 Poster: A snowHead
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I just read a great article over on WildSnow - Titled as per the topic:
"Airbag or Beacon - Which Would you Choose?"
https://www.wildsnow.com/27042/avalanche-airbag-vs-beacon/
The article goes as follows:
Brief summary of the Beacon/Airbag tech and history
Then the two scenarios:
Scenario 1
In a hut with friends, 200cm fresh last night and as you gear up your beacon is dead and there is no spare but you have an Avabag.
You’re a numbers guy and you’ve been consuming statistics for years. Like this ditty you found on PubMed, and this one from The Avalanche Review. The former claims an “adjusted mortality rate” for buried victims is 44%, while for non buried victims it’s 3%.
You know some of this stuff is based on computer modeling, some on the study of real-life accidents. Whatever, it all validates your gut feelings: I’ll go for it. I’m airbagged. I won’t get buried — I’ve got a dang solid chance of surviving. Simple as that.
Scenario 2
You're in the hut, the shuttle for the Heli is loading in 10 minutes and you forgot your avabag on the luggage rack of the coach on the way in that has already left- no time to get it before the Heli departs. Conditions are not "Low" but moderate tending to worse.
A friend told you he’d learned in Avy 2 that “one in two people will die if they’re completely buried. If wearing a beacon, it’s one in three.” You’d also read a study that was more pessimistic, citing about one in two.
I won’t ski first down anything, and these guys can dig fast, you think. Besides, we used to do this stuff without airbags and we survived. If I’m careful today, I won’t be on the bad side of the one in three.
Debate question
| Quote: |
| imagine you indeed have a choice between balloon or beacon — not both. And you’ve decided to make the Faustian bargain of skiing anyway. Which would you prefer to use, and why? |
I've summarized the scenarios so head to wild snow to read the full article- but lets debate 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's not a real dilemma is it? You would never be choosing between the two.
My hunch is that in the scenarios you describe an airbag may be more likely to save your life than a beacon.
But in neither situation would it be acceptable to ski without a beacon. Not least because you'd be failing in your duty to look after your mates while becoming a liability.
Oh and the situation when any kind of skiing is a sensible risk after "200cm fresh last night" is difficult to conceive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jedster wrote: |
It's not a real dilemma is it?
But in neither situation would it be acceptable to ski without a beacon. Not least because you'd be failing in your duty to look after your mates while becoming a liability.
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That is why it is a scenario and we have to imagine the situation - I've also truncated out from the scenarios the parts where you discuss with friends and agree to go without the pack or the beacon.
I agree with you and had the same initial thought about the duty of care to friends, and I refuse to ski with anyone that doesn't have a beacon, but thinking about it, if you were in a group (doesnt matter the number but lets say 5+) and no multiple burials, you're all very competent in using beacons, assuming that you had one less person with a beacon searching but with shovel and probe at hand and coordinating calling in the emergency services etc what would the impact be?
One of the trusted guides i've used for multiple years and head educator in the Salzbuger region always taught us if we were a large enough group that someone will first contact emergency services while the others start the search. The biggest time consumer is the digging not the locating the approximate area of the victim "Locking onto a signal".
After all we venture and it is acceptable to venture into the backcountry with a sole trusted partner many times that is one person with a beacon able to search for me an I accept that risk - it is a bit hypocritical to then demand someone else that is willing to ski with you and without a beacon when you have 3+ other people to search for you not to come. After all they don't comeor they come the number of people with beacons that are willing to help remains the same. But you have a person assuming they are not the victim with an extra probe and shovel to help.
Now if that person is willing to accept the risk to ski without the beacon that is a different thing!
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- In Canada at least you're not getting in a heli without a transceiver and excavation kit and the knowledge on how to use it, so that option is out.
- You won't be first down anything unless you're a known quantity and the slope's known to be extremely safe.
- Air bag use in helis is far from universal. I happen to have one, and I carry it, but I'd expect to die if I had to use it.
- If you've had 2m of fresh then the terrain selected for you will be extremely limited, and expect penetration problems. A jet pack would probably be better than an air bag in this circumstance.
The answer to the false dilemma is clear, then.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As far as I'm concerned, I would in both cases pick "no skiing today" regardless of how cool snow would be. There's always gonna be amazing day in future, unless you die having amazing day today without your gear that would safe your life.
For me personally, such questions and scenarios to play are plain stupid, as there should always be single answer to this sort of stuff and noone should even consider making decisions on what would you pick. Ok I agree ABS is not obligatory, and in certain conditions, I would ski without, but as soon as "Conditions are not "Low" but moderate tending to worse" it shouldn't be question.
PS: If you would forgot ABS in van, then I guess that means also your shovel and probe are missing, which means no skiing, regardless if conditions would be low.
| jedster wrote: |
| Oh and the situation when any kind of skiing is a sensible risk after "200cm fresh last night" is difficult to conceive. |
With proper conditions, it's perfectly possible to have amazing and safe day out there with this much of fresh snow. Problem is, these "proper conditions" are normally not there.
