Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better! Registration's totally free, of course, and makes snowHeads easier to use and to understand, gives better searching, filtering etc. as well as access to 'members only' forums, discounts and deals that U don't even know exist as a 'guest' user. (btw. 50,000+ snowHeads already know all this, making snowHeads the biggest, most active community of snow-heads in the UK, so you'll be in good company)..... When you register, you get our free weekly(-ish) snow report by email. It's rather good and not made up by tourist offices (or people that love the tourist office and want to marry it either)... We don't share your email address with anyone and we never send out any of those cheesy 'message from our partners' emails either. Anyway, snowHeads really is MUCH better when you're logged in - not least because you get to post your own messages complaining about things that annoy you like perhaps this banner which, incidentally, disappears when you log in :-)
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
👁 durr, I forgot...
Or: Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Gore-Tex - The Dark side

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead

http://youtube.com/v/uPUUA9AOe5A

When looking for some quality gear, I haven't given the downside a thought. I will be in future.

I post this in case that others haven't given this a second thought either.
snow report
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It's not really that surprising – innovative material designed to be durable doesn't break down shocker. What is the alternative? By its nature of being a ski forum, this is a place where people are going out in extreme conditions and need to be suitably clad.
snow report
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Scarlet wrote:
It's not really that surprising – innovative material designed to be durable doesn't break down shocker. What is the alternative? By its nature of being a ski forum, this is a place where people are going out in extreme conditions and need to be suitably clad.

It's not at all surprising - but I simply had not joined the dots Embarassed

In my case, it just means I will now ask myself, "Do I really need it and is there a greener alternative". eg. For ski gloves - is it really necessary, if seldom ski in the rain. I have just bought some Reusch (before I saw this), who really highlight the green credentials of the product: https://www.reusch.com/int/en/shop/winter/men/alpine-ski-gloves-men/reusch-explorer-pro-r-tex%C2%AE-xt-pcr-lobster/?card=12198

If a holiday skier, that stays On Piste , goes for one week per year, and doesn't climb mountains - do I really need the latest Goretex jacket?
snow report
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Old Fartbag wrote:
If a holiday skier, that stays On Piste , goes for one week per year, and doesn't climb mountains - do I really need the latest Goretex jacket?


Even as a multi-week/year skier who does climb mountains, you could end up with the same answer on Goretex.

e.g. Andy Skurka (v experienced adventurer and gear reviewer) "In the field, which is the only test that I care about, GORE-TEX and other WP/B fabrics fail, especially with long-term use and in prolonged wet conditions. While wearing them, I have gotten wet from the outside and the inside, via precipitation and perspiration, and sometimes both simultaneously" https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of-hype-tm/

But it has some fabulous marketing behind it!
snow conditions
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anybody who thinks even the best waterproof gear is impenetrable is a bit naïve. Everything has it's limits. But better gear can be a help.

It's correct on the fashion element though.

Never seen that youtube channel before and it seems well presented and they have some interesting stuff.
snow report
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
@snowdave, there's quite a good practical view if looked at more in depth isn't there.

Quite some years ago I read a long term performance review of this vs waxed cotton, which determined that when new the ptfe product marginally outperformed the cotton base for water proof performance also conditional on garment weight/convenience etc. It was based in outdoor workers North England Scotland areas. It defined it's timescale as genuine daily wear year round for a worker.
After that first year the cotton base increasingly moved ahead and with one cotton based jacket sufficient for ten years, the ptfe would need literally ten of them to exceed that performance.
They drew the conclusion that in all but the most intense demand for weight in the performance envelope, the cotton held advantage with simple proofing when using very basic products.
Any physical wear of outer fabric and the cotton base won it hands down, with heavy wear activities causing ptfe base lifing to be reduced to less than 30 full days use before parity of waterproofing was crossed to below the cotton base performance.
snow conditions
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@snowdave, that's a great blog. Impressed. Totally see the points, can't argue.

I will only note that when I wear my €7 Decathlon cagoule (100% waterproof, 0% breathable, importantly, no ventilation at all) for wandering around town in the rain, I am wet, humid and uncomfortable in about 10 minutes.

