 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No mention of work permit requirements for non-EU applicants. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Mr.Egg, Not for employers. If you employ people you must ensure that they are legally allowed to work, that applies as much in France, Switzerland and Austria as it does in the UK.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| @Mr.Egg, Not for employers. If you employ people you must ensure that they are legally allowed to work, that applies as much in France, Switzerland and Austria as it does in the UK. |
i couldnt care about the rules. Thats for the company who are offering these positions.
Was just sharing an email newsletter.
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| stanton wrote: |
| https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/n-of-overstaying-in-schengen-area/ |
link is dead. What do they do? throw you in the gas chambers?
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The Fine for Employers can be unlimited but is typically between €10000-€20000.
2nd offence is Off the Scale!!
Not many take that risk nowadays.
Individual Employee fines/etc depends on each EU & EEA country rules but deportation is distinctly possible and no re-entry for a period of years.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've noticed an increasing number of job ads here with the text 'EU citizens only'. Does it mean that UK ex-pats already living and working in the EU after Brexit will face greater difficulties if they wish to change jobs, even if they already have work permits? Or are EU-employers merely trying to dissuade those who do not already have work permits from applying for jobs?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@stanton, UK citizens won't be subject to Schengen visa applications after Brexit, but they will be subject to the 90 days in a rolling 180 day period tourist entry restrictions and they will not be permitted access to the labour market without the appropriate work permit. That's what we were told by the Embassy at one of the outreach events.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stanton wrote: |
| https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/consequences-of-overstaying-in-schengen-area/ |
Why you babbling on about visa?
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| @stanton, UK citizens won't be subject to Schengen visa applications after Brexit, but they will be subject to the 90 days in a rolling 180 day period tourist entry restrictions and they will not be permitted access to the labour market without the appropriate work permit. That's what we were told by the Embassy at one of the outreach events. |
Yes UK citizens will be treated like 3rd Country citizens and will require a Work Permit ....
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You know it makes sense.
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| I've noticed an increasing number of job ads here with the text 'EU citizens only'. Does it mean that UK ex-pats already living and working in the EU after Brexit will face greater difficulties if they wish to change jobs, even if they already have work permits? Or are EU-employers merely trying to dissuade those who do not already have work permits from applying for jobs? |
I suspect it'll depend on whether the ex-pats have secured their French (or other EU Country) residency at which point they become an EU Citizen/Resident even though they're still a UK National.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stanton wrote: |
| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| @stanton, UK citizens won't be subject to Schengen visa applications after Brexit, but they will be subject to the 90 days in a rolling 180 day period tourist entry restrictions and they will not be permitted access to the labour market without the appropriate work permit. That's what we were told by the Embassy at one of the outreach events. |
Yes UK citizens will be treated like 3rd Country citizens and will require a Work Permit .... |
so not a visa then
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Mr.Egg, Work Permits are much more difficult to obtain..
Many restictions apply
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The one thing we know for sure is that we dont know what is going to happen!
As someone who runs a business in Germany and as a company that employs freelance individuals I do have some knowledge of the rules around employment. All EEA citizens (of which the EU is a subset) have the right to reside and work in other EEA countries (there are some restrictions in Switzerland). However almost all non EEA citizens have to apply for a work permit, though a family member of an EU citizen has the right to work in the country they reside in. With some limited exceptions (basically high paid corporate) there is no such thing as an EU wide work permit, so having a work permit for Germany does not allow you to work in Austria. Each country has its own rules and regs for non EU citizens.
In the event the UK leaves with no deal at the end of October then any UK citizens wishing to work in France will have to apply for a French work permit, in Austria for an Austrian one etc. Some countries may make exceptions for existing long term residents but that does seem very variable and whether that would apply outside the country of residence is open to some considerable doubt.
From a business perspective we are not making any commitments to our existing UK freelancers beyond 31.10.19 until we can be certain that it will be legal to employ them. Any other business which does otherwise is risking, at best a lot of bureaucratic grief and at worst heavy fines.
This has nothing to do with Schengen, tourist visas etc.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@munich_irish, #brexitdividend
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@munich_irish,
Yes indeed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@munich_irish, precisely. I can't help but think that companies who employ seasonnaires in the EU are going to favour EU applicants over British applicants, to keep paperwork and bureaucracy down.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
The one thing we know for sure is that we dont know what is going to happen!
As someone who runs a business in Germany and as a company that employs freelance individuals I do have some knowledge of the rules around employment. |
If dont 'employ' freelancers. You outsource the work to freelancers to do. Its a business transaction.
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Different employers clearly have different views on how this will play out.
Mrs WoC has already been offered a job with the ESF again from Dec - April.
We are UK citizens, and do not have Permanent Carte de Séjour or French citizenship.
Bizarrely her employer for the Summer will only run the contract up to the expiry of the temporary Carte de Séjour, even though currently there is no requirement to have one.
Go figure 
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Need a residence permit (that permits work) for the country you intend to work in *and* a visa. One gives you permission to live and work, the other permission to cross the border control for that country or Schengen if it is a Schengen country. The visa should get granted with the permit with the same validity period.
