 Poster: A snowHead
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| clarky999 wrote: |
I can only speak for Tyrol, and again I agree that snowfall has been significantly less than normal, but as well as that Christmas storm we had a lot of snow in November (especially in the big southerly valleys) and skiing to the valley at all my local resorts (apart from Nordkette) since then; plus snow in mid Dec, locally 20-40cm in early Jan, and 20-30cms last weekend. Could be much worse. |
Fair enough. Tyrol spans pretty far N&S of the main ridge. I didn't find anything like you mentioned for accumulations in early Jan or last weekend. Seems pretty generous. It was probably localized like you say. Current snow depth at 1000m near the Germany-Austria border is something like 5cm! Any slope - regionally - that gets direct sunshine will suffer over the next few days.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@altaski8, early Jan the 40cms was localised pretty much just to Nordkette (and Karwendl); other resorts yes much less (10-20 maybe). Last weekend >20cms seems pretty widespread based on social media and friends' reports from Arlberg to Zillertal (for those who know where to look)*, and what I skied at the weekend in Seefeld. But local knowledge has definitely been important in getting the goods.
*Actually even further judging by what kooky and co. were skiing in (I assume?) Ski Amade today!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think this season is "interesting" so far, not a disaster, the colder air temps have "saved" the snow from the two big dumps in Nov and Xmas, which means piste skiing has been pretty good, and if you follow a few guides they were still finding cold winter snow 3 weeks after the Xmas snow.
Bad seasons (IMHO) have been when the early dumps have been followed up with a significant warm spell which has stripped the snow or created classic spring conditions of thaw/freeze in Jan!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@altaski8, I’ve skied for nearly 50 years ... doesn’t make my opinion more or less valid ...
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| Pyremaniac wrote: |
Down here not every season is a great one, but we haven't had a awful one for more than a decade now |
Last year was pretty bad! Not even the start of March delivered the usual abundance. The year before was amazing in the Pyrenees though, weather is unpredictable....
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @altaski8, I’ve skied for nearly 50 years ... doesn’t make my opinion more or less valid ... |
Of course it does. If your ski experience was relatively limited, then you would not have a very large sample size from which to generate a reliable opinion.
Opinions aside, December and January have been above average temperature-wise throughout the Alps and precipitation has been average to below average, depending on location. Total snow accumulation, depth, and number of days with snowfall are also below average almost everywhere. Those factors characterize a poor winter ski season. I think maybe people emotionally process it in a more positive light because there has been a good deal of sunshine, which is particularly valued in this part of the world. Powder skiing is also less preferred compared to racing/carving on this continent compared to North America for example.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 21-01-20 23:24; edited 1 time in total
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| mrvinegar wrote: |
| Pyremaniac wrote: |
Down here not every season is a great one, but we haven't had a awful one for more than a decade now |
Last year was pretty bad! Not even the start of March delivered the usual abundance. The year before was amazing in the Pyrenees though, weather is unpredictable.... |
It wasn't great, for sure. But it wasn't awful; awful is when there's little or no piste skiing available. Last year there was plenty. Off-piste was largely a non-starter, however.
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Still not a lot to be excited about on the 18z GFS. Maybe a glancing blow from a front on the 28/29th, which could still trend better. Then it gets kinda ugly. I'm looking at the first week in February for a possible change. Indices hint at something slightly more favorable, but it's too far out to use the operational charts.
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@altaski8, just a quick comment on your claims of a poor season (so far). I think it depends on whether you're looking at it from the point of view of a piste skier, an off piste skier, or the lift company (and probably others). I think piste skiers will largely be happy with the season so far, unless they visited a really, really low resort or one in the outlying ranges (Massif Central, Vosges etc.). To be fair you have touched on this point in your comment at 22.22. Lift companies will largely also be happy, because good weather increases visitor numbers, reduces lift closures and stabilises the snowpack. As for off piste - yes, I'd be willing to agree that it's been a below average season so far from this point of view.
