OH has just written up her interview with Jereme Heitz the designer of the Pure
THE LATEST FREERIDE WEAPON. What's so exciting about the new SCOTT Pure Pro 109 and why did collaborator, Swiss freerider, Jereme Heitz call it the future of skiing? We asked Franz Marson, SCOTT Ski Product Supervisor, for the inside story...
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I visited @spyderjon yesterday and and very pleased he recommended and the Fritschi Tectons on Faction Agent 2.0 (96mm) for a mid-weight all-mountain setup for use around PDS. They weigh around 2400 grams with bindings. I have Tecnica Cohise boots and I would consider getting some Zero G’s if I was looking for more weight saving.
@BobinCH, FYI there is a round of ski-mountaineering World Cup being held in Morgins at the end or January and also includes an armature event if you fancied it. Good opportunity to see some of the fittest light-weight humans on the planet and there will probably be an expo to view and buy the latest and lightest kit.
The Pure looks like a nice ski but the designer doesn’t actually explain why it’s the future of skiing. Any ideas?
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@Ozboy, where I had my bindings mounted they have a lot of ski-mo gear and the guy was showing me his race boots.
Crazy light, though I suspect that there are probably others out there lighter.
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@zzz, evidently, according to the OH it's a one ski concept depending on your non-piste / off piste orientated discipline?
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Ozboy wrote:
I visited @spyderjon yesterday and and very pleased he recommended and the Fritschi Tectons on Faction Agent 2.0 (96mm) for a mid-weight all-mountain setup for use around PDS. They weigh around 2400 grams with bindings. I have Tecnica Cohise boots and I would consider getting some Zero G’s if I was looking for more weight saving.
@BobinCH, FYI there is a round of ski-mountaineering World Cup being held in Morgins at the end or January and also includes an armature event if you fancied it. Good opportunity to see some of the fittest light-weight humans on the planet and there will probably be an expo to view and buy the latest and lightest kit.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
zzz wrote:
@Weathercam,
The Pure looks like a nice ski but the designer doesn’t actually explain why it’s the future of skiing. Any ideas?
Jeremie said 'the future of skiing is having only one pair of skis in my garage'. Is the Scott Pure ski the future?
I would say 'yes', but for a certain type of skier. The one who wants to freeride every session whatever the conditions. It has the stability, the manoeuverability in any conditions.
Would love to try them but struggle to believe a ski that Jeremie Heitz rips on will be much fun for the rest of us. His old Scrapper 115’s had tails made of lead. I couldn’t ski them
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Weathercam, Hmmmm…now I understand
@BobinCH, good luck with the race if you are planning on using the same set up as last time
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Sat 4-12-21 18:59; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
As an aside, has anyone toured on any of the Dalbello Quantum range of boots?
@BobinCH, good luck with the race if you are planning on using the same set up as last time
Would be fun to do it on the DPS 112’s but an icy skin track at 5am could be a bit sporting! Might see if I can squeeze into my wife’s speed guide Crests. Definitely using Zero G’s. No interest in those slippers
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BobinCH wrote:
....Would be fun to do it on the DPS 112’s but an icy skin track at 5am could be a bit sporting! Might see if I can squeeze into my wife’s speed guide Crests. Definitely using Zero G’s. No interest in those slippers...
Presume they'll be age categories, but not too sure if they'll be weight ones
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Love days like today, opening weekend so use the lifts to gain access to the good stuff, and that's the beauty of Serre Che we were the only ones in a big sector!
I haven’t had a chance to use the pair I bought last year . I have some work done on them, fitted a booster strap , they feel really tight in the heel pouch but they are a nightmare to get off !
@mishmash,
Thank you. Perhaps you can feed back the skiing feeling when you’ve felt it!
Ta
X
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Weathercam wrote:
Love days like today, opening weekend so use the lifts to gain access to the good stuff, and that's the beauty of Serre Che we were the only ones in a big sector!
Is there any correlation between cycling rate of climb (m/h or VAM) and touring climbing rates. I cycle at around 800 m/h when at a good weight on a long climb of say 10-15kms - less at my current "winter weight"
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ozboy wrote:
Is there any correlation between cycling rate of climb (m/h or VAM) and touring climbing rates. I cycle at around 800 m/h when at a good weight on a long climb of say 10-15kms - less at my current "winter weight"
Interesting question!
