To be fair, I once went to Vail/Breckenridge/Beaver Creek & was completely underwhelmed by the skiing, scenery, food, atmosphere etc. And to cap it all, it was full of Americans!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
personally I would avoid Chamonix, while the mountains and skiing is great the town doesn't really do it for me and the bus transfers to the different areas gets annoying. For the money and going on a 'big EU' trip there are much better resorts you ought to check out first. Namely:
Zermatt (IMO arguably Europe's best all-round resort)
Verbier
St Anton
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@LaForet, Gosh .. you stayed up late to put all that info together.
It looks like you probably have somewhere to live in Nendaz?
The back door to Verbier, must be great.
Lirong
I think your teenagers would probably prefer the raucous apres ski of St Anton rather than the exclusivity of Lech and you'll be skiing both on the same pass, I'm still not sure why your not so keen on Austria. But the atmosphere is more fun than France. (for some reason the French seem to go to bed at 8pm)
Fly via Zurich
If you can afford it, Zermatt is probably the place. You have access to Cervinia when the weather is good. Its quite a long transfer though, the last hour is by narrow gauge railway. But your luggage will be transported directly to your hotel from Geneva Airport.
If you want it a bit shorter, then Verbier is the place, and you may bump into @LaForet there.
Its Geneva Airport for the French Resorts as well, but its 3.5 hours (on a bus or Taxi) to the high spots like Val d'Isere/Tignes or the Three valleys area of Courchevel, Méribel and Val Thorens
These French resorts are wonderful but your not going to get the atmosphere of Austria.
I'd like to go to some eastern Swiss resorts such as St Moritz & Davos, but I cant afford it
To be fair, I once went to Vail/Breckenridge/Beaver Creek & was completely underwhelmed by the skiing, scenery, food, atmosphere etc. And to cap it all, it was full of Americans!
Bloody hell!
So you aren't happy with immaculately groomed runs, bumps, steeps, super steeps or glade skiing ?
What type of skiing do you like?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
"If you can afford it, Zermatt is probably the place."
The budget is up to $7k for the week so I can't see affordability being a problem
@Bergmeister, the answer is probably too rude to post. I was just totally underwhelmed by the whole American thing. We went because flights were cheap following 11/9 but I prefer the whole European experience. The food on the mountain is a massive part of a ski holiday as well as the quality of the skiing, both of which were pretty ordinary in Vail.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@mountainaddict
Well, I can speak about french resorts :
Transfer : It will of course depend on your final airport. If you want something close to the airport you must land in Geneva, or Lyon with a connecting fight.
Crowed : French resorts are usually not crowded at this time of the year.
Snow : At this time of the year, you should aim at a ski areas that reach 3.000 m and over.
Ski areas and resorts that I can recommend :
Espace Killy :
Val d'Isère : nice resort, thought pricey, with great night life. Wonderfull ski area, mostly on the Tignes side.
Tignes : The resort is not as nice as Val d'Isère, but it is slightly cheaper and closer to the best part of the ski area
Chamonix :
Great "mountaineering" unique atmosphere, scenic views, great domains. Fantastic off piste at the Grands Montets. Domains (Balme-Vallorcine, Brévent-Flégère, Les Grands Montets) are disconnected so you need to take a bus or a car to go from one to another. It is very close to Geneva airport (40 mn or so).
The Three valleys :
Reading your post I would only consider Méribel : huge global ski area, nice resort, good atmosphere...
It is certainly in Chamonix that you will find the most unique atmosphere and scenery. As a US skier it would be probably my best choice. I am not sure though about how crowded it can be at this time of the year. Val d'Isère would be my second choice. Tignes and Méribel the third one.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 13-06-19 13:32; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
proskilab wrote:
Well, I can speak about french resorts :
French resorts are usually not crowded at this time of the year.
I am not sure though about how crowded it can be at this time of the year.
