalyptus tree.

Interesting concept. Are sloths (from south america) ever likely to encounter eucalyptus trees (from australasia)


oops guilty as charged I meant a koala, they are all bears to me
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Wylie66, a koala is not a bear. Ask any SH, I should know Happy
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
under a new name wrote:
@LaForet, that bit of powerpointery has stood you in good stead hasn't it wink


I don’t think it’s a useful depiction, because the x-axis presents a false continuum. Heavy rain and standing water can occur at both warm and cold temperatures. In the UK it’s as likely at 14c as it is at 4c. So the “gap” (that is surely the intended point of the visual) might not be reflective of reality.

If I were going to have a crack at this I’d put temperatures on the x-axis, precipitation on the y-axis and then plot the tyre types and their relative performance at key intersections. Someone must have done this already..?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
New tyre test:


http://youtube.com/v/bKtnczk8Mxk

tl;dr

Summer tyres perform rather badly < 7°C in damp conditions.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Ok guys, i am trying to understand why there is so much fuzz about these tire discussions. When i need to beske to not hit something, i want to have the best tire possible, because they are the only contact i have with the ground, and can be the difference between life and death. I Think that winters prove to be the in cold and snow, and det conditons when also cold. Look at it this way: You buy two sets of tires, and you pay twice the amount, but you also drive on them twice the amount of time, since you use each set for half the year - so it balances it self out:-) so why not have they best tire for the time of year om your car?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DanishRider wrote:
Ok guys, i am trying to understand why there is so much fuzz about these tire discussions. When i need to beske to not hit something, i want to have the best tire possible, because they are the only contact i have with the ground, and can be the difference between life and death. I Think that winters prove to be the in cold and snow, and det conditons when also cold. Look at it this way: You buy two sets of tires, and you pay twice the amount, but you also drive on them twice the amount of time, since you ise reach set for half the year - so it balances it self out


The point is that, whatever tyre you buy/use, it will, at some point be a compromise how, where and whatever you drive. Most people on this forum, by its very subject of skiing will be moderately affluent but many of us ski because we love it and spend all of our savings, pension contributions, childrens university fees etc on skiing and need to count every penny Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
switching tires on same rims cost money. Getting another set of rims also cost money. Keeping set of tires takes up space, problem, if you don't have a garage. A good set of tires will last you 3-4 winters and 3-4 summers, on average with moderate mileage. Not everyone is keeping same car for that long.

Having a good all seasons is cheaper and maybe even safer, because you are never caught unprepared by cold morning temps at an unexpected time of the year. For someone with a grocery getter, not a driving machine, it makes a perfect sense to rock all seasons all year long.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
IanTr wrote:
I don’t think it’s a useful depiction, because the x-axis presents a false continuum. If I were going to have a crack at this


My hope was that it helps the discussion, not that it was a perfect representation. Which is impossible, because there are too may variables to represent in 2 dimensions. By all means go ahead and have a go yourself - I think you'll find that there's no perfect fit.

There are research papers on this but it's hard to summarise: for example, research on drainage grooves shows the best water removal comes not with straight grooves, as you'd think, but when they're around 20° from the direction of travel. Tread compound chemistry, variation in compounds across the tread belts; ratio of drainage grooves to solid tread; % of tread with sipes etc. etc. And then individual brands vary: some all-seasons are winter-biased, some winters are performance-biased etc. etc. Then introduce the recommended difference in aspect ratio and tyre width between summers and winters. It's all far too complex to represent in one diagram.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
kosmoz wrote:
switching tires on same rims cost money. Getting another set of rims also cost money. Keeping set of tires takes up space, problem, if you don't have a garage. A good set of tires will last you 3-4 winters and 3-4 summers, on average with moderate mileage. Not everyone is keeping same car for that long.

Having a good all seasons is cheaper and maybe even safer, because you are never caught unprepared by cold morning temps at an unexpected time of the year. For someone with a grocery getter, not a driving machine, it makes a perfect sense to rock all seasons all year long.


Mine last a max of two seasons, but i also drive around 60K km a year - But anyway: I prefer the tire for the season i am in, and the only cost is new rims. I can live with that due to safety Happy
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If you are driving through France or Germany when it is wintery its mandatory and in Austria if its winter Snow tyres..and snow tyres HAVE to have the snowflake to make tham legal...I use mine all year round

https://www.uniroyal-tyres.com/car/tyre-guide/winter-care/winter-tyres-mandatory
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last year I fitted Michelin Cross Climate to our Land Rover Discovery and they are great tyres. the have the peaks symbol on them which the police seemed happy with. Nice and quiet on the auto route and give lots of confidence in the wet and sludge on there especially at night when I was driving down. On the way up the hill and in the car parks and some of the uncleared smaller roads, I couldnt fault them but kept to a sensible speed. The key bit seems to be that they pick up snow that then sticks to to other snow and they are softer at a lower temperature than summer tyres so the tread moves more. My partner had them on an ALfa Guilietta and managed 40k miles on them. Sadly I cant get them on the new wheel size for my current car so its mud and snow tyres and chains in the boot
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LaForet wrote:
IanTr wrote:
I don’t think it’s a useful depiction, because the x-axis presents a false continuum. If I were going to have a crack at this


My hope was that it helps the discussion, not that it was a perfect representation. Which is impossible, because there are too may variables to represent in 2 dimensions. By all means go ahead and have a go yourself - I think you'll find that there's no perfect fit.

There are research papers on this but it's hard to summarise: for example, research on drainage grooves shows the best water removal comes not with straight grooves, as you'd think, but when they're around 20° from the direction of travel. Tread compound chemistry, variation in compounds across the tread belts; ratio of drainage grooves to solid tread; % of tread with sipes etc. etc. And then individual brands vary: some all-seasons are winter-biased, some winters are performance-biased etc. etc. Then introduce the recommended difference in aspect ratio and tyre width between summers and winters. It's all far too complex to represent in one diagram.


I think it's a reasonable illustration, gets the jist of subject across in fairly simple terms. For purposes of discussion level here it's OK.
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