Assuming we leave of course. I believe the same is also true if we leave, but with May's deal up to 12/2020, but there the host country is "obliged" to give you the residence/work permit and visa for "free" up to that date.
We have clauses in our contracts with UK companies, so that we can terminate them instantly at no cost to us, where normally there might be a buy-out clause. But then EC pays us to subcontract to them.
I did wonder if there might be some funny shenanigans going on where UK staff might be contracted to work for a UK company, but then be sent on a "business trip" to the French Alps. No chance of working a season though. You'd have to vacate the Schengen area totally within 90 days, and not return for some time. And would have to be careful on how you pick a summer trip to Benidorm to make sure that doesn't affect ability to get close to that 90 day limit. Some might try it, but I doubt the local authorities will stand for that for too long.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@WindOfChange, yeah, go figure, pretty typical of French administration.
Mrs U is French, we are now FR resident, managed not to get FR passport thru massively simplified non-res process while Swiss res, down to a 6 month delay in having Swiss French marriage cert translated into, err, French, went to Annecy twice to lodge pds demand, visit 1, oh it’s automatic, but this particular electricity bill is missing the important comma here, see, visit 2, fvck off till after brexit.
Oh. Great. Thanks. That’s why I wanted a Swiss passport.
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@Mr.Egg, "Contract individuals to construct an exhibition stand at Fira Barcelona", it makes no odds how we describe them if the individuals cannot legally work at the exhibition grounds in Barcelona whatever the contractual relationship is between our company and the individual. Basically there is no doubt that non EEA citizens are unable to work (how ever you want to define that) in EEA countries without a relevant work permit. That is the situation at the moment and whatever the UK decides to do will not change that.
More generally I would assume that any "employment" contract would have a clause allowing the immediate termination of the contract in the event of the person being employed or contracted no longer being able to legally work.
There many individuals and companies who are simply keeping their fingers crossed / sticking their heads in the sand as to what is going to happen. That might end up being the right approach but not sure it is sensible at all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| marcellus wrote: |
| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| I've noticed an increasing number of job ads here with the text 'EU citizens only'. Does it mean that UK ex-pats already living and working in the EU after Brexit will face greater difficulties if they wish to change jobs, even if they already have work permits? Or are EU-employers merely trying to dissuade those who do not already have work permits from applying for jobs? |
I suspect it'll depend on whether the ex-pats have secured their French (or other EU Country) residency at which point they become an EU Citizen/Resident even though they're still a UK National. |
As it stands even securing a French residency would NOT make someone an EU citizen, just an legal alien resident in France. This will usually give them the right to live, travel and work in France, but critically NOT in the rest of the EU (like I said at the start, as it stands - this could change based on any EU/UK deal or agreements between different EU countries but currently that's the case). In terms of seasonare jobs that would currently cause issues for people like transfer drivers who cross national borders and also make life more complicated for larger TOs (if someone falls ill in Austria you can just swap someone from a role in France to cover them - if they are an EU citizen, but not if they are a UK national with French residency and no Austrian work permit, or a UK citizen with only a French work permit). If you're a large TO recruiting EU citizens only minimises bureaucracy and maximises flexibility, both of which minimise costs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I expect the EU Blue Card seasonal workers scheme will function for British citizens seeking seasonnaire work after Brexit:
https://www.eu-bluecard.com/seasonal-workers-directive/
However this clause might prove interesting... Proof that your salary exceeds the average in the hosting state by 1.5 times or 1.2 times for professions in shortage.
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You know it makes sense.
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@munich_irish,
If you offer a freelancer work, then it is the freelancers problem to be legal & yours to check they are legal.
Point is, you are not employing them. I dont employ a taxi driver to give me a lift home from the pub.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Mr.Egg, What does the UK or US do with illegal workers in the UK or US?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stanton wrote: |
| @Mr.Egg, What does the UK or US do with illegal workers in the UK or US? |
UK does not have the resources to do anything
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Mr.Egg, You really are a wind up merchant that knows what you are saying or someone that is as thick as 5hit. In Germany, if you do what you advocate then the next time you enter Germany you will be arrested. The limit is indefinite.
We even have a Swiss office at out expense just for this.
You cant have a one company contract and NOT be deemed to be working for that company unless you are pretending.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
@Mr.Egg, You really are a wind up merchant that knows what you are saying or someone that is as thick as 5hit. In Germany, if you do what you advocate then the next time you enter Germany you will be arrested. The limit is indefinite.
We even have a Swiss office at out expense just for this.
You cant have a one company contract and NOT be deemed to be working for that company unless you are pretending. |
you dont employ freelances, so maybe you need to re-read the thread & get a grasp on it.
Freelancers work for themselves otherwise they are employees.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Mr.Egg, it works differently in the EU. If you are a self-employed contractor and you are given a contract to work for one company for a certain length of time, you are deemed to be employed, therefore all legal rules for employees are observed, such as work permits, sick pay, holiday pay, pension contributions, etc.
If you are self employed and work for several different companies, then you need to be a registered business, employed by that business, and the business pays your health insurance, social insurance, pension contributions, etc.
