 Poster: A snowHead
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If thinking about using an Epic or Ikon pass be aware that to get the best deal you have to buy early. The cutoff date is usually made clear and generally will be in October or November.
If you buy later it can be double.
IMHO it makes sense for a European skier coming to the USA for the first time and skiing more than 3 or 4 days to structure their visit around an Epic local pass or possibly an Ikon pass. Make sure you don't get clobbered by blackout dates. Last year I skied for three weeks with 10 days at Beaver and Vail for 650$ at that time a walk up day ticket at Vail was 179$
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cutoff date for the best deals on Epic passes was last Sunday!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For a hard to beat US itinerary for grownups who don't mind driving it's hard to beat this over a couple of weeks
Fly into Denver
Winter Park
Steamboat
Jackson Hole
Deer Valley
Altabird/solibright
Day off in Moab
Aspen
Copper
DIA
Caveat - you need to do a few drives at the end of your ski day only the to and from Jackson legs are particularly arduaous
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@clareholyoak, this thread has been somewhat hijacked, so back to your original question.
Jackson Hole doesn't seem to have announced next year's deals yet, but last year (and from time immemorial) you could combine two deals provided you book in the UK. Deal 1 gives 9 days skiing for the price of 6. Deal 2 allows 1 kid up to 14 to ski free with a paying adult.
That means a family of 4 can ski for 9 days for the cost of 2x adult 6 day passes, making the daily cost per person pretty reasonable. Hotels in Jackson town are often incredibly cheap in winter, too.
Jackson used to be a seriously gnarly resort. The gnarl is still there, but they've made huge strides to raise the resort's appeal for intermediate skiers. It's one of my favourite places on the planet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Jackson used to be a seriously gnarly resort. The gnarl is still there, but they've made huge strides to raise the resort's appeal for intermediate skiers. It's one of my favourite places on the planet. |
Plus the surrounding area is definitely something you don't get in Europe - buffalo, elk herds, moose, Tetons more generally. Ok so there's a Wild West corral driving up Zillertal but...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I once got separated from my wife in Jackson by a moose and her calf which wandered out of the woods and completely blocked the piste. There was no option but to wait until mother and baby decided to move on.
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@Jonny Jones,
If you had come between the moose and spouse I'm sure they wouldn't have hesitated to charge you. You could have charged the moose.
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Dave of the Marmottes[/b], About A-Basin. Couldn't agree more.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"Most avalanches are happening outside resort boundary or well off beaten track, e.g. Cugnai or Grand Vallon in Val, Mickeys ears in Tignes, Valluga or Rendl in St Anton. If you want to go to US and have a sign saying this ungroomed snow is definitely safe, fine, but you don't have to go to US to ski ungroomed."
Most - but not all. We have friends who lost a daughter in an avalanche at Les Arcs - immediately next to a piste and very very close to the bottom of a ski lift. 
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| ItaloSkier wrote: |
Also, I don't understand the description of Europeans not going off the marked runs. Why not? Unless you are in glacial territory, plenty of people leave the marked runs and ski where they want.
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ItaloSkier, you're free to take your own risks and, if something goes wrong, leave behind a grieving family. That's your choice.
But to publicly encourage other skiers, most of whom are likely to have no understanding of avalanch risk, to go off piste with a casual, 'Why not?' is grotesquely cavalier.
There's a world of difference between European off-piste, which is not usually controlled for avalanche risk, and the in-bounds off-piste in most North American resorts which is inspected, blasted and, where necessary, closed. |
Well, I know my limitations and what is smart and not smart and I take into consideration factors like avalanche danger warnings, location (if I eat it here, will someone find me in 70 years?), etc. You may call me cavalier... sorry... grotesquely cavalier but I suspect the average Snowheads poster a) knows better and b) is not swayed by the opinion of a random internet poster.
Let's not pretend that straying off the marked runs is like skiing into the jaws of death. Any skier should use their sense and experience to know what is safe and not safe. I for one think it is OK to find some off piste within reason and not stay "between the sticks" the entire time. The tracks I see at many many European resorts tell me that clearly I'm not alone.