There are some that suggest cycling doesn't have such great crossover to weight bearing activities, so they might be pessimistic. Clearly some people are much better at one or another which could skew things and further weaken any correlation.
There are lots of confounding variables that are going to complicate things. IME most people are touring at a pretty low and consistent effort level, whereas cycling is a much bigger range from Strava kom speed to casual zone 2 ride. You also have to look at terrain, ideally you would compare like for like - although this doesn't mean the same angle! You'd really want to compare similar efficiency gradients, I suspect optimum skin track is a little steeper than optimum cycling climbing gradient. That's not to say there's no correlation. Thats before you think about wind, equipment, snow, fatigue etc.
So I think at best you get a weak correlation. However, even that might be somewhat useful. Better option would be to correlate trail running uphill with ski uphill as you will probably get a much stronger correlation.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ozboy wrote:
Is there any correlation between cycling rate of climb (m/h or VAM) and touring climbing rates. I cycle at around 800 m/h when at a good weight on a long climb of say 10-15kms - less at my current "winter weight"
Faster on a bike which is normal as it has wheels despite lower gradient.
On My local 7% 10km hill I can do approx 1000m/hour
That ski touring route is almost 30% and at similar average heart rate am around 800m/hour although not sure I could sustain it as long.
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Here's a couple of interesting sorties up the Col du Granon.
11.5 km circa 1050m average 9%
This is running the fecker !!
and then a moderate ride
Obviously riding it way faster whilst running it very similar speed to ski-touring at an average page of circa 575m per hour
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I bet there is correlation if you've a big enough sample size or longitudinal data. If someone fighting gravity gets 10kg heavier and worse fitness/ oxygen delivery they will get slower. If they get fitter and loose 10k they will get faster.
Maybe for a couple of kilos and oxygen transport arbitrary units, skill levels / specific training will overcome this. But over time or numbers there will be correlation.
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BobinCH wrote:
Faster on a bike which is normal as it has wheels despite lower gradient.
For me it's exactly the opposite. Ok I don't ride on road, but mtb only, and for mtb I can get somewhere around 1000VAM if I push real hard. For ski touring, 1000VAM is not all that bad, yet I still need to go a bit faster and shorter, not standard 5 or 6h tour (average on long tours is around 800-900VAM for me). And definitely fastest one is mountain running, where I can relatively easy get to 1100-1200VAM. Ski touring and running are relatively similar, except that with running, I have to carry up my own weight plus let's say 2-3kg of extra stuff (clothes, running shoes, runnning pack), while with ski touring I would say equipment is most likely in range of extra 15kg (I just weighted skis I spend about 80% time in backcountry and they are 2.2kg each, plus boots, backpack with airbag, way heavier clothes then summer running clothes...), so it's normal you are slower then running. And on steep(er) climbs there's not much glide to profit from it compared to running.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Thanks all and very helpful and @primoz your numbers are great!!. Reason I ask is I have signed up for Haute Route Alps road cycling event (Nice > Megeve) and wanted to look at touring to build on my endurance fitness as I will not have my bike and zwift with me in the alps - I am currently heavy v+ weight of kit can only help build strength - I hate running. My local mountain from our apartment is 800M altitude (1200 > 2000) which I figure I can do early doors for less than 2 hours in total mostly on groomed cat tracks. @Weathercam, Stage 3 starts at SC and goes over Lautaret, Sarenne and L2A and will be staying in SC for the night.,
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Ozboy, chapeau for signing up to that!!
Are they doing a Time Trial up the Granon like they often do?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Weathercam,
TT is up the top half of Loze from Meribel which is very steep
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Ozboy, a friend has done a number of Haute Routes, lots of very strong riders turn up for it and treat it very seriously, sounds like a great well organised event! I'd definitely be trying to get race fit and dropping any excessive weight for the hills!