Hmmm.... Confused.com
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Gordyjh,
The type of skiing you like is "too rude to post"?
My imagination is running riot!
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proskilab wrote:
The Three valleys :
I will only consider Méribel
Ironically Meribel is the one place I wouldn't stay. But then I don't do apres which is probably the biggest draw for Meribel.
I've stayed in Le Praz, La Tania, 1850, Les Menuires, Val T - they're all a little bit different but good and I'd have no problem staying their again. Early season I like to stay lower (La Tania say) with some immediate tree skiing as it's the heart of winter and the weather can close in for long periods.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Layne, I agree. Meribel is one of those Marmite places.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Bergmeister,
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@frankacorn, I am not sure I would recommend Milan as the best route from US to Zermatt. The problem is there is no train link. You either have to get a train into Milan (quite a long ride itself) and then fight through a busy Milan Central station or get a bus (which is not that regular) to Domodossola station. Most major US cities have flights to Zurich (or to a lesser extent Geneva). Both those airports have train stations in the airport with direct trains to Visp/Brig where you connect with the train up to Zermatt.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
How about flying from the US to London and then London to Sion. Sion is only about an hours drive from Zermatt. Or train from Sion to Visp then train up to Zermatt. Flights to Sion tend to be quite expensive but very convenient.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Paul Holroyd wrote:
How about flying from the US to London and then London to Sion. Sion is only about an hours drive from Zermatt. Or train from Sion to Visp then train up to Zermatt. Flights to Sion tend to be quite expensive but very convenient.
I think the bigger issue with that is that the only flights to Sion from London are half term (i.e Feb) and only on a Saturday. That was last season. I am not sure Swiss airline has announced its 2020 schedule yet. A startup airline, Powdair, tried to launch a rival service a couple of seasons back but it collapsed before it got started.
Back to the original post, I am not sure I would recommend someone coming from the US to the Alps at Xmas. Yes, lots of the resorts mentioned in this thread can be magical. But the days are short and there is nowhere you are certain of good snow. The last two seasons have been generally good across the Alps at that time but the two seasons before that were not. If I was doing a first ever trip and spending all that money I think I would want to do it in March: longer, sunnier days, near 100% certainty of everything open and very high likelihood of plenty of snow (at least on the ground - no-one can say when it will be coming out of the sky).
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
+1 re avoiding Christmas (and New Year). Unless you have no other option thanks to school holidays or work schedule. We usually go the last week of Jan / 1st week of February: much quieter all 'round and flights are cheaper. Snow is more reliable but I'd admit the days are shorter than in March.
Re flights, a couple of years ago I was on business in Boston and flew Boston->Heathrow then Heathrow->GVA, then got the train from the airport to Martigny, then connection to Riddes, where I was picked up by my daughter who was already out there. I got into the apartment in La Tzoumaz about 22:30 and it was a surprisingly stress-free journey all-in-all. You could do something similar if you were going to Verbier.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Appreciate all the feedback on this thread. Since then I have done a bunch of reading and research - and special thanks to a couple of the snowheads members who have been very kind in messaging me with ideas.
I have a question titled "The Real Deal on Dolomites Skiing?"
I have been posting and getting a lot of feedback on an upcoming Europe ski trip and have become really intrigued by a visit to the Dolomites. The beauty, food and atmosphere sound amazing. Have been focusing on Arabba and more recently Canazei (which seems to have more choice of nice hotels and restaurants).
But as I have read further I have become a little concerned about the skiing itself. I have read a lot of feedback that the runs are nice, cruisy and relaxing, and theres lot of mileage to be had in the Sella Ronda. But I have also read that the runs are not that challenging, the vertical on them is pretty short, the variety is limited...my family are all pretty strong skiers. We are not extreme and can be happy on piste but we are used to doing mogul runs, tree runs with bumps (I know thats less of a thing in Europe) and not just cruisy intermediate stuff. So I am wondering whether we will enjoy the experience of Dolomites but get bored with the skiing?