Incidentally, the discounted online price for a pass at Breckenridge for 1 day (for someone who is planning at the last minute) is $99.00 a ticket... mid-May, mountain conditions may be sketchy and in fact posted updates on lift access show that getting to the base will be a bit of a chore. So, cheapest time of the year is still $99.00.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In Canada you can buy season passes, get discount card (usually before dec 31st and sometimes restricted to western Canadians - I got our sunshine cards in a black Friday sale this year), buy tickets in Costco, get late season season passes etc
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
"Most avalanches are happening outside resort boundary or well off beaten track, e.g. Cugnai or Grand Vallon in Val, Mickeys ears in Tignes, Valluga or Rendl in St Anton. If you want to go to US and have a sign saying this ungroomed snow is definitely safe, fine, but you don't have to go to US to ski ungroomed."
Most - but not all. We have friends who lost a daughter in an avalanche at Les Arcs - immediately next to a piste and very very close to the bottom of a ski lift. |
It's a long time ago, but I clearly remember the massive and, sadly, ultimately futile attempt at rescuing two boarders who were riding just off the piste right next to Tigne le Lac in 2004. A moment of risk-taking robbed the pair of a lifetime of riding. Here's the report from the time:
| Quote: |
Three snowboarders triggered an avalanche in the Tufs sector above Tignes at 16h45 today while riding off-piste. The avalanche finished in the lake close to the ski resort.
Sixty rescue workers were involved in the search for the victims including a team of army divers who were training in the resort. Due to the risk of avalanche the rescue workers had to cross the frozen lake with snowmobiles. 250 meters of cables were laid to light the rescue area as darkness fell.
The force of the avalanche had broken through the edge of the lake. One of the boarders was found in a serious condition in a state of hypothermia but the two others had been carried into the frozen Lac de Tignes. The avalanche occured at around 2100 meters on north-west facing slopes. Aged 23, All three were season workers in Val d’Isère and came from the Paris region. This is the second accident in the Tufs sector in a little over a week and highlights the need for careful route planning especially when evaluating terrian hazards such as lakes. |
Just two weeks ago, I was with a guide who pointed out a father skiing with his young son under a large overhang of wind-slab a few yards from the piste in Tignes. The area was well tracked so the pair presumably felt safe, and neither father nor son was carrying any avalanche gear. In our guide's expert opinion, the slope was dangerously unstable and he would not ski it under any circumstances, but I saw dozens of people enjoying the powder without any regard to the dangers.
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| ItaloSkier wrote: |
Let's not pretend that straying off the marked runs is like skiing into the jaws of death. Any skier should use their sense and experience to know what is safe and not safe. I for one think it is OK to find some off piste within reason and not stay "between the sticks" the entire time. The tracks I see at many many European resorts tell me that clearly I'm not alone.
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Its not just Avalanches in Europe... American inbounds 0ff trail is also cleared of rocks fallen trees etc to make it safer.
In Europe it is not just ask Michael Schumacher when he wakes up,
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You know it makes sense.
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sHs were involved at the PSB a few years ago in Tignes with a search just off piste (or in a closed piste). I believe that was UCPA staff doing instructor training without gear and at least one died.
Tignes seems to get more than its fair share of incidents perhaps because proximity to town/lake induces false confidence? Or maybe more people who don't have much clue but are good enough to stay upright offpiste go there?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I had a dream of visiting a resort in the USA.
I suggest you use Google to see what the differences are.
After doing that, I went completely off the idea.
The European resorts have more of what I want and for a fraction of the price. I don't think I would be unusual in coming to that opinion.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Herne9,
Each to their own.
But if you are interested in skiing glades, or extremely steep, controlled and patrolled terrain, or a great selection of mogul runs, I would recommend a rethink. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm kind of with @herne9 now... and I will say, I hate glades. Never found tree skiing of interest, even when I was at my dumbest.