As for the stats - again, I'm not sure that a low "number of days with snowfall" would really characterise a poor ski season, for piste skiers. Above average temperatures also aren't necessarily a problem if accompanied by low humidity and dry weather - snowmelt remains slow under these conditions during midwinter. Clear weather also means lower nighttime temperatures; for example, conditions on piste could improve over a week thanks to snowmaking as long as it was -3C at night, even if it was +5C during the day. And depth for piste skiers isn't important either, as long as it's enough to cover the pistes.
The perfect winter for the majority of European skiers (i.e. piste skiers) - and therefore lift companies too - would be big pre-season / pre-Xmas snowfalls to put down a base, followed by plenty of settled weather, occasional topups and a lack of storms. And actually, that's not miles away from what's happened this (Alpine) season so far. I'm not saying 2019/20 is a perfect season by any means, but there are lots of positives.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Good post denfinella.
Piste skiers don't need much except sunshine and alcohol. Unless it's precipitating or too warm to make snow, conditions are always good. But European resorts tend to have as many lifts as trails and few mogul runs to escape to when the trails get icy after 11am or so. Off- or side-piste is critical to keep things interesting, especially for those of us who eat and drink mostly after the lifts close.
Before this past weekend's snow showers there was a lot of green and brown below 1200m in Germany, Austria, and northern Italy. If we get a warm, rainy period next week, that's not going to set up well for the peak season.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Pretty perfect piste conditions today.
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@altaski8, I agree with your last paragraph. A fair bit of the low level cover around the edges of the Alps is purely cosmetic - i.e. it looks better than it is and it would be fragile to prolonged rain (which fortunately hasn't been a feature this January).
Also, low resorts without comprehensive snowmaking will certainly need some heavy natural snowfall in the next month to ensure a base to last them through the latter part of the season. Surely it will snow properly sometime in the next month (but, we thought that at Christmas!). But... I don't think it's a particularly unusual position for these sort of resorts to be in... Thus is life for Morzine et al.
I'm not convinced about "icy runs after 11am" though. Ice really only follows on from the overnight refreezing of afternoon slush (or rain), which is rare at this time of year. Hard pack is more likely, which personally I'm quite happy skiing on.
P.S. I'm off to the Alps on Saturday, so if it turns out to be icy after all, I'll eat my words! 
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You know it makes sense.
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@denfinella,
| Quote: |
piste skiers will largely be happy with the season so far
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Yes, they are delighted, or at least, our clients are.
It has not been a dreadful season so far.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just back from a week in Champagny and had an awesome time. Piste conditions were fantastic, and even had a play in some powder on Friday when it snowed.
Plenty of time for some more dumps before my next trip.
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Poster: A snowHead
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No, it has been a far from dreadful season so far, as UANN points out, but it has been a fair bit less precipitous, a bit warmer & far more settled than usual....
That would be fine, if there were multiple big bellies of cold fronts trooping over me here in Ireland at the mo, or better still ~500 KMs further north over Scotland, moving down SE over ze Alpes, like we normally get this time of year, when there are typically weekly dumps of snow with each passing cold front.
Alas, that is not the case this year, cos as I understand it, (& I ain't no weather expert) the jet stream has moved Northwards, the polar vortex appears to be staying stum & in tact, and Alpine weather is getting dominated by blocking dry highs from ~ the South.
This has the rather dispiriting result of giving us very low snowfall for the past month, but worse, again as I understand it, low medium term prospects of more snowfall which means the middle part of this season ain't looking great. (Afaik)
E.g. I'm off to Val D'Is on Friday, I'll be leaving my fat skis behind, (in sunshine in Ireland), cos there's not much point in packing them, and I'll be skiing ~month old snow on piste and skinning trails as a way of enjoying the mountain, & getting out on ze Alpes.
There's nothing wrong with this for piste skiers really, the pistes should be fine, but for off piste, powder seekers like moi, it's a big adjustment, tbh. E.g. I can see myself trying dog sledding, and whatever else the mountain may have to offer (resort days, on piste safaris, etc, etc).
A dry spell mid season is not disastrous by any means, but imho, we badly need it to get colder, more unsettled and for the cold fronts to reestablish themselves from the West.
Weather gurus: my question for ye is what is the likelihood of this happening this season say?!?