In my various "WP/B" jackets I am quite happy downhill skiing (not an endurance sport, by any stretch) for a whole day, although layering is taking care of the mild humidity collecting on the internal membrane/liner.

I did spend far too many hours in heavy rain last week in Courmayeur and frankly, nothing was going to keep anyone dry. It's that moment when the rain finds its way to run down your back despite hood over helmet that is most miserable. Don't be like me, don't ski in the rain.
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I may have got this wrong but I thought the point of gortex and the similar materials was that it was breathable when it wasn't raining and waterproof when it was. That is it provided a jacket, say, that you could wear all the time not packing and unpacking when it started and stopped raining. I cannot see how it can offer any breathability when the outer fabric is water logged.

It ammused me to read the blog https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of-hype-tm/
where the author said he was running with a gortex jacket on in 39 degrees of heat and was suprised his singlet was wet with sweat. I think at that temperature I'd be amazed if it wasn't without the jacket on and not raining.
snow conditions
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@under a new name, thanks - Skurka is a very impressive guy and speaks from real-world experience. I'm pretty sure I've seen similar public commentary from some other long-distance hikers, but his was the one that immediately sprung to mind.

If you're getting wet and humid in 10 mins in your decathlon cag, are you wearing too much underneath? I suspect the biggest difference skiing is that you've got a lot of air movement. Mass flow trumps diffusion in almost every situation.

I'm a big fan of those PU decathlon cags - if I were going out in properly wet and nasty conditions, I happily take the cag vs a £200 WP/B jacket.

I don't recall seeing a single goretex jacket (or, indeed, any goretex kit) in use on long US thru-hikes, but I saw a lot of basic PU jackets.

@JohnE 39F = 4C. Skurka writes for a US audience mainly.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Never understood why any runner would wear something waterproof. You don't want to/need to stay dry while running.
latest report
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@snowdave, hah hah yes quite possibly over layered.
latest report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
johnE wrote:
I may have got this wrong but I thought the point of gortex and the similar materials was that it was breathable when it wasn't raining and waterproof when it was. That is it provided a jacket, say, that you could wear all the time not packing and unpacking when it started and stopped raining.

I don't think the wearing all the time is particularly relevant. It's simply that wearing a rain protector that is not breathable will allow/encourage a build up of sweat that can not be released. If it's dry you can just wear appropriate warmth clothing. Which actually can also have the same issue - I have a down jacket that if I used for a hike that if quite strenuous will result in a clamminess.
snow report
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@johnE, the outer fabric is not supposed to get waterlogged because, as you say, the fabric stops being breathable. That’s why goretex and similar jackets have DWR which causes water to bead up and run off rather than be absorbed by the fabric.

If your goretex jacket is wetting out quickly you need the refresh the DWR.

I found that YouTube post in the OP interesting. I think it’s definitely worth asking yourself whether you really need the properties that goretex offers. I’ve done a lot of skiing/ski touring in a fleece backed soft shell recently. It is not fully waterproof but it certainly offers more comfort in a wide range of conditions than goretex. I’ve got it wrong a couple of times and found myself wearing that in quite wet/snowy conditions. It wasn’t the end of the world by any means

I also recently bought a parka made from G1000 with wool insulation. Not really for technical use but it’s seriously warm and comfortable and wins on sustainability (over down of manmade insulation) hands down
latest report
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I ride motorbikes all year round. Wax cotton was useless when I tried it, 30-odd years ago and it was blooming expensive then. Gore-tex is a vast improvement in my opinion, but not infallible. @Arno, mentioned above that if an item starts to leak then wash/reproof which is the thing to do. The DWR is the key.

As for skiing, the DWR is the thing here too, along with breathability. I use Nik Wax tech wash and the wash in reproofer after and find if I only do one garment at a time it's just like new, even for my bike gear. I doubt most of us need gore-tex at all when we're skiing/boarding.

