When do children start needing more than a week to go up a level?

A snowHead

Currently in resort for my 7 year olds third ski week.

Aged 6 he got the Ourson, aged 7 he got the 1st star (in March) and now he’s in the 2nd star class this week. I’ve obviously made noises to him about not necessarily getting the badge and as it gets harder it’ll take more than 1 week for each badge but when does this actually start to happen usually?

He passed the 1st star badge in March with “full marks” so it’s not like he just scraped through, therefore Im expecting him to get the 2nd star this week. But then will 3rd star next year maybe take longer?

I just want to know when to prepare him in earnest for not necessarily getting the badge at the end of the week. Because these things matter to 7 year olds!!

Any personal experience?

Merry Xmas!

A snowHead

@Stinkpickle, before abandoning France for Austria my kids all went up a level each year. We moved on after my eldest reached 3 etoiles. When my middle child was 6 or 7 and doing deux etolies, he passed but the instructor said it was borderline.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I can't answer your question in skiing terms but when I was a sailing instructor we used to have the same.

The issue you/your son has is that at each level the student needs to continually demonstrate that they can do everything from all the previous levels as well as everything in this level.

Without practicing for the other 51 weeks of the year most students will take 2/3days to get back to the level they were at the last time they went skiing/sailing, then they have to learn the new skills and be able to demonstrate them continually.

Worth having the discussion with your son now about learning is a progression and not tick box and if you want him to seriously progress practice during the rest of the year.

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Does it matter? If your child enjoys skiing, then why pressure to progress? It's not a race.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@queenie pretty please, +1. Enjoying your skiing must be the thing. Some of the best tuition our kids had was in Norway where the instructor took the group around the whole (albeit small) mountain, greens, blues, reds and blacks, getting them to do different things on each type of piste. And not a badge in sight

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Our son made it from ourson to gold star in 5 weeks (age 6 to 11), but he was all in on skiing, and was able to a level one of those weeks (think he went from 2 stars to bronze). Our daughter made it from ourson to bronze in those years (age 4 to 9). So one week per level.

The first two years we did full day ESF lessons, the last three just in the mornings, and the final year (2017) we shelled out for private lessons. which for two kids @ 2 hrs per day is about the same as group lessons. That really helped them pass the bronze/gold levels as the test is pretty stringent and the instructor we had saw it as a point of pride to get them through the test.

We told the kids that we expected them to be confident, competent skiers before we let them off on their own or ski with me all day long. So while it's not a race, I admit that I pushed them a bit to take lessons, figuring that it would pay off in the future. No way was I going to try to teach them anything.

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I was struggling to keep up with my son after about 4 days on skis. He was waiting at the bottom of a steep, cut-up red for me. No formal lessons, just a few pointers from his mum and me.

I didn't dare follow him when he entered a proper mogul field towards the end of the first week and managed to stay upright!

What it is to be 9yo, fearless, agile and on 120cm skis!! snowHead

After all it is free

@luigi, Indeed!

I should add that one benefit of going through the ESF system from ourson to gold (or any other national system) is that it instills a certain logical progression, whereas piecemeal lessons (like I had as a kid) allow lots of bad/lazy habits that then take a long time to get rid of as an adult.

My son is now 13 and is technically a much better skier than I am, and he looks a lot better too, even though he has a total of about 8.5 weeks on skis. But about half of that time was spent in lessons.

Thank you very much everyone (except @dobby and @ queenie pretty please who didn’t bother to read the question. I was quite clear about why I was asking)

I sense that it also depends on the child and how well they take instruction. Great responses thanks and merry Xmas all!

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@queenie pretty please, @dobby, +1

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My granddaughters were both v keen on the badges but my daughter and son in law are both sailing instructors with experience of explaining why you can't get a tick in the "sailing a triangular course" box if you can't sail upwind and made the appropriate noises. On one week the older girl was not getting it right. She was told the badge wasn't important but her Dad (who is also a PE teacher) offered to do some drills with her between lessons IF she wanted. She chose the drills and he got her shifting weight more decisively and she got the badge. Kids do put huge emphasis on the badges and she'd have been very upset if she'd not got it, despite deliberate parental downplaying of the importance.

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Did he skip Floccon?

Currently in Norway. Our 9 year old is in the advanced group (10 -15 yrs) and they have been all over the mountain with little 'games' being played. Eyes closed today guiding each other etc. Tomorrow they are off to the park. It's not about badges it's about skiing and agree with dobby1 some of best instruction he has had. Equally good and similar system in Finland. I am not a fan of tick box in any form of learning. I had a 3 hour lesson today to work on confidence on steeps, again excellent instruction.

You know it makes sense.

@Stinkpickle, if you’re worried about preparing for/averting disappointment then in my experience it’s so unpredictable that you might as well start now!

My son skipped straight to 2* on his first trip, then 3* after another week, then took 2 weeks to get bronze, then gold in a week (he was 6 by this point). My daughter took several weeks to get to 1* (albeit she was 3yrs old), then 2-3 each to 2* and 3* then bronze took a week and gold another week (I.e. whereas most find the early badges fast and the later ones slow, she was the opposite). I’ve seen other kids skip levels then take weeks to get the next one etc. I don’t think it’s forecastable.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Also depends on the child and the conditions they experience when in resort. Bit I'd add another +1 to what has been said above, so long as they are enjoying themselves, does it really matter that much.

A snowHead

My two currently 10 and 11 both got gold last year in 6 Years of lessons (5 two hour private lessons each year then just skiing with us). Only 3 years of ESF though which I thing got them a 2*, a bronze and then a gold.