As for Schumacher, we can all come up with stories of this or that happening. We can talk about avalanche deaths in Tignes and we can talk about a child hitting a tree and dying at Breckenridge last month. Schumacher died off piste. Sonny Bono hit a tree at Heavenly. The sport carries risk, on piste, off piste, in bowls, in glades, you name it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Herne9, most winters I price up a trip to North America and an alternative in Europe for our family of five (now all adults). I try to price like-for-like in terms of accommodation quality and convenience, and I include everything: transfers, lift passes, equipment rental and, in Europe, at least three days of guiding so that we can go off piste.
The price difference is usually negligible, with North America winning slightly more often than Europe. Sure, you can ski more cheaply in Europe if you drive, cram into a bijou apartment or share a chalet with strangers. There's nothing wrong with that if you like strangers or have budget constraints; and it's definitely hard to get a really cheap trip to the States. But, on a like-for-like basis, there really is very little difference in price.
Last winter we stayed in a 5* hotel with ski in/out convenience for less than £100/room/night in the UK school holidays for example. Good luck finding a deal like that in Europe.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
@Herne9, most winters I price up a trip to North America and an alternative in Europe for our family of five (now all adults). I try to price like-for-like in terms of accommodation quality and convenience, and I include everything: transfers, lift passes, equipment rental and, in Europe, at least three days of guiding so that we can go off piste.
The price difference is usually negligible, with North America winning slightly more often than Europe. Sure, you can ski more cheaply in Europe if you drive, cram into a bijou apartment or share a chalet with strangers. There's nothing wrong with that if you like strangers or have budget constraints; and it's definitely hard to get a really cheap trip to the States. But, on a like-for-like basis, there really is very little difference in price.
Last winter we stayed in a 5* hotel with ski in/out convenience for less than £100/room/night in the UK school holidays for example. Good luck finding a deal like that in Europe. |
Its funny, I do the same and end up in Europe. I think what impacts both of us is this...
You price out your trip during UK holidays which aren't necessarily when people in the US take their holidays. Likewise, I go during our spring break which does not coincide with spring holidays in Europe. So, our timing impacts our costs, depending which way we go across the pond. I find I can save so much on lift passes and private lessons that I can cover the cost of airfare and then the rest evens out. We also probably think the same but in opposite terms... why ski here when I can get a European experience and you probably think you can get the American experience.
So much is honestly based on personal perspective.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ItaloSkier, you're right that UK holidays are a factor. European prices soar when our schools are on holiday, but American prices stay flat. Another factor is that triple rooms (for our lads) are much easier to come by in North America.
But you're wrong about my personal preference. I love European and North American skiing in equal measure and I try to alternate my trips.
In North America, I love the vibe of easily accessed glades, couloirs, powder, steeps and magnificent bumps. I love the microbreweries, the spacious hotels, the service culture and the deserted pistes.
And in Europe, I love the massive ski areas with endless pistes, homely French restaurants, a sense of skiing from village to village, the history and culture, the wit and company of my favourite guide, and the awesome engineering feats achieved by the lift engineers.
Let's face it: unless you're a grumpy ingrate, there is no such thing as a bad skiing holiday and no point in criticising other people's choices. It's all good.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Let's face it: unless you're a grumpy ingrate, there is no such thing as a bad skiing holiday and no point in criticising other people's choices. It's all good."
No doubt... that's why when I got my new skis, I didn't hesitate to coordinate a quick ski trip. While I'm going to enjoy skiing a day in two different resorts that I've skied before, I was also salivating at the thought of trying other places like Alta, Timberline or somewhere in Tahoe. Can't get enough of trying different places. That's one thing I used to love about Summit County in Colorado and recently loved about Chamonix... ski a different place each day. Awesome!
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Peanuthead: When I said "confined" to pistes I was referring to the vast majority of skiers who are not familiar or competent off-piste IMHO.
Plus without a guide OR special extra-cost insurance, you are NOT covered the moment you leave the "piste" or patrolled area.