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I'm with @philwig, and @primoz,
If the snow pack is not safely stable (to the extent that that can be estimated) you'll be holed up in in the lodge.
Scenario 1 is possible, but you're at fault as you let your batteries go down too far. Or you haven't had your beacon adequately maintained. Or you didn't test it the day before. Either way, it's a safe way home for you or waiting in the hut for your chums.
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I think we all know it's not a real scenario that would ever happen, but the academic point is an interesting one to discuss, I think.
Assume you have to ski or you'll get shot in the head, or something ridiculous, which of the two safety devices is most useful?
I'd say that's dictated by the terrain.
Top of a big Alaskan face? I'll take the airbag, 'cos any avalanche has a reasonable chance of being big enough to bury you too far down to be recovered in time if you do get buried (or kill you outright anyway).
Skiing trees and more broken up/micro terrain features? I'll take the beacon as an airbag may increase the chance of trauma death (smashed into a tree and higher speed), and a slide might be too short - before it's stopped by terrain - for the particle sorting airbags rely on to really work.
| Quote: |
| After all we venture and it is acceptable to venture into the backcountry with a sole trusted partner many times that is one person with a beacon able to search for me an I accept that risk - it is a bit hypocritical to then demand someone else that is willing to ski with you and without a beacon when you have 3+ other people to search for you not to come. After all [if] they don't comeor they come the number of people with beacons that are willing to help remains the same. But you have a person assuming they are not the victim with an extra probe and shovel to help. |
However the fact they are there means there's more weight on the snowpack increasing the chances of an avalanche too...
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@clarky999, It's still a dodgy old question from WildSnow as if you did not have the group wisdom of SHs to contribute, you might think these are legitimate scenarios... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Assume you have to ski or you'll get shot in the head, or something ridiculous, which of the two safety devices is most useful?
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I'll periodically ski without a bag if I several of the following conditions are met: 1) I am climbing a lot 2) I am with a guide who has a better understanding of the snowpack 3) the terrain is low risk 4) the avalanche risk is 2 or lower. Otherwise, I'm wearing the bag. I would never ski without a beacon. So, I guess I am coming down on the side of "beacon" in practice, even if there is probably a better technical answer to the scenarios posed in the article.
I get that hypotheticals are important for teasing out what you really think about things and that extreme or unrealistic examples are often helpful in doing that. But there are better ones than the question posed by wildsnow: "would you ski that route with no safety gear?" is usually a good hypothetical sense-check. If the answer is "no" then you have a route finding issue, not an equipment issue.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Assume you have to ski or you'll get shot in the head, or something ridiculous, which of the two safety devices is most useful? |
I would actually ski without transceiver... quite few of my ski tours (if 2h trip up the mountain can be called ski tour) are early morning before work tours. At 5 or 6am, there's pretty much noone around on the hill, so regardless of what airbag might help, while transceiver certainly wouldn't. But no matter what, I keep taking transceiver even on those tours... especially as in some 50% of cases, you meet someone as crazy as you going up in such weird hour, so if anything would happen, transceiver might still help 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@primoz, 
Plus, good safety hygiene. If you always take it you are less likely to forget it, I think.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you don't have a beeper you're not skiing off-piste with me. End of discussion.
If you don't have an airbag it's safe to say you don't have a shovel and probe either. See above.
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If it slides, ski faster.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
If you don't have an airbag it's safe to say you don't have a shovel and probe either.
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Plenty of people still skiing with backpacks without airbags in, surely?
I actually sometimes ski with my airbag backpack without the airbag in... (only on piste though  )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I would never ski without a beacon
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I'm in the same boat - I pretty much always have my beacon on, even if I know I'm only skiing on piste. Partly because it might come in handy in some kind of near-to-piste slide, and partly because it doesn't get in the way, so the 'cost' of wearing it is basically nil. Whereas an avy pack is heavy and bulky, so I will genuinely think about whether or not I need to take it with me. Most of the time (85%?) I'm either planning to be off piste or want to carry a spare layer/water/chocolate/random stuff, so the bag is coming with me anyway. But as I say, I will sometimes take the airbag out if i don't think I'm going off piste (but there's a very high kicking-yourself-later cost when you find a magically untracked powder slope just off the side of the piste and in perfect conditions).
But for the purposes of the original question...I'd feel really weird without the beacon, so would probably opt for that. But purely in terms of saving your own skin, I could believe that an avy pack would actually be the more rational choice.
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Poster: A snowHead
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How many here had ever been fully buried? I'm guessing not many?
I would take my chance without beacon, as long as my mates are ok with me not able to help in the search. If my mates say no, I'm obviously staying home.
If I have a airbag, and my mates are ok with me not having a beacon, I'd be skiing!