I realize how hard it is to generalize on terrain this large so I may be totally wrong and there may be a lot of excellent challenging terrain for us to enjoy (maybe just not on the Sella circuit?) but I have read so many reviews that suggest this may not be a great place for people who want more than intermediate skiing? I know this forum is filled with great skiers and snowboarders (I am a boarder by the way so long runs with flat sections are horrible!) and people love the Dolomites, so want to make sure I am not getting a misimpression?
Has me wondering whether we might be better off int he 3V just purely from a ski terrain perspective?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skiing in the Dolomites is definitely more about the views and the food than challenging skiing, but it is a fantastic experience. I am an advanced US based skier and had a wonderful time of a week long trip to the Dolomites a few years ago. I don't think you would be disappointed with it.
PS: Vertical may be short compared to some other European options, but it is more than what you would typically find in the US. The Marmolada cable car will get you close to 6,000 feet and plenty of other places in the general area will allow you to ski 4,000+. There are very few places in NA where you can ski that much vert.
as Mr.Mike has said, more about the views, numerous mountain huts, highly efficient lifts/snowmaking facilities, travelling to different areas everyday
My only worry for you is, what will the snow cover be like at Christmas? :: I've been to the Dolomites twice in January when the only snow was white strips of Artificial down the Piste : Perfectly OK the ski on, but not very wintery....!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 21-06-19 19:38; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
mr. mike wrote:
PS: Vertical may be short compared to some other European options, but it is more than what you would typically find in the US. The Marmolada cable car will get you close to 6,000 feet and plenty of other places in the general area will allow you to ski 4,000+. There are very few places in NA where you can ski that much vert.
Totally!
Another North America based skier here. A typical north America resort has total vertical of 3000', but often only 2000' are "lappable" on a single chair. Many mountains only have chairs that covers 1000-1500'. That's REALLY "short" by euro standards. Jackson Hole, which everyone thought has a long vertical, is only 3000' total. Granted, that can be done in one single cable car ride.
Even a 3000' vertical is still considered by some Euro's as "short"!
@lirong, The Dolomites are absolutely superb. But I do worry that they might not be right for you and particularly not at Christmas.
I am very fortunate. I ski in the Alps several weeks per year and I ski in North America two weeks per year (one week in Steamboat and one week somewhere different each year). I always tell people who have skied only North America: “you must ski the Alps”: and I tell people who have only skied the Alps: “you must ski North America”. Both are fantastic. However, they are different. The groomed trails in the Alps are way better than anything you could ever find in North America. The huge vertical drop itself is mind blowing. However as soon as you want to go away from the groomed trails things get more difficult in Europe. In North America, because of the concept of “in bounds” you can seemlessly progress from groomed trails to mogul runs and tree skiing and other ungroomed stuff. In Europe (ignoring for now itineraries – I’ll come back to them) once you are off the groomed trails you are off piste. Unless you know the area really well or are very good at reading the mountain (very few non-preofessionals are) you could be in serious danger really quickly.
The thing that we have in Europe that is closest to the North American concept of in bounds but off groomed trails are itineraries – but they are a feature of Swiss and Austrian resorts and not the Dolomites (or indeed Italy generally).
If you can afford to go with a guide, European off piste is fantastic.
I am retired and I ski each year with a group of people (mainly also retired) from my former work place. We are roughly 50/50 European/North American. This year we went to the Dolomites (my first ever trip there). We were there early March. The snow was awful. We were going to go off piste with a guide for two days. However we only did one as there did not seem enough snow to warrant a second day. I really enjoyed our off piste day but not all of our group did. However the piste skiing was superb. Their snow making and snow management is second to none. Most of our group are piste skiers so we had a good time. I would say I would prefer off piste but can enjoy piste skiing so had a good time. Unfortunately one of our group is totally an off piste skier, does not like groomed trails at all and he was bored stupid. He is an American but he has skied a lot of Europe – but mainly places that have itineraries and easily accessed off piste.