P.s. there's a 64m dollar question for you  ))
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 22-01-20 9:22; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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All good stuff, but as my skiing has yet to happen, I’m more into the ‘outlook’ side of the thread. GFS still showing some decent precipitation end Jan, first week in March. Salzburgerland to Zermatt.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@horgand, also heading to val d next week! Actually you might want to bring your wide skis, ecm is suggesting something that looks quite major for the end of next week right now!
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Aagh, i know its far out but it looks like a 1-meter dump 9 days out right now! Maybe we chose the wrong week mate! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Be vigilant if you do find some off piste to ski, with the recent and upcoming snowfall after a long period of fine weather things are a bit treacherous - in the Belledonne we've had a series of avalanches, none life threatening as there isn't enough snow but a lot of kit waiting for the thaw to be recovered. There is a similar "old snow problem" in the Queyras. Some of the avalanches have been in fairly unusual spots (although all 30 degree plus slopes) where those caught had let their guard down.
http://pistehors.com/dbCNGG8ByuHDGsGAyHG6/old-snow-persistent-weak-layers-and-guided-groups
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Quick season summary down South.
Tremendous start before the lifts opened, numerous ski tour sorties skiing on average boot deep cold light powder.
Those snow-falls comprise 80% of the base we have now.
First couple of weeks of the lift-serviced season very good, then Xmas / New Year just too damn busy on the slopes and many seasonaires opted for a first lift strategy and back down by 11:30.
Pistes were in superb condition, and have remained as such and there has been glorious piste skiing all January so far and looks set to be like that till the end of the month with only the occasional dribble.
What I found most disconcerting given the whole "Green" thing was that the snow cannon were still blasting even on the day when we had nigh on 80cms in the valley, and then there were the subsequently controlled avalanches that were massive nearly taking out a chair lift here so we met up with the Chief of Piste control.
The reason for the cannon is that the artificial snow, unlike natural, will last much longer due to being more compact (less air to move in between the crystals etc) so is denser and will last well into the season at lower alititudes unlike natural snow, hence by Easter you see the pistes as strips of snow coming back down into resort whilst all around is turning green.
Yes the off-piste here is pretty rough, but that's more to do with the wind, as mates Courmayer Entreves way have not had the wind and have been riding powder all January.
That said yesterday we ski toured in another valley (see Serre thread) and had a lovely sweet cold powder, so good off-piste is there if you're prepared to earn your turns and sniff it out.
And then there's XC and conditions for that have been and are excellent, so much so that I'm shortly shelling out for a lesson in an hour or so to hopefully improve technique.
Should also add that we did have a couple of days of excellent Spring snow ski touring, but temps have since remained stubbornly cold hence we still have a lot of snow down to the valley.
But once the snow starts cooking we should have, fingers crossed, some great Spring ski touring conditions.
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davidof, that concerns me a bit. What needs to happen weather-wise to stabilise the off-piste snow, if we do get a decent dump? Or, perhaps more pertinently, what can one do to minimise the risk of old snow avalanche problems, in terms of terrain selection, etc.?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| altaski8 wrote: |
Opinions aside, December and January have been above average temperature-wise throughout the Alps and precipitation has been average to below average, depending on location. Total snow accumulation, depth, and number of days with snowfall are also below average almost everywhere. |
All true, though I'm not sure the average temps really tell the true story. We haven't had any of the proper -20°C deep midwinter cold days you'd expect in January. However it's been consistently freezing here in the valley, with none of the really warm episodes, föhn, or rain-to-2000m events that haven't exactly been uncommon the last few seasons. So warmer than average but without the real warmth that does the damage.
We haven't had any proper dumps or really deep days since November though.
| altaski8 wrote: |
| I think maybe people emotionally process it in a more positive light because there has been a good deal of sunshine, which is particularly valued in this part of the world. Powder skiing is also less preferred compared to racing/carving on this continent compared to North America for example. |
Not around here, at least in my circles.