If the condition makes me hesitate to go without a beacon, I probably shouldn't go even with one. I probably wouldn't go.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
| How many here had ever been fully buried? I'm guessing not many?. |
Jesus wept.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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On a (somewhat) related point I went to one of Henry's Avalanche Talks recently.
He was talking about mental games he plays with himself to avoid risk compensation and force careful risk assessment.
I asked his opinion of one of mine that I've mentioned on snowheads before:
Even when I'm wearing a bag I generally make a choice whether to fix the handle and arm it at the top of every run (then deactivate it at the lift). I find that the thought process of "just why do I feel the need to have the bag armed here" forces me to take a step back and go through the risk assessment. If it suddenly feels more hazardous, why is that? Should I even be skiing it?
Obviously this runs the risk of the ultimate in stupidity - getting caught in a slide with a bag on but no handle to pull...
Henry said that he sometimes does the same thing for the same reason. It's a personal choice but whatever helps you stay in the right frame of mind.
He also said that sometimes on HIGHER RISK days, HE LEAVES THE BAG BEHIND, because this makes it easier to resist the temptation to stray from very low risk terrain (below 30 degrees, shoulders, etc).
I could totally see the sense of that even if it is counterintuitive.
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Different people will have different views.
I used to ride obviously-will-never-slide stuff without the bag armed, but someone pointed out that you may end up in something you don't intend, and it's simpler to always disarm/ arm it every run. That way you never have to think about it, never have to check, it's just there. The same way you use a transceiver.
I don't really believe the bag will make any difference, hence I reject the "risk compensation" logic.
I'm not going to ride something I think will slide, full stop.
I ride with my hand on the lever now and then - I don't want to have to find it whilst rag-dolling if something horrid collapsed under me, and I don't want to appear in the "bag failed to inflate" deaths.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@philwig,
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I don't really believe the bag will make any difference, hence I reject the "risk compensation" logic.
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You may be immune to "risk compensation" but that would make you unusual. At the population level there is plenty of evidence than most people do struggle with risk compensation.
As I say, you may not suffer from it but I think the correct prior is to work on the basis that you do and keep checking.
One interesting observation about skiing is that very experienced off piste skiers are prone to dying in avalanches (including guides etc) - one way of looking at it is that they "reinvest" the safety "savings" from knowledge and experience in taking on more exposure (i.e., fun). This is a form of risk compensation.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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As a Professional in the mountains and as an individual searching for adventurous lines, outside of a controlled area, No beacon, no play.
I have owned airbag backpacks and never used them, in the early days because they were too much of a compromise. Later ones because there was nowhere I wanted to use one (there are many situations in the more serious lines where you might survive the avalanche, but you won't survive if you are accelerating on top of it). Or it would give to much of a false sense of security.
In Japan I may have considered wearing one if I had access to it, but didn't have room for an extra pack that would only be used on personal days.
As for the stats in the OP they are terrain and condition specific (and the way things work in NA is very different to the rest of the world)
As a snowshoe guide except for flat terrain with no objective danger, everyone wears a beacon. There are many situations where a slip, fall or even a slough from tree or terrain can bury someone, there is NOWHERE where and airbag pack would be of the slightest use.....except the pub
As a Cat skiiing guide I've used beacons to find clients who have fallen over less than 5 m and have now disappeared.
As for getting being involved in an avalanche then some very serious errors in terrain and condition choices have been made and you should not have been operating. There is always the chance of someone doing something stupid but dropping off a traverse into the wrong gully or skiing into the wrong stand of trees would only cause a minor problem and an airbag would be of no use anyway.
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Considering that I spent many years off piste with a beacon but no bag, because bags didn't exist, I would choose the beacon. I do have a bag, but seriously wonder how useful it really is. There seems to be one particular circumstance under which it might help, which is in a slide consisting of fast flowing loose snow, with no terrain trap at the end and no following slide to bury you... also no trees / or rocks to smack you about. Seems to me to be of limited use tbh.
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@Steilhang, I know what you mean about the bag, but I know two people personally who attribute bags to saving their lives in slides, and that's just in Val. Also every guide wears one (not all wear helmets, for comparison), so I wear one and arm it every time I'm off piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you ski off piste the ESSENTIAL kit (and legally required in some places such as Italy) is Beacon, Shovel, Probe.
That kit may not only save your life, but allows you to save the lives of others.
An airbag is an entirely optional choice for you. My advice is attend an avalanche safety course and learn up.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Question.
Which bit of kit has saved the most skiers lives in the mountains?
Beacon.
Airbag.
Phone.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jbob wrote: |
Question.
Which bit of kit has saved the most skiers lives in the mountains?
Beacon.
Airbag.
Phone. |
I'd bet beacon simply because of the number of years they've been in use and number of people that use them.
Now if the question was "which do you think will save the most lives over the next decade" I think beacons would still win but airbags would be much higher.
I find it really hard to guess about phones, limited phone signal, most guides will have radios and for most avalanches been buried is the biggest risk to life.
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FAQ