I make the distinction because without extra insurance or a guide you can ski a wider area and mixed conditions more easily in the US bowls than in Europe in general.
To go off-piste, outside the bowls in US or off-piste in Europe, without a guide and/or extra insurance (assuming you are knowledgeable, trained and familiar with that resort and run) not only puts your own life in danger but potentially others as well.
There have been examples where a skier has "cut" the slope above others, through lack of training, guide or awareness, and endangered, even killed others below.
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Lol.
People's choices are what they are, just someone else's 'end of process', and they don't reflect in anyway on your own.
The higher prices at the most popular times are understandable (even if I don't like them) from the resorts' perspective and we do try to avoid them by planning our trip outside these times.
I really and sincerely wish I had the responsibilities of someone younger and more care free, but I have a wife that skis, two boys (one skis the other snowboards), cat, dog, mortgage, the full Monty, so any increase in travel or accommodation costs hit us fourfold. With that in mind, there is absolutely no comparison with Europe where we can fill a small chalet or apartment without having to share and are clearly better in the pocket off when compared to the USA.
We all have still four or five seasons to go before off-piste becomes an issue large enough that you cannot ignore it any more, but this is also available in Europe in some of the farther flung destinations away from the Alps and other more popular sites.
One day we will travel to the USA, but just not so soon. Who knows, we may find that our worries were not founded.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Bergmeister,
Don't think you missed anything of consequence.
My point was simply that from a totally personal perspective, costs are always multiplied by four (family members) for travel, accommodation and food, and lift passes, which are all notably higher when travelling to a US destination.
Additionally, as our kids are still small, they would not be able to get full value anyway, so the end result is that we will stick with European destinations for the next 4 or 5 years I think. Those are cheaper to get to for us (as we live in Europe), cheaper accommodation, cheaper lift passes, cheaper (and better) food, larger resorts with more total piste length, etc.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Herne9, Definitely the right choice for you - no point dealing with small kids and jet lag particularly if you just want piste mileage. Nothing wrong with US food BTW in most of the popular ski vicinities - it's easily the equal of Austrian stodge or the like -Mexican, wok bowls etc all freely available and in the fancier resorts often some killer sushi and lobster rolls etc. Jackson has the best restaurants in all Wyoming apparently (because it's where all the money is).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Definitely the right choice for you - no point dealing with small kids and jet lag particularly if you just want piste mileage. Nothing wrong with US food BTW in most of the popular ski vicinities - it's easily the equal of Austrian stodge or the like -Mexican, wok bowls etc all freely available and in the fancier resorts often some killer sushi and lobster rolls etc. Jackson has the best restaurants in all Wyoming apparently (because it's where all the money is).
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It seems to keep coming back to cost. I have been to the USA, Mexico and other places where the USA cultural influence is strong, and I have to disagree with you on the food. It has a uniformly high sugar content with overly sweet sauces on the meat and sickly sweet drinks, even cocktails where the traditional recipe shouldn't result in such a high sugar content.
The worst you can say for European stodge is that it's bland, but at least it is more healthy than the price-equivalent USA offerings.
Of course I can get killer sushi, woks, and fine dining, but the resorts that offer that also show a knock-on effect with increased prices for accommodation and ski passes.
If you think different, I have to start to assume that because you are locally based, you have more direct and ready access to information about better deals, which are just not offered to Europeans looking to book a holiday at a US resort.
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I'm not locally based but have skied in the US and Canada a fair bit. But my perspective is different to yours because I don't have small kids to factor in so don't need slopeside condos, indoor pools etc, So I do road trips with friends or on my own, we stay in perfectly average motels/hotels in towns near to skiing, ask locals where they eat or look for the best taqueria or whatever on Trip Advisor (huge hispanic population around any western ski town so always good Mexican food). I agree on the sugary sauces but you can always ask for them on the side. I generally drink tap water or beer when I'm out so don't have an opinion on cocktails. I do think there is a bit of cultural hypocrisy when people extol the quality of European food - Italy is always good but France, Austria, CH just as likely to be heavy carb, some form of pig or cow, heavy cheese, not much veg. - basically what I'll be cooking in VT next week.