I have already said I think later in the season would be better. But I also think you might be better somewhere where there are a decent range of itineraries like the 4 valleys in Switzerland or the Arlberg in Austria.
If you do decide to go the Dolomites I hope the snow is good and you enjoy it. It really is a beautiful place.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I did EOSB some years back, which is at 3 Valley.
I found maybe TWO proper bump runs. That's about it! There were other runs that had undefined or irregular lumps, but not really "moguls".
While I enjoy the week of cruising from valley to valley, eating in different restaurants, and seeing changing vista (actually, even the bus ride from Geneva to Val Thoren was a treat in itself!). The skiing I can't say is particularly challenging. Even the 2 bump runs weren't super long. If I were the macho kind, or if I were super-bored, I supposed I could repeat them. But it would have gotten old pretty quick. Fortunately, I simply save my mogul legs for when I get back home!
I honestly never felt any groomed pistes are "challenging" in anyway. That actually goes for both Europe and north America. If piste can be groomed, it can't be all that steep.
I've gone off-piste with others in the group, without guide, by cutting between pistes. I can't say I'm impressed in the choice of the routes, both in terms of snow condition and safety consideration. Of all my skiing in the Alps without guides, moguls and trees were the exception rather than a regular part.
About the only way to get some "challenging" skiing in the Alps, I feel one needs to go off-piste. And for those who aren't used to skiing in non-avi-controlled terrain, that means hiring guides.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Generally agree with all the points @abc has mentioned throughout the thread. Nothing about the things you are looking for makes me think Europe at christmas/new year.
While Europe is as good as anywhere for challenging skiing, you are not going to experience it without a guide. It's also very early for off piste, expect plenty of rocks.
You have to accept that the Europe resort experience is huge km of interlinked pistes, good dining, charming ski villages. If you are looking for a wide range of avalanche controlled terrain you are better off in N America, nothing in Europe compares.
I would be vary wary of travelling such a long distance for what could be quite iffy conditions. If you decide to come at that time of year I would either head high for less risk of low snow cover. Or head to somewhere with excellent snow making but be aware you might be skiing on artificial snow white ribbons with green either side.
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JohnMo wrote:
However as soon as you want to go away from the groomed trails things get more difficult in Europe. In North America, because of the concept of “in bounds” you can seemlessly progress from groomed trails to mogul runs and tree skiing and other ungroomed stuff. In Europe (ignoring for now itineraries – I’ll come back to them) once you are off the groomed trails you are off piste. Unless you know the area really well or are very good at reading the mountain (very few non-preofessionals are) you could be in serious danger really quickly.
Without encouraging novices to go about thing willingly and taking stupid risks I think this is massively overstating things. I've been skiing off piste in the Alps a couple of weeks a year for 20-odd years - predominantly without a guide. And it's actually a lot easier than when I started out from the point of view there is plethora of information on the internet so you can research how the slope angles, the snowpack, the direction the slope is facing etc effect the risk. And even from scratch you can do a bit of research and figure stuff out on the fly pretty well. Anywhere I've been I've been able to find stuff from day 1. In terms of fatalities/serious injury skiing is a very safe sport, even off piste skiing. With all due respect I think you American guys need to chill, relax a bit and enjoy the freedom of the mountain.
JohnMo wrote:
I have already said I think later in the season would be better.
Ultimately it's a punt. Sure the mid-Jan to mid-March period is a more solid bet but I've skied at Criggy for years and apart from the odd stinker (at worst 1 in 10) it's a great time of the year to ski.
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abc wrote:
I did EOSB some years back, which is at 3 Valley.
I found maybe TWO proper bump runs. That's about it! There were other runs that had undefined or irregular lumps, but not really "moguls".