I looked into this, as I considered being self employed here in Austria, but I soon dismissed the idea when I saw the costs involved.
I think the UK has opted out of some of the EU workers rights directives, which has allowed the so-called 'gig' economy to develop.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
| @Mr.Egg, it works differently in the EU. |
UK is in the EU - but if you are a self employed contractor, then of course you are employed
Ive done freelance for many years. It is my responsibility to make sure I am legal, have the necessary insurances, etc.
The company offering me a gig has the responsibility to do due diligence, they are not legally responsible for me. Equally they are not responsible to pay tax on my earnings or contribute directly to a pension for me.
That is because I am not employed by them.
Lots of trades work this way in being outsourced. Go to a building site & you will find tons of sub-contractors there. Buy a kitchen & chances are if you choose their fitting option, then the fitter will not be directly employed by that company.
It can be financially rewarding, but equally you are always looking over your shoulder for when that piece of work finishes to line up something else or take some time off. It suited my single lifestyle at the time. I know people who still do it & only work 6 months of the year.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Mr.Egg, yes I understand how it works in the UK. I have briefly worked there freelance myself. When I emigrated here I realise it is a bit different, so I did not pursue being self employed here.
I can see lots of positives to the gig economy for employers, but the only positive I can see for the contractor is flexibility.
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@Mr.Egg, A friend is self employed and acting as a freelancer for a German company. He must represent more than one company or he is deemed to be working for the primary company and therefore subject to all benefits and all taxes. It doesn't matter if he is only working in the UK.
@queenie pretty please, Is correct.
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| GlasgowCyclops wrote: |
@Mr.Egg, A friend is self employed and acting as a freelancer for a German company. He must represent more than one company or he is deemed to be working for the primary company and therefore subject to all benefits and all taxes. It doesn't matter if he is only working in the UK.
@queenie pretty please, Is correct. |
different sectors have different rules in the UK
In the UK we have IR35 scope for example. (which sounds similar to your german example)
There is also the amount of people employed in the Gig economy as disguised employees, which is more for the hirer to get around labour laws. Uber drivers being an example.
Different ways of freelancing suit people differently.
Its more complicated than you think, as freelancers who want to be freelancers dont want to caught up in IR35 & dont want to be employed.
Freelancers who are forced into it via the gig economy just want a normal job with all the employee benefits.
So there are differences.
Take a Kitchen fitter, that person may find their own work via local adverts & sell kitchens from Trade specialist like Howdens or Travis Perkins, while also being sub contracted to bigger firms like Ikea or B&Q, etc.
IMO this is a freelancer, as he can pick & choose his work. As he is not tied to a single root for work.
Compare that to someone delivering parcels for Amazon, where there is no guarantee of work & technically are self employed. Yet they need to be available to work or risk losing the delivery round.
This IMO is a disguised employee. Amazon are benefiting by not having to pay & treat the person as an employee.
3rd example is an IT contractor - They will have a fixed term contract & deliver a service to only the one client at a time (unless agreed otherwise), under direction from the client. This falls within IR35
Hence IT Contractors will usually make sure they are doing some other work at the same time to prove they are not a disguised employee.
Or maybe somesort of journalist who has a newspaper column, but works as freelance so they have the time & no commitments so they can write a book or whatever, or do the after dinner speech circuits, copywriter, even a translator, etc.
So as you can see, we have people who want to be self employed seen as disguised employees & people who are disguised employees seen as self employed
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 28-06-19 8:15; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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..... anyway, there is already a thread about employment law once we leave the EU.....
This original post was for anyone who is looking for seasonal work, as it was in their newsletter email I subscribe to.
I am sure anyone looking for seasonal work are probably already aware of any legal requirements they must adhere to.
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Don't feed the troll
He's just a farage apologist arch no-deal brexshitteer that's trying to prove that after no-deal brexshit Brits will be able to work exactly like they have been. Which is total bullshine. They will be able to live and work in EU, but will need a residence permit and visa which allows that longer stay and to do paid work (in that single country, not "the EU").
Cos if brits can work in "the EU" after no-deal just like they have, then "EU citizens" would be able to do the same in UK. Which would make brexshit a complete and utter pointless waste of time (which it is, but that's for the othre thread). And all that nonsense where existing EU citizens in UK are having to register as long term resident to be granted free stay "forever" would also be nonsense.
Good luck using a wangle like being a freelancer rather than direct employed worker, with no residence permit and no visa to work there for a whole season (assuming we leave before the season). You're going to have to do some explaining when you go thru the Schengen exit check, explaining why you've overstayed, and will probably have to prove that you were not working or otherwise in violation of the basic 90 day visitor visa (or visa free travel for nationalities permitted to travel visa free).
Judging by his history and maths skills on the other thread, he'll be doing GCSE options next year.
I'm a contractor, working for what was the German subsidiary of a UK company (so a German company), contracting to an organisation funded by member states and also the European Commission. I get the perks and restrictions of being an employee of both the one that does my payroll and the one for which I do work.
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FAQ
