 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wow! He certainly ain’t no Wally. Kudos to those bindings!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Weathercam, someone must have worked out the optimum angle/snow conditions for speedy ascents? I bet it's out there on the internet if I could be bothered to search
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I guess so when you're doing "casual 30ft" cliff drops.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Weathercam, looks about right 
@BobinCH, that sounds right. the number of transitions probably relevant too esp if your kick turn game isn't so good
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Regarding the heart rate discussions:
Be careful is just using wrist based optical heart rate (i.e. sports watch) as they can be wildly immaculate. If you want good HR data you need a chest strap. Also, if you are trying to improve your fitness you are much better off going slower and getting your heart rate in zone 2 for long periods of time. The Norwegian cross country ski team are arguably some of the fittest people on earth - 90% of their training is zone 1 and 2 low intensity work. The science shows polarised training model with the vast majority being relatively easy zone 2 training is the way to go. The ideas of no pain no gain or you have to train fast to go fast are outdated now.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Regarding the heart rate discussions:
Be careful is just using wrist based optical heart rate (i.e. sports watch) as they can be wildly immaculate. If you want good HR data you need a chest strap. Also, if you are trying to improve your fitness you are much better off going slower and getting your heart rate in zone 2 for long periods of time. The Norwegian cross country ski team are arguably some of the fittest people on earth - 90% of their training is zone 1 and 2 low intensity work. The science shows polarised training model with the vast majority being relatively easy zone 2 training is the way to go. The ideas of no pain no gain or you have to train fast to go fast are outdated now. |
Fair enough for a pro but if you have 2 or 3 30 to 60 min cardio opportunities a week surely pushing it is necessary to progress. It’s certainly worked for me
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Fair enough for a pro but if you have 2 or 3 30 to 60 min cardio opportunities a week surely pushing it is necessary to progress. It’s certainly worked for me
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Yes you will certainly get improvements. The improvements are likely to be due to adaptation in anaerobic capacity, which is fine for short term, but will plateau soon enough. The guys at uphill athlete (really the experts in this area - if it's good enough for kilian journet who works with them) explain it a lot better than I can - https://www.uphillathlete.com/aerobic-deficiency-syndrome/
In regards to needing lots of time there was an intervention study looking at recreational runners training approx 4 hours per week (which doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but I accept to some that is considered a lot of time). They found the group given the polarised training approach improved 10km time slightly more than the threshold group - although was not significant. So certainly no cause to write off polarised training as only for those training lots of hours per week.
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You know it makes sense.
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This fixation with speed...what's it all about? I have yet to be told by a mountain guide that I am too slow. Conversely on numerous occasions I've been told to ease off! My pace is never fast either!
There is interesting discussion in one of the American back country books about slope angle and achieving optimum ascent rates. The lead guide is Margaret Wheeler, female!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
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Fair enough for a pro but if you have 2 or 3 30 to 60 min cardio opportunities a week surely pushing it is necessary to progress. It’s certainly worked for me
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Yes you will certainly get improvements. The improvements are likely to be due to adaptation in anaerobic capacity, which is fine for short term, but will plateau soon enough. The guys at uphill athlete (really the experts in this area - if it's good enough for kilian journet who works with them) explain it a lot better than I can - https://www.uphillathlete.com/aerobic-deficiency-syndrome/
In regards to needing lots of time there was an intervention study looking at recreational runners training approx 4 hours per week (which doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but I accept to some that is considered a lot of time). They found the group given the polarised training approach improved 10km time slightly more than the threshold group - although was not significant. So certainly no cause to write off polarised training as only for those training lots of hours per week. |
Interesting and seems logical.
I found though that increasing intensity of training (e.g., hill sprints) really helped prepare me for a mountaineering trip compared to a previous ski-touring trip.
I THINK this may be because my base aerobic capacity is pretty good but I had struggled to recover my heart rate from periods of high intensity effort (anaerobic) at altitude. You know, a bit of harder scrambling, a bungled kick turn on steep ground, or just a really steep boot pack. I THINK the high intensity training helps with that stuff which is inherent in mountaineering.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Looks great!
How would that compare to a trail run of similar distance/D+? I reckon I go uphill at a maximum of c.500m/hr otherwise I'm cooked and usually calculate the altitude gain at that pace and distance at my running pace on the flat and add them together so that would be about 5 hours I would say.
Obviously much quicker coming down on skis!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DJL wrote: |
Looks great!
How would that compare to a trail run of similar distance/D+? I reckon I go uphill at a maximum of c.500m/hr otherwise I'm cooked and usually calculate the altitude gain at that pace and distance at my running pace on the flat and add them together so that would be about 5 hours I would say.
Obviously much quicker coming down on skis! |
Good question! We’re estimating 5 hours for the ascent assuming we’ll start at around 500m/h and gradually slow down to about 300m/h by the top
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Rogerdodger wrote: |
| This fixation with speed...what's it all about? I have yet to be told by a mountain guide that I am too slow. Conversely on numerous occasions I've been told to ease off! My pace is never fast either! |
Speed is critical on longer tours where you only have a set amount of daylight, need to get to a specific point before a certain time ( e.g. lift, hut, winter room, public/private transport) or need to be off the snow before the avalanche danger increases (e.g. late spring). I'll agree that just being able to climb at 800m/hr doesn't mean you have the stamina to do a 12 hr ski tour at an acceptable rate though. Tours are generally planned with a time safety margin but 'things' happen and being the one at the back when the clock is ticking is no fun. The most adventure for the least pain. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I found though that increasing intensity of training (e.g., hill sprints) really helped prepare me for a mountaineering trip compared to a previous ski-touring trip.