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@kitenski, it’s all about weight loss for me. I am at 90kg and will need to get to about 78kg by August - i am confident I can do this as done it before. I did HR Pyrenees in 2017 and finished mid field and going into this one less nervous as know what to expect. I have also done Tour de Mont Blanc and have the endurance for long days in the mountains.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Ozboy, good luck, that amount of weight loss will have a huge benefit, good job we don't have a holiday around the corner where we normally eat and drink a bit too much So 12kg in 8 months is a big ask, especially on top of the training I imagine you will be doing - good luck!!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@kitenski, thanks and it a massive ask I know. I keep it very simple and use MyFitnessPal to ensure I am in calorie deficit - no fancy diets. High carbs / low fat. Key is getting enough carbs to fuel the training rides which stops the body craving for food afterwards if glycogen levels get very low. Also cut right back on booze. The biggest thing I’ve learned over the years is ensuring I take in sufficient carbs when exercising - i do 60 grams / hour on a big ride. Also is taking in supplements (nothing fancy) such as omega 3 fish oil to keep the immune system in check.
I bet there is correlation if you've a big enough sample size or longitudinal data. If someone fighting gravity gets 10kg heavier and worse fitness/ oxygen delivery they will get slower. If they get fitter and loose 10k they will get faster.
Maybe for a couple of kilos and oxygen transport arbitrary units, skill levels / specific training will overcome this. But over time or numbers there will be correlation.
I don't think anyone would suggest there's not a positive correlation (i.e. people that are good at one tend to be better at the other) as there's certainly some crossover with fitness. The question is how strong is that correlation (i.e. could you predict one from the other). We've seen in this thread some are faster on a bike and some are faster on skis suggesting quite a lot of variance. Of course some of the difference is from confounding variables, maybe a well designed lab based study decreases the variance quite a bit. I'm still not sure you get a really strong correlation though, I certainly wouldn't be confident in saying improving ski touring numbers is guaranteed to increase cycling performance -for all we know the increased performance is coming from improved technique and specific muscle adaptations that may not carry over perfectly to cycling.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ozboy wrote:
Thanks all and very helpful and @primoz your numbers are great!!. Reason I ask is I have signed up for Haute Route Alps road cycling event (Nice > Megeve) and wanted to look at touring to build on my endurance fitness as I will not have my bike and zwift with me in the alps - I am currently heavy v+ weight of kit can only help build strength - I hate running. My local mountain from our apartment is 800M altitude (1200 > 2000) which I figure I can do early doors for less than 2 hours in total mostly on groomed cat tracks. @Weathercam, Stage 3 starts at SC and goes over Lautaret, Sarenne and L2A and will be staying in SC for the night.,
Ski touring is great for base building/general fitness. You could also consider cross country skiing if there is any trails nearby as is also great and has some advantages from a training point of view - although almost certainly less fun.
That said you can't beat specificity. There is a reason we don't see cyclists and runners dominating each others sports*, and triathletes will tell you it's often difficult to improve performance at two disciplines simultaneously. A cheap second hand super basic bike (anything will do) and a dumb turbo trainer could be had for less than €150 or perhaps a gym membership somewhere with spin bikes. Not only likely to help maintain/improve cycling performance but if weight loss is a goal you can't beat some easy zone 1/2 cycling which isn't going to produce significant fatigue and also burns some extra kcal.
Can you just start cycle training after winter and be fine for your event - almost certainly. But I think you might be doing your training a bit of a disservice.
* I realise someone will likely point out a few pro cyclists have ran 2:45-2:55 marathons. While it's certainly an impressive time you have to put it in perspective. They are top 0.01% of cyclists, with super-elite genetics, training full time and they are still finishing over 25% slower than the winners. (Not a knock on cyclists, the top runners would likely perform even worse than 25% slower on a bike although a roglic kipchoge duathlon would be highly entertaining!)
Well just back from another sortie, and snow was still deep and cold, but strong winds have developed a bit of a crust.
As we were climbing up the final pitch a group appeared and skied it, and some were having to straight line it and others were all over the place with old school turns etc
From the looks of things I'd surmised that maybe they were on sub 90 width skis, so I was optimistic about me being on my wider skis with those shovels for tips, and have to say, bigging myself up, that I was able to rip with confidence at speed, and was well chuffed with them (Scott Superguide Freetour 105) though OH found the going tough too on her 106 Pagoda Tours and normally technical snow does not bother her too much?