I don't really know how North American skiing works. Over here people don't want to ski moguls from dawn to disk - so yeah certainly on piste there will only be a couple of major mogul pistes in a decent size ski area. But if there hasn't been much fresh snow you can certainly find some great bumps on more obvious and safe off piste areas.
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abc wrote:
I honestly never felt any groomed pistes are "challenging" in anyway. That actually goes for both Europe and north America. If piste can be groomed, it can't be all that steep.
Seems a bit odd.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
abc wrote:
I've gone off-piste with others in the group, without guide, by cutting between pistes. I can't say I'm impressed in the choice of the routes, both in terms of snow condition and safety consideration.
Another really odd statement. Not quite sure what it means to be honest. Care to elaborate.
abc wrote:
Of all my skiing in the Alps without guides, moguls and trees were the exception rather than a regular part.
Moguls, I already commented. Tree skiing. Well it depends where you are. Some areas like Espace Killy, Les Contamines, ADH some that spring to mind, there simply isn't much, if any, tree skiing. That's simple because of the altitude/climate. Paradiski, especially either side of the VE has excellent tree skiing, both on and off piste, which is one of the reasons I like it so much.
abc wrote:
About the only way to get some "challenging" skiing in the Alps, I feel one needs to go off-piste.
Not totally true but certainly it helps.
abc wrote:
And for those who aren't used to skiing in non-avi-controlled terrain, that means hiring guides.
Nope, disagree.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
And it's actually a lot easier than when I started out from the point of view there is plethora of information on the internet so you can research how the slope angles, the snowpack, the direction the slope is facing etc effect the risk.
I would agree that you don't need to be a professional to ski off piste safely. Yes there is more information around now to aid good decision making. However, you still need the basic avy equipment, and knowledge how to use it. There is also the case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" - A good example is people reading the avy bulletin, seeing a low number and deciding that gives them carte blanche to ski any line they want today. Also the more challenging terrain (which is what op is looking for) tends to be more complicated from an avalanche point of view.
Quote:
With all due respect I think you American guys need to chill, relax a bit and enjoy the freedom of the mountain.
I'm European, but ride predominantly in N America. While I do like split boarding and back country days, nothing says freedom quite like being able to look at a resort and say "I want to ski that" without needing a partner, backpack full of equipment, reading the avy bulletin, digging a pit, skiing one at a time stopping at safe islands etc.
Quote:
Seems a bit odd.
Of course a piste can be challenging. And I would suggest winch grooming allows some reasonably steep runs to be groomed. However, if you ski a North American resort you will find the groomers are far less challenging than the other runs. The OP mentioned big sky resort, here is big couloir at big sky http://youtube.com/v/7aj_TUTyc7I ok it is probably one of the most challenging runs they offer, but check out some photos/videos of some of the other areas there - dictator chutes, AtoZ chutes etc. I've never seen a piste offer any kind of comparison.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
If its challenging skiing then Verbier fits the bill. Search for threads by Bobinch to get a feel.
Fly to the closest large airport directly such as Zurich, Milan or Geneva for your chosen destination. Any stops increase the travel time and chance of delay lost luggage etc.
The train ride from Geneva to Verbier goes round the lake and is worth it for the views itself.
Have a blast where ever you go.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
If its challenging skiing then Verbier fits the bill. Search for threads by Bobinch to get a feel.
Yes, but he is skiing off piste. So all the issues bought up about guides, equipment, knowledge, taking kids off-piste etc. come up again. Nobody is saying there is not plenty of challenging skiing in Europe, Chamonix is probably the first place many people think of for challenging terrain. Accessibility/practicality is the concern.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Verbier absolutely fits the bill. Especially for the whole ‘European’ experience. Has some good restaurants, including on-piste and pretty much all of the itineraries are reasonably safe.
The big difference coming from States will be skiing down some of the pistes that are like trying to ski down the high street.
Zermatt is a good call though queues a pain but the Italian side could be an alternative.
