 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
jonflat2, try completing the turn. If you start a new turn while still facing down the hill, you'll get faster. Just stay in the carve a few seconds longer, until you are going across, or even up the hill, and you'll have better control of your speed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Skis with smaller turn radius? Extreme leg angulation so that you carve tight turns? But you're still going to go quick as carving a ski around on rails doesn't scrub off a lot of speed. Very few people carve linked turns on steep pistes from what I see.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Also, skidding is a totally legitimate tactic to control speed on steep slopes. Just because you can carve doesn't mean you have to do it all the time
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Arno, very true!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
jonflat2, "pure" carving isn't really designed for steep and narrow, because there's not enough space to complete the turns to control speed. Try short-radius turns by incorporating foot steering into the carve. Concentrating on making the pivot point under the feet, rather than at or near the tips of the skis will reduce the skidding element and control speed. Nothing wrong with an element of side slip either!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jonflat2, remember that the whole point of a carved turn is to keep the speed as high as possible throughout the turn (there is also a legitimate argument that it's a more stable turn in rutted crud). To carve linked turns down a slope "completing" every turn (i.e. so you're skiing directly across the slope), and so let the longitudinal friction on the ski slow you down, you need a piste at least twice as wide as the turning radius of the ski (and probably a fair bit wider). So even with a slalom ski you'll need a minimum 20 metre wide slope, that is empty enough for you to use its entire width. Unless you actually want to head down at Mach 7 it's probably not appropriate to carve down a narrow red or black.
A carved turn is not a "better" turn than a skidded one, just a different one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the advice - I'm glad that I'm not committing a cardinal sin by throwing in skidded turns.
It is interesting to note that since starting skiing (not very long ago), everything you seem read these days seems to add up to:
Skidding = v. bad
Carving = good
It seems that the only goal for all the instructors I have had is that one should carve everywhere ... In fact, when I was chatting to my last instructor, she insisted that the ONLY way to ski was to carve - and that any other technique was 'old school'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| jonflat2 wrote: |
| It seems that the only goal for all the instructors I have had is that one should carve everywhere ... In fact, when I was chatting to my last instructor, she insisted that the ONLY way to ski was to carve - and that any other technique was 'old school'. |
Your technique is fine, it's the instructor you need to change!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 9-03-06 13:01; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| laundryman wrote: |
| Concentrating on making the pivot point under the feet, rather than at or near the tips of the skis will reduce the skidding element and control speed. |
Not at all sure about that, I'm afraid. Although its verging a bit off-topic, we've recently been doing exercises at Aldershot trying to minimise the drop in a short radius turn (i.e. to under 2 metres). Unless you jump it completely, the best solution seems to be to feel the bite of the ski into the snow/plastic about half way from boot to tip, and be as gentle as possible with any up/down motion, so maintaining as much pressure as possible on the surface through the second half of the turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
rob@rar.org.uk: Thanks.
I did think of questioning my last instructor on her carving statement - however she was 24 years old, tall, blonde and Swedish, and I was a little tonge-tied!
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 9-03-06 17:01; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
jonflat2, there are many ways to ski, and many ways to turn a ski. The secret of good skiing is knowing which way to use and when, and be able to blend one into another.
It's a bit like driving a car - you can turn it just by turning the steering wheel, and keeping all 4 wheels gripping the road. You can use the hand brake. You can drift a turn... you can end up using opposite lock, power slides, etc. You're not always driving on grippy roads. Sometimes there is ice, gravel, mud, water, whatever, and then it's a case of doing the right thing to control the car where you want to go. If all you do is turn the steering wheel, you may well end up going straight on, rather than round the bend.
(OK, maybe not the best analogy, but I hope you get the idea)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| many ways to turn a ski. |
Are there many ways? I've been told that there are just three, and that all skiing is a blend of these three techniques: foot/leg rotation, using edges/angulation and using pressure. Are there other methods?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
GrahamN, could be, I'm certainly straying to the limits of my competence. I was trying to warn against the 'windscreen-wiper' effect whereby the tips are always down the fall line with the tails skidding from side to side.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
rob@rar.org.uk, you are correct, there are 3 primary ways of turning, but by blending them, you create an almost infinite number of possibilities
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
rob@rar.org.uk, good point, but there are infinite ways to blend those three techniques together. 