#oldfartscanstillrip
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
boarder2020 wrote:
motdoc wrote:
I bet there is correlation if you've a big enough sample size or longitudinal data. If someone fighting gravity gets 10kg heavier and worse fitness/ oxygen delivery they will get slower. If they get fitter and loose 10k they will get faster.
Maybe for a couple of kilos and oxygen transport arbitrary units, skill levels / specific training will overcome this. But over time or numbers there will be correlation.
I don't think anyone would suggest there's not a positive correlation (i.e. people that are good at one tend to be better at the other) as there's certainly some crossover with fitness. The question is how strong is that correlation (i.e. could you predict one from the other). We've seen in this thread some are faster on a bike and some are faster on skis suggesting quite a lot of variance. Of course some of the difference is from confounding variables, maybe a well designed lab based study decreases the variance quite a bit. I'm still not sure you get a really strong correlation though, I certainly wouldn't be confident in saying improving ski touring numbers is guaranteed to increase cycling performance -for all we know the increased performance is coming from improved technique and specific muscle adaptations that may not carry over perfectly to cycling.
I haven't seen any studies but given neither skinning or cycling are very technical and in both CV capacity is way more important than physical strength then I'd be surprised if performance was not highly correlated
After all it is free
After all it is free
jedster wrote:
.....I haven't seen any studies but given neither skinning or cycling are very technical......
Mmmm does depend on where you are skinning, we have one route that we call "47 kick-turns" and that's in a forest and depending on the snow-pack it can be very technical, along with other routes where I certainly would not take inexperienced people.
And even in Spring you can end up with a technical climb, especially if you don't have crampons
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jedster wrote:
boarder2020 wrote:
motdoc wrote:
I bet there is correlation if you've a big enough sample size or longitudinal data. If someone fighting gravity gets 10kg heavier and worse fitness/ oxygen delivery they will get slower. If they get fitter and loose 10k they will get faster.
Maybe for a couple of kilos and oxygen transport arbitrary units, skill levels / specific training will overcome this. But over time or numbers there will be correlation.
I don't think anyone would suggest there's not a positive correlation (i.e. people that are good at one tend to be better at the other) as there's certainly some crossover with fitness. The question is how strong is that correlation (i.e. could you predict one from the other). We've seen in this thread some are faster on a bike and some are faster on skis suggesting quite a lot of variance. Of course some of the difference is from confounding variables, maybe a well designed lab based study decreases the variance quite a bit. I'm still not sure you get a really strong correlation though, I certainly wouldn't be confident in saying improving ski touring numbers is guaranteed to increase cycling performance -for all we know the increased performance is coming from improved technique and specific muscle adaptations that may not carry over perfectly to cycling.
I haven't seen any studies but given neither skinning or cycling are very technical and in both CV capacity is way more important than physical strength then I'd be surprised if performance was not highly correlated
CV capacity is key, but efficiency of movement is also an important factor. Even elite triathletes that are training for both running and cycling tend to be better at one or the other - there is research to support this. Biomechanics, muscle strength/imbalances, efficiency of movement, biology etc. all play a role. Going back to the pro cyclists runing marathons they are 25% slower than the winners. I don't think the cyclists have a worse CV capacity, they are simply not trained to run and it shows.
Again, I would agree there is most likely a positive correlation between cycling and skinning. The question is how strong is the correlation. As an example there is a positive correlation between height and weight, but you couldn't accurately predict one from the other as there is simply to much variance (positive, but weak correlation). I suspect cycling to skinning is stronger than height to weight, but still by no means strong.
Regarding ski touring not being technical. I somewhat agree, but I think there is enough technique involved that it matters. I've certainly seen first time tourers struggle much more than their less fit but experienced friends. Some of this is not necessary physical but also experience related e.g. poor pacing, setting inefficient skin track angle, lots of stops that can be reduced purely with more experience (e.g. better clothing layering system), slower transitions etc. Even as a semi experienced tourer my first tour always features much more faffing than towards the end of the season when I'm back in more of a groove.
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Despite the science pretty sure Ozboy’s cycling is going to benefit from his ski touring. Especially if he’s breaking trail in conditions like today
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looks lovely
So 12kg in 8 months is a big ask, especially on top of the training I imagine you will be doing - good luck!!