Three valleys is huge if you’re used to US resorts but it is quite ‘motorway’. Val Thorens just about as snow sure as you can get with a reasonable amount of skiing.
Val d’Isere, great scenery and skiing.
Zermatt . . .
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
O P must be wondering just what he has started !!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
albob wrote:
O P must be wondering just what he has started !!
Haha I greatly appreciate all the feedback. Didnt mean to start an argument over skiing in Europe vs the US - we more interested in starting a discussion on skiing in the Dolomites vs. Klosters vs 3V
It's basically really hard to advise competent Western US skiers what they should do in Europe because it is likely they have off piste skiing skills equal to or better than many Euro skiers and certainly better than Euro piste skiers. But equally they may have minimal off piste skills in risk management and routefinding.
So that ultimately means you either accept that you'll be sticking to pistes which generally does mean less challenging conditions or that you'll be spending on guides or other education.
The whole where's better schtick is irrelevant - where did it snow most overnight? That's your answer.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Fair point. I think my main point was I've heard that the piste skiing in Dolomites was possible a lot less challenging and varied then, say, 3V or David/Klosters which were other top options I was considering.
This thread went in a different direction and really I was just wondering if that assessment was fair or wrong.
By the way, I don't mind hiring a guide... In fact I intend to. But I realize given the time of year the off-piste will be totally hit or miss, so I am basing a lot of my decision on the reliability and variety/fun/challenge of the piste skiing.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 23-06-19 14:47; edited 1 time in total
So that ultimately means you either accept that you'll be sticking to pistes which generally does mean less challenging conditions or that you'll be spending on guides or other education.
The whole where's better schtick is irrelevant - where did it snow most overnight? That's your answer.
Exactly!
Which steakhouse has the best vegetarian dishes? Pick any! It’s as good as the next.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
For good skiers I would recommend Verbier. You don’t need a guide for the itineraries, the back of Greppon aside maybe, more for the timing on getting the bus back. Chassoure is obvious. As is Gentianne, which has a number of options. And the options off Mont Gele.
After all it is free
After all it is free
lirong wrote:
By the way, I don't mind hiring a guide... In fact I intend to. But I realize given the time of year the off-piste will be totally hit or miss, so I am basing a lot of my decision on the reliability and variety/fun/challenge of the piste skiing.
OK
Pros - Sella Ronda has excellent snowmaking and its fans say the piste skiing is excellent along with the "experience" meaning food, views etc. When there is good snow there is challenging off piste available.
Cons - they often need that great snowmaking. There are limits to any groomer skiing and Euro crowds on groomers at peak holiday times can be unnerving.
On balance if I was making the trip over I'd either decide I was happy with manmade groomers or choose elsewhere with more potential for early natural snowfall and roll the dice.
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Quote:
The big difference coming from States will be skiing down some of the pistes that are like trying to ski down the high street.
@Nickski, I’m not sure I understand what you mean by that statement. (I’ve yet to skied Verbier)
Do you mean it’s busy? Or the piste users are well dress like they’re in a fashion show?
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albob wrote:
O P must be wondering just what he has started !!
Aye. But actually there has been a lot of really interesting posts. Plus, maybe because of the tIme of year and therefore the absence of some of our idiots, the thread has generally stayed away from the willy waving “European skiing great; North American skiing awful” / “North American skiing great; European skiing awful” nonsense.
Someone mentioned Verbier. Given the OP’s criteria I would definitely be a +1 for that. Great area, fantastic pistes and superb itineraries that generally they manage to get up and running fairly early. Someone else mentioned Zermatt. Given the OP’s criteria I would definitely not do Zermatt at Xmas. No-one is a bigger Zermatt fan than me (I live here a significant proportion of the year). Also I will be here at Xmas. However our best itinerary area (Stockhorn) is not even scheduled to open until the third week of January and if it is a poor snow year there is a risk some of the other itineraries won’t be open at Xmas.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