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If you look at the top endurance athletes they are following some kind of polarised training plan year round. However, leading into a competition the ratio of low intensity to high intensity will shift a little with some extra high intensity sessions added. This helps them peak for the event (like I said high intensity training does work!). Think of the high intensity stuff being the icing on the cake, where the cake is only as big as you aerobic capacity.
Also there is the case for specificity. Hill sprints will help uphill performance a lot more than say cycling. I'm not sure what your training was like prior to the ski touring trip, but if it was mainly flat it's not surprising hill sprints had a bigger effect.
There is also the possibility that you felt better this time partly due to the adaptations from the previous ski tour trip.
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but I had struggled to recover my heart rate from periods of high intensity effort (anaerobic) at altitude
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In an ideal world your aerobic capacity would be so great you can do most of this stuff at a reasonable pace while staying in your aerobic zone. There is some stuff about Kilian Journet heart rate while climbing island peak I think uphill athlete did an interesting article about this. What high intensity stuff will help with is pushing up your lactate threshold - more efficient mitochondria. When you do use the anaerobic system you will clear lactate much quicker, which should help performance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Rogerdodger wrote: |
This fixation with speed...what's it all about? I have yet to be told by a mountain guide that I am too slow. Conversely on numerous occasions I've been told to ease off! My pace is never fast either!
There is interesting discussion in one of the American back country books about slope angle and achieving optimum ascent rates. The lead guide is Margaret Wheeler, female!! |
I think if you're fortunate to go out touring on a regular basis, 2-3 times a week then you naturally feel yourself getting stronger/faster etc
It's very similar, for me at least, to being out on my road-bike and increasing my average speed and/or running.
Also as I tour a fair amount on my own, I tend, just like out on the bike to look at my figures. I always go a lot quicker on my own and sort of get that out of my system, well at least try to?
This week I've done a couple of longish tours, 5hrs+, yesterday was 17km but not too much vertical (950m)as it was a long approach and I'm planning on the same again tomorrow.
But it's getting a little warmer and again just like cycling/running I'll try and hydrate accordingly, but interestingly, my dogs still do not get hot, no panting at all and no need for water even after 17km with the last 2.5km down the equivalent of a blue piste, if that was in the Summer I have to be very careful with them.
I'd hate to go out with @BobinCH, as I'd probably blow up trying to stay with him as he'd be pushing it hard not trying to get dropped by an OAP
@BobinCH, what is the distance / vertical tomorrow that you are doing?
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@boarder2020,
thanks - that made sense
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| @BobinCH, what is the distance / vertical tomorrow that you are doing? |
The first few 20 secs of the video clip says 19,80 km & 1780 m altitude between 1300m to 3083m.
4 km / hour with that altitude gain is quick going, it would take most 6hrs or more + stops. The whole day will be 8hrs plus.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 20-02-21 6:20; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
8 hrs, what are the restaurants open up there
Like I said a couple of days ago did 15km, and the stats were circa 1,350m vert up to 2,753 in 3hrs 30 min with a 30min break another 400m an hour and a bit, 90mins tops.
https://www.strava.com/activities/4796107355 |
Yes 15km up and down is easier to get over the 4km/hr mark.
If it's 19 km up and down then yes 5 hrs should be possible esp. for Bob. If it's 19 km just to the peak then it will be a long day.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@DB, oh read that wrong, thought it was 19km round trip as opposed to 38km, but then the figs don't really tally??
My OH has been banging out (running) at least one-half marathon every week 21.3km so when and if she eventually gets here she'll be fit and that's the thing, many a person comes out to ski-tour from a small level of fitness endurance and then is faced with the prospect of a five hour day, maybe ok for one day but four or five consecutively is a big ask.
It's like asking someone who is sort of fit to go and run a half marathon?
That's why many who are out now are only managing 500m or so up to the middle station etc
Temps only -2 so I'll be getting going by 08:30
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Here are the stats:
We want to be skiing down by 11am given the warm temperatures forecast so will leave at 5am giving 5 hours for the climb and an hour for a coffee break at the cabane brunet and some drone action at the top. Leaving early also means we hopefully get the summit to ourselves
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Looks like a solid day/morning out. Hope you have the time to take some pics
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You know it makes sense.
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+1. ^^^. pics please
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| @DB, oh read that wrong, thought it was 19km round trip as opposed to 38km, but then the figs don't really tally?? |
Sometimes for ski touring routes they give the distance & altitude climb to the peak - esp. where there may be multiple options for the descent. Looks like you were right and it is the shorter distance.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Spyderjon or other experts, do you know if a dynafit crampon will fut a Fritschi Xenic binding?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| @Spyderjon or other experts, do you know if a dynafit crampon will fut a Fritschi Xenic binding? |
Yep, they do. I can't think of a sub 500g tech binding that doesn't use the Dynafit system.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| @Spyderjon or other experts, do you know if a dynafit crampon will fut a Fritschi Xenic binding? |
Affirmative
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Yep, they do. I can't think of a sub 500g tech binding that doesn't use the Dynafit system
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My Dynafit crampons won't fit my Plum Pikas. This is very annoying.
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@gorilla, I have Plum guides - not sure if they are the same spec for ski crampons but Dynafit ones need a bit of "persuasion" but they go in
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Thanks @spyderjon, @Weathercam,
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@Arno, it would take more force than I am comfortable using. You would never be able to fit them quickly in a real situation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Can‘t the jaws for the crampons be pried open slightly to get them in?
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@DB, on Plums it's milled aluminium so no
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FAQ