Couple of examples from the last days (and friends are still getting it while I'm here in the office this morning):
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7jRdhEFMlp
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7jKsGEJaBD
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 22-01-20 11:36; edited 2 times in total
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The 0z ECM and 06z GFS are again unimpressive with the front around the 28th/29th. I still think that could trend a little bit better with a sharper ridge/trof combo. It would probably favor Switzerland and the northern French Alps if it materialized.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think there's an element of location/altitude effecting the differing opinions.
Looking at parts of the French Alps, a lot of the early dumps in Nov/Dec were above 1700m, so the higher slopes are in relatively good condition as the temperatures at those heights have stayed cold. In La Plagne slopes above 1800m are as good as they were last year.
However below 1600m the slopes are suffering a bit as a lot of the early dumps arrived as rain. Last year we could ski all the way back to Champagny, this year those runs were closed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A good graph to see would be the level of purchase / use of snow machines over the past 30 years. Suspect seeing and skiing snowy pistes despite no fresh snowfall may skew our views.
Suddeutchsche zeitung had a front page special couple of weeks ago, 3 pages inside, on skiing in the green. My german wasn't up to reading it unfortunately.
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[quote="altaski8"]
| clarky999 wrote: |
I didn't find anything like you mentioned for accumulations in early Jan or last weekend. Seems pretty generous. |
I skied fieberbrunn early Jan, I suspect the fall Clarky999 is talking about. Resort and bergfex reported only 10cm fresh, yet I skied 2 days off piste without touching the bottom layer, so even the official values may have to be treated with a pinch of salt. I accept they're the only empirical you can work with but problems in measuring snow fall / localized measuring stations may have to be factored in.
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You know it makes sense.
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The forecast I'm looking at (Meteogroup), is consistently showing a change (Les Arcs) around Tues 28th, with snow falling as far as the forecast goes (Fri).
It gives a freezing level of around 2700 (Thur/Fri next week) giving rain below that...but with accumulations of 25 cm over the period, at altitude.
Could all be wrong, but it gives hope for early Feb.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 22-01-20 16:48; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| J2R wrote: |
| davidof, that concerns me a bit. What needs to happen weather-wise to stabilise the off-piste snow, if we do get a decent dump? Or, perhaps more pertinently, what can one do to minimise the risk of old snow avalanche problems, in terms of terrain selection, etc.? |
Remember that old snow / deeply buried weak layers generally manifests itself in rare but big slides sometimes in unusual spots or bigger than expected.
Best bet is to look carefully at the bulletin for things like "altschnee" or as in Sunday's bulletin for the Queyras "vieille neige sans cohésion" (old snow with no cohesion). In this case beware of remote triggering - either from below or on a ridge (I have a great photo somewhere where the ridge has half gone in a slide and remember group spacing when skiing with others. Don't be overconfident in your airbag if you have one. Generally deeply buried weak layers stick around to the thaw but can be bridged by a deep snowfall which means fewer trigger points on a slope, in this case planning your descent to avoid places where the snowpack is thinner (roll overs, rocks etc).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks, davidof. Useful article you provided, too. Looks like avoiding slopes of more than 30 degrees is (as ever) paramount, as well as keeping away from north facing, unskied slopes. So, that kind of works against finding nice stashes of powder, but never mind!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If I'm reading the squiggles right, it seems like there is still a significant degree of uncertainty for NFA from 24th onwards (apart from 27-29 which looks certain to be some prime time sun terrace weather). What's the dealio?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@horgand, errr, I was skiing what had been really nice spring snow today (we were too late due too much climbing) so I wouldn't write the off piste off completely.
(If you really are powder chasing surely you should be looking at Japan or Canada... ? )
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@under a new name, I tried the Japan/Canada suggestion two pages ago, it didn't fly! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Looking at the ensembles the period from 28/29 January looks like ushering a period of increased uncertainty and potential instability. As the jet roars in the possibility of large amounts of precipitation increases, but this stormy weather could be accompanied by a higher snow line. Buckle in.
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What do we need to look out for?
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@FIRSTOFTHEGIANTS, Storms coming in from the west. Find your waterproofs and pray the temperatures drop a bit but the precipitation still comes!
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@leggyblonde, +1
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This explains the snow forecast for glencoe!
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@scotspikey, tell me more
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