Yes cost is a factor but think Courchevel, St Moritz, Verbier, Lech. The "big" US resorts you have heard about are in that league in their markets and can attract plenty of clientele willing to pay the price. The biggest influencer there is that the average domestic tourist is probably only going for 3 days skiing whereas as a Euro vistor you want 2 weeks to amortise the air fare and 13 days * $20 lunch etc adds up.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Herne9, don't dismiss North America on cost grounds. The wallet-rending costs of skiing with a family were why we first started going to North America.
Families usually have to travel in school holidays when European prices are at their most inflated. If you have three kids, as we do, triple rooms are much easier to find over there than in Europe, which tilts the scales a little further.
The clincher in North America's favour is the availability of family deals. It's really common to find offers that let kids stay, eat and ski free with a paying adult. Even when you pay full price, accommodation and dining are usually much cheaper in the Rockies than the Alps. When our boys were young, we took trips to Big Sky, Panorama and Jackson that were considerably cheaper than anything that travel agents could find for us in Europe
Lessons are more expensive there, it's true. But class sizes are so small that the kids progress with crazy speed, so you soon save money by skiing as a family. You can also book kids lessons by the day, so you don't need to fork out for a full week of ski school. My lads were all comfortably skiing double blacks before they were teenagers due to some incredible Canadian instructors.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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"It seems to keep coming back to cost. I have been to the USA, Mexico and other places where the USA cultural influence is strong, and I have to disagree with you on the food. It has a uniformly high sugar content with overly sweet sauces on the meat and sickly sweet drinks, even cocktails where the traditional recipe shouldn't result in such a high sugar content.
The worst you can say for European stodge is that it's bland, but at least it is more healthy than the price-equivalent USA offerings. "
Yeah... A B S O L U T E L Y true. The food is vastly superior in Europe. You can argue with me all you want but I live in the US and I can tell you that the quality of food offerings are so much better in European resorts. I'll take just about anything in Italy over most places in the US. I was all excited to see that A-Basin opened a place called "Il Rifugio" that basically looks like everything you see in Italy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ItaloSkier wrote: |
Yeah... A B S O L U T E L Y true. The food is vastly superior in Europe. You can argue with me all you want but I live in the US and I can tell you that the quality of food offerings are so much better in European resorts. I'll take just about anything in Italy over most places in the US. I was all excited to see that A-Basin opened a place called "Il Rifugio" that basically looks like everything you see in Italy. |
Have you eaten the glutinous "ribs" in an Austrian apres bar and compared them to some decent dry rub BarBQ joint? No doubt that Italian food is better across the board as its a (the?) point of national pride but I think it's a error to assign culinary excellence on the basics of geography. Best food I've had in Austria - Nepalese curry house run by multi generational Nepalese family. Now there's a good Nepalese place outside Glenwood on the way to Aspen - well worth a stop too and not really much pricier than a Subway.
FTAOD I've been shocked and appalled by what passes for good Thai food in parts of the US (& the price!) and astounded by the usary of some of the pizza delivery places around ski towns. I've advised Tanner Hall on the best burger to order from the kebab stand in Deux Alpes too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ItaloSkier wrote: |
Yeah... A B S O L U T E L Y true. The food is vastly superior in Europe. You can argue with me all you want but I live in the US and I can tell you that the quality of food offerings are so much better in European resorts. I'll take just about anything in Italy over most places in the US. I was all excited to see that A-Basin opened a place called "Il Rifugio" that basically looks like everything you see in Italy. |
Have you eaten the glutinous "ribs" in an Austrian apres bar and compared them to some decent dry rub BarBQ joint? No doubt that Italian food is better across the board as its a (the?) point of national pride but I think it's a error to assign culinary excellence on the basics of geography. Best food I've had in Austria - Nepalese curry house run by multi generational Nepalese family. Now there's a good Nepalese place outside Glenwood on the way to Aspen - well worth a stop too and not really much pricier than a Subway.