jonflat2, remember if you carve turns, your speed will pick up on steeper slopes. Getting used to this speed, accepting it and keeping the carve going are other issues though. But it's a blast trying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk, you are correct, |
Not me, I'm just parroting back what I've been told by some good instructors 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, Oi, are you looking over my shoulder?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
marc gledhill, nah, that would mean I'd be behind you, and let's face it, on those big old slow skis of yours, that won't happen... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
jonflat2, carving does seem to be a holy grail these days. I don't think you can call yourself an advanced skier if you can't do it. That said, it is just one technique for getting down the mountain. I remember doing an off-piste course a few years back with a bunch of skiers you would probably call advanced. There was a huge emphasis on using skidding to control speed. Lots of people were saying "but I've only just learned to carve, now I go back to skidding again."
rob@rar.org.uk, it's any combination of those 3 elements, which gives quite a few combinations 
edit: I obviously wasn't the only one with that thought...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| jonflat2 wrote: |
rob@rar.org.uk: Thanks.
I did think of questioning my last instructor on her carving statement - however she was 24 years old, tall, blonde and Swedish, and was a little tonge-tied! |
I might have been the tongue-tied one in that situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Laundryman:
Sorry - a badly typed message - I meant it was ME that was tongue-tied!
Although she may have been a speachless once she saw how badly I ski....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
....and spell....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
jonflat2, shame on you!
|
Sorry, easyski....  - I thought my original question may have been a niaive one....
I'm off to Norway a week on Sunday, so will have more time to practice carving at the appropriate time, and not ALL the time!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
jonflat2, carving is an interesting topic, since it seems that there are multiple definitions. The most broad version goes something like this: using the edge and sidecut of the ski to shape the turn. The narrowest goes something like this: using only the edge and sidecut of the ski to shape the turn. When most people talk about "carving" these days, they seem to mean the former. This means that you are moving with your skis and the skis are generally moving in the direction that their tips are pointing. In doing this, the skis can drift across the snow a bit and the friction added by that drift is an easy way to control speed.
Skiing this way is possible (and preferable) on all terrain. This in contrast to the old tail swishing approach to skidding turns that has the skis traveling largely in a direction perpendicular to the direction that they are pointed.
I tend to drift more on steeper terrain (like the Beaver Creek downhill course that I skied yesterday; the snow was still mostly the injected version that they prepare for the WC and other races!) than on shallower terrain, and it also makes a difference in the skis that you have (sidecut, tortional strength, etc.).
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
jonflat2, I meant the Swedish lady - not the question!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
the skis can drift across the snow a bit and the friction added by that drift is an easy way to control speed.
|
ssh, so you're not leaving two perfect carved tracks in the snow, but letting the rear of the skis 'step-out' just a fraction through the turn?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
jonflat2, because of the piste width required for pure carves (as GrahamN said above) most people tend to put some skidding into either the start, the end or the start & end of turn to control speed & line - only truly carving on the edges for a proportion of the turn - hence the expression 'skarving'.
True full on carving when space & terrain allows is a real blast though & this is were you'll get the two clean railroad tracks. If the tracks smear, usually at the start or end of the turn, that's were the skidding occurred.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| spyderjon wrote: |
| jonflat2, because of the piste width required for pure carves (as GrahamN said above) most people tend to put some skidding into either the start, the end or the start & end of turn to control speed & line - only truly carving on the edges for a proportion of the turn - hence the expression 'skarving'. |
You don't need more space to make pure carves, just higher edge angles.
Skis that will get from edge to edge the same day help too .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
jonflat2,
You got that right then, don't question a goddess..!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| spyderjon wrote: |
jonflat2, because of the piste width required for pure carves (as GrahamN said above) most people tend to put some skidding into either the start, the end or the start & end of turn to control speed & line - only truly carving on the edges for a proportion of the turn - hence the expression 'skarving'.
True full on carving when space & terrain allows is a real blast though & this is were you'll get the two clean railroad tracks. If the tracks smear, usually at the start or end of the turn, that's were the skidding occurred. |
or just steer the turn all the way through .... the steering input will naturally overpower the ski/snow interaction.... so the turn will not be pure carved but slightly steered.... the turn will be tighter .... (sorry just another option)
I prefer the pivot start with carved bottom turn for tighter turns usually... but can't pull them off without a certain canadian instructor calling the tunes for me...
hero snow - any sort feels ok...
ice/hardpack - whatever i can get away with....