A snowHead

From our family experience it's the step up to bronze and gold where there's the most difficulty (and a fairly common disdain of the esf) because of a timed slalom in which you have to complete the course within an allotted time for your grade. But this also depends on the resort and the instructors who set the course. Up until 3eme étoile it's perfectly fine, and after gold you can choose between the more specialised courses aimed at teenagers.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Son got a badge a week until the last two. Then the last two he got at the end of the season when he was 6&7, though the instructor could have given them too him a lot earlier, but we agreed it would be an appropriate way to finish the season. Each season he had 5 weeks of private lessons with his sister for 2 hours a day.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I have no idea what badges my kids got, but they had a great time!

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One problem is that in UK primary schools kids seem to get huge praise for everything, all the time and it undermines their resilience.

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After all it is free

Badges give you great bragging rights!

In the ESF system Enfants du Pays take 1 season to go up a level.
This is not 6 days of morning lessons, but 18 weeks of 7.5 hours (Sat, Sun Wed PM) plus approx 30 hours spread across the holidays.
...and sometimes they do not go up.

The ESF where Mrs works takes the levels (and also Fleche) pretty seriously, and every Friday they have parents coming in to disagree with the instructors assessment of what has been assessed and awarded.

We would not be good parents if we did not wan't the best for our children. It's just everybody's idea of what is best is not the same.

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Opted out of all this. Moving from one resort to another and from esf to independent ski school got more and more of a waste of time, with group ability being so mixed and variable. It was just using ski school as child care in the end. So this year we will he spending our holiday skiing with the kids. Looking forward to it, they are quite a nice bunch. (Unless it’s a powder day, no friends on a powder day snowHead

)

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

We were using ESF one year and that particular one had inbetween badges which happened to work quite well for our eldest as he didn't quite make the next level - he was about 5 or 6 at the time.

Another year, or possibly the 2nd week that same season, our 2 had private lessons and we bought them a souvenir resort badge that we gave them at the end of the week.

It's not all about levels and badges but enjoyment, gaining skills and mountain safety awareness.

Aged just 10 and 8 now they have a selection of ski badges between them from Piou Piou to Bronze from a selection of schools for both skiing and snowboarding and don't seem to have been scarred from not getting a badge a week.

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Ours did the first four weeks in ski school. They took to it quite quickly and ended up getting bored with the lack of mileage, plus the youngest wasn't enjoying being stuck in lessons when she wanted a family holiday. As previously said, the teaching quality was variable and ended up being little more than childcare.

Much happier all round since they ski with us now. Earlier starts, later finishes and more relaxed days with more skiing. I would look at lessons again in the future but probably only if they wanted to sort out something specific.

I would say one thing to the OP, which is that our children are bilingual and definitely "get" the French culture, which to American or British can seem a bit...old school, so they were fine with going through ESF, and a few tears along the way and grumpy teachers pretty much mirrored their primary school experience here. Whereas, at least in the U.S., ski instructors tend to be a little more gentle and forgiving.

The daughter of one of our Canadian friends here in France had such a horrible ESF experience that she basically quit skiing.

The ESF pluses, which have been laid out in innumerable threads, are that it's cheap, safe, well organized and methodical, and can serve as an excellent baby-sitting service. The minuses should be self evident to any non-French person. They only lost our daughter once in six years of lessons!

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@patrick!, Has it spot on, and to summarise his excellent points:
Ski School is NOT about learning to ski - it's about everything else.

They are about bonding with the other people in the class, getting to know the instructor and vice versa, a collective sense of camaraderie, the shared experience, laughing together at being outside your comfort zone, learning how to ski safely as a group, looking out for one another, learning piste & park etiquette, maybe learning a few words in a different language, and mostly having fun. ... If you can improve your skiing a bit too, then that's a bonus.

The OP raises a good point that is not really about ski school or even about skiing.

It's how we introduce real world concepts to our children.
Understanding that in everything you do, there will be people who are better than you, and some who are worse.
Learning to deal with failure and disappointment, realising that this is part of life, it's not the end of the world, you can harness the power of it in positive ways.

Ski school happens to be a very good microcosm, for life lessons.
There'll be things you're good at, things with which you struggle, people you understand, people you don't, people you get along with, people you won't. You need to pay attention, or you'll get left behind, you learn to try and focus on what it important and what isn't. You'll learn to look after yourself without impinging upon the enjoyment of others. It's about finding your place and self understanding.

So if the OP can see any of this in their 7 year old, then that's gotta be a good thing ?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Bergmeister, I was just making the point that it is perhaps a good thing to push the enjoyment angle...

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The sooner they learn that life can smack a spanner in your face without any warning the better...
Actually with our kids it happened at different ages (not getting a medal) the eldest it was gold and our friends boy got it that week, she was not a happy bunny, but got over it pretty quickly. The younger one was always happy if she gotta medal even if it was the same as the year before, she is a far more stylish and accomplished skier than her sister now age 21

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@Bergmeister, Just people giving an opinion: Do you not approve?

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@esaw1, They clearly didn't read or understand the OP

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@leggyblonde, I did read and understand the OP. I was just expressing an opinion that it is as important to enjoy your skiing as it is to pass badges. Those 2 aren’t exclusive of course especially if you’re a younger skier. I understood that the badge that can be quite difficult to pass is the one with the timed race. Don’t know what level that is though

After all it is free

I think it can be good to have something to aim for. Dinghy sailing has distinct levels, why shouldn't skiing?

To answer the OP, I have no experience of my kids missing out on ESF badges, but I've tried to maximise their chances out of ski season:

Keep them fit, rollerblading, mountain biking, even rock climbing.

@dobby, gold star. At bronze star level, they have to complete the course with something along the lines of, "control of good technique". At gold star level, the requirement is to finish the course within a set time.

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@mgrolf, that’s the one. Thx

Help!!

When do children start needing more than a week to go up a level?

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