FTAOD I've been shocked and appalled by what passes for good Thai food in parts of the US (& the price!) and astounded by the usary of some of the pizza delivery places around ski towns. I've advised Tanner Hall on the best burger to order from the kebab stand in Deux Alpes too. |
I live in Texas and, yes, we're talking about something different now. Ribs, brisket... we have that down. We make fun of most other states that try to pass off BBQ as the real thing. That said, I've had glorious meals at the Hohe Mut in Obergurgl or down in the valley that made me long for more sun and a radler than snow. I'm thinking of what's on the mountain... in the US it is far too often burgers and pizza in cafeteria lines.
For grins, when it comes to Texas, we have places like this in the "tunnel" in an office complex... https://www.fegesbbq.com/ (enjoy the pictures)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You know... aren't we all so opinionated on these topics. I'm putting myself firmly in that camp.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Yes cost is a factor but think Courchevel, St Moritz, Verbier, Lech. The "big" US resorts you have heard about are in that league in their markets and can attract plenty of clientele willing to pay the price. The biggest influencer there is that the average domestic tourist is probably only going for 3 days skiing whereas as a Euro vistor you want 2 weeks to amortise the air fare and 13 days * $20 lunch etc adds up.
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I was thinking of the per day cost of your trip, the only way to make a fair comparison.
I think the food issue comes down to competition. So many European ski resorts are centres of population that grew there before skiing became popular and so the competition is intense to get skiiers in the door during the season. Even those more expensive places in Europe have such a huge number of more attractively priced alternatives. The impression I get of US resorts is that everyone there is 'in on the game' to get as much out of their captive market as possible; actually several reviews I read have outright stated this.
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Have you eaten the glutinous "ribs" in an Austrian apres bar and compared them to some decent dry rub BarBQ joint? No doubt that Italian food is better across the board as its a (the?) point of national pride but I think it's a error to assign culinary excellence on the basics of geography. Best food I've had in Austria - Nepalese curry house run by multi generational Nepalese family. Now there's a good Nepalese place outside Glenwood on the way to Aspen - well worth a stop too and not really much pricier than a Subway.
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Wasn't my intention to make this point at all. That said, the US modal taste seems to be for more sugar, and that's not just an impression, I have had that experience from business trips through the region. Personally, I don't want anything added to my ribs other than pepper, salt, and some herbs to add an accent. If the raw material is good, it will shine through; in fact, if your start with good materials, it's quite an achievement to bug it up. This different approach spans all the types of cuisine in Europe irrespective of if it's a resort or not as Europeans, especially tourists are quite demanding on food quality, while also searching for lower priced eating houses that don't have their reputation or that of the resort factored into their prices.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Herne9, I suspect ultimately we're agreeing. When I'm in the US I pack a sandwich and don't really depend on finding good food on the hill - mainly because the bigger resorts are a bit corporate when it comes to F&B and I'm too cheap to spend $8+ on a single slice of pizza. I then eat in a town rather than in "resort"* and go for stuff I know they do well plus the odd bit of excess like the bottomless shrimp platter .
* Many places the resort is a soulless fabrication of condos and the locals live in nearby towns.
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And No one's even mentioned the horseshhit business of tax+tip not included in prices. Add 25% to everything you see on the menu.
You can of course eat cheap in the US but it's shite food. Anything half decent is way pricier than Europe, period.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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peanuthead,
In Feb in Colorado we paid $12 for excellent burgers and fries (in 2 different towns); $13 for a (colossal) Thai main with rice; $10 for a Burrito with sides; and $12 for a lovely pizza. (5 meals out in 4 different towns).
Yes. Tax and tips were extra. But none of our dining experiences supported your view that "anything half decent is way pricier than Europe. Period." Quite the opposite in fact. 
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@Bergmeister,
Was that in Applebys?
I admit I made a sweeping generalization but you know it's generally true.
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FAQ
I'm sure 