I often see inside ski "smears" in middleish of turn where people do not have good control(me included) ... like a series of sharp edges... rather than a fat shhhmmmmmmeeeerrrr... still not ONE sharp line though... they seem to do better near end of turn with this (practice position for traverse???)
jonflat - re "finishing the turn" ... lots of people say it but it is hard to imagine until you get it.... think of your turns being shaped like the connecting parts in jigsaw puzzles - so they go [/b] right up hill [/b] before starting back down hill.... in this manner you can pretty much stall before starting the next turn....
warnings
a) make sure you can shape a turn - tighten by increase in hip angulation or steering- before you try or
b) have a poo-poo load of room or a very small radius ski or both...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
hmmmm..... me wanders off in confusion again.
I think I'm going back to my old saying of
If I get down the piste in one piece without harming others and with a big smile on my face, I'm ok
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
little tiger, OK, so there I am on my 1989 Rossi 7SKs running across 20m of blue ice. I carve (I think) one clear line down the ice. Am I carving or not? Given that Carving skis haven't been invented?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| David Murdoch wrote: |
| little tiger, OK, so there I am on my 1989 Rossi 7SKs running across 20m of blue ice. I carve (I think) one clear line down the ice. Am I carving or not? Given that Carving skis haven't been invented? |
I know people could carve those old skis (and older ones).... you just had to be better at it!
(helps to know old racers and instructor trainers.... )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Interesting thread. First thing I'd say is to agree completely with the view that theres nothing wrong with a skidded, or perhaps better, "skarved" turn on steeper/narrower runs. By skarve I mean using a bit of rotary/pivot to get the skis more quickly across the fall line and then carving out the end of the turn.
That said, if you do try to ski pure carves on steeper narrower ground here are a few things that I try to work on:
1. I disagree a little with GrahamN's comments here
| Quote: |
jonflat2, remember that the whole point of a carved turn is to keep the speed as high as possible throughout the turn (there is also a legitimate argument that it's a more stable turn in rutted crud). To carve linked turns down a slope "completing" every turn (i.e. so you're skiing directly across the slope), and so let the longitudinal friction on the ski slow you down, you need a piste at least twice as wide as the turning radius of the ski (and probably a fair bit wider). |
The point of a carved turn is to ski the slow line fast but that's not the same as keeping speed as high as possible throughout the turn. Also its not longitudinal friction that is the main device for speed control its GRAVITY! Carve away from the fall-line, indeed uphill, and you shed speed quickly so that you get down to a speed which is sensible to start the "swoop" into the next turn.
2. If the piste is steep you will pick up lots of speed in the swoop so you will need to be heading uphill to shed enough speed. But if the piste is narrow, you may find it difficult to get uphill before you run out of room. If so then you have to tighten the pure carve. The main options are to a) get a ski with more sidecut (obviously tricky in the middle of a run!) or b) get higher edge angles by angulating more/dropping the hip further inside the turn and tipping the feet. The latter takes practice. I'd suggest experimenting with this on easier ground - try seeing how far you can angulate without falling inside - you'll be amazed. You'll also be surprised at the tight turn shape you achieve.
3. snow conditions make a difference. In softer piste the ski can cut a 3-d shape which means it bends more and gives a tighter turn. On very firm/icy conditions you have to angulate even more and that takes real commitment (I'm revealing the limits of my skills here, a racer would find it easy)
4. the more uphill you finish the turn, the more tricky it is to get a nice pure carved entry into the next. YOu really have to work hard at progressively flexing the old outside leg, tipping the outside foot, progressively extending the new outside leg and doing all that smoothly and gently, particularly on hardpack/ice
CAVEAT - in no way am I an instructor, this is just what seems to work for me
cheers,
J
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks everone for the advice ...
As a matter of interest, does anyone have any thoughts on the idea of pressuring the outside ski in order to bend it into a tighter arc?
The idea of getting more edge angle on the skis makes sense, but I've also been told by an instructor that it should be possible during a turn to really push through the outside ski, bending it and making the radius tighter, rather than just letting the ski carve on it's built-in radius.
Any thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
jonflat2, yes, that works!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I try to put even pressure on both skis as they are both on edges so they both will carve the turn. Am I wrong?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