The main thing about Gore-tex as I understand it is that it comes with a lifetime guarantee. I've never tried to claim on this though, I always manage to fall off the bike before the item becomes unusable! I have a mate who did the marathon des sables and claimed I think 3 times before the event because he was out in the fields in all weathers. Every time they replaced the shoes FOC.
ski holidays
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Gore-tex announced just last month that they're withdrawing shakedry (used in some lightweight kit) due to its PFC content. Other products will probably follow. No doubt they've got alternatives in the pipeline.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pfc-bans-are-going-to-change-the-face-of-all-waterproof-garments/
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I commuted for about 5 or 6 years in all weathers with a Carradice Camper saddlebag made of what they call cotton duck material.

Never a leak, nothing got wet - ever.

I couldnt be bothered with waterproof clothing when I cycled a lot (skins waterproof, innit......), although I did have one of those cheapo decathlon poly bags that got used once or twice.

Theres a company called Kuhl which does outdoors wear of the same tightly woven material, I saw some last week and it looks like nice gear - no idea what it will do irl though.
snow conditions
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@gixxerniknik, I used to have a belstaff jacket for motorcycling. I agree it was useless and always filthy. I then moved onto a plastic one piece for when it rained.

I am always sceptical of lifetime guarentees. What lifetime are they talking about?
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
johnE wrote:


It ammused me to read the blog https://andrewskurka.com/why-im-hard-on-gore-tex-the-king-of-hype-tm/
where the author said he was running with a gortex jacket on in 39 degrees of heat and was suprised his singlet was wet with sweat. I think at that temperature I'd be amazed if it wasn't without the jacket on and not raining.


It's 'merican for goodness sake!

= About 4°c
ski holidays
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
I've said so many times on here goretex simply isn't necessary for 99% of people and they could spend a fraction of the cost and have a perfectly adequate jacket.

However, to play devils advocate a bit:

- no waterproof jacket is really breathable. If you plan to do anything remotely physically strenuous in one pit zips are essential.
- As the video points out companies can't just buy goretex material. Them and their designs have to be approved by goretex. This has created a kind of "seal of approval". For somebody without any knowledge buying a goretex jacket they know it is going to be of a certain standard.
- Its still arguably the best material in terms of waterproof to breathability. Although I'd agree it's overhyped in that it's performance is not really that different to jackets with lower specs. I don't really blame goretex for that though, the hype has mostly been created by brands and people. Look at threads on clothing on here and plenty of people automatically advise for goretex regardless of what the person's demands even are
snow conditions
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@snowdave, that's an article from 2015!! I am a Goretex fan, I was running last week (and again tonight) in a shakedry top, once the rain had stopped I took it off last week, was bone dry inside. Plenty of folks in my local cycling club regularly use (commute in all weathers) and like shakedry jackets.

but if you over layer underneath and also don't keep the Goretex clean you will sweat IMHO.
snow conditions
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
@kitenski, yep, and not much has changed since. (Most) Goretex is still a PTFE membrane with a PU layer and a face fabric.

Skurka is observing the basic challenges with all WP/B garments which are largely a combination of physics and physiology. He takes particular issue with Goretex, because the marketing is so at odds with the reality. Eg showing pictures of people trail running and claiming "guaranteed to keep you dry" when we know you're guaranteed to be soaked at the end.

If you're warm, you'll sweat regardless of what shell you have or how clean it is. Prince Andrew excepted, of course Happy
ski holidays
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@snowdave, do gore-tex do pizza restaurants?
snow report
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@under a new name, I'm not sure we should go there. Then again, I'm not sure Andy ever went there either Happy
snow report
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@snowdave, aye, probs not.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@under a new name, Surely its gore-Tex-Mex?
ski holidays
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@snowdave, Hmm, I think things have improved, albeit nothing revolutionary ie fabrics are lighter, shakedry wasn't around in 2015 (and won't be around in 2023 once current stocks have gone) but thats still using a membrane just trying to prevent rain staying on the garment!

lol at prince andrew, perhaps he's missing a revenue opportunity doing some advertising
latest report
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Aren't the most discerning skiers dressed in tweeds...... Madeye-Smiley
ski holidays